Ever seen "Sanjay's Super Team"? I know that may not represent Islam (I think it's Buddhism?), but it does prove that people can get along who may not believe in exactly the same way (in this case, a boy and his father). The boy would rather watch superheroes battle wicked villains than worship with his father. The show doesn't necessarily end with the boy believing the same way as his father...but it does show that the boy loves his father and respects him and his beliefs in the way a child would. We can do that over here in the US, or in whatever country we're in. We may not agree with everyone, but all people deserve respect, and we can find things we can agree on and find tolerance for each other.

To be honest, despite all of this, the fact that many Muslim countries, society-wise, still practice things that were abandoned hundreds of years ago by other religions strikes me as odd. And while I also understand that most Muslims are not with these terrorist organizations, I also understand that a very, very large amount of them are, otherwise they wouldn't be in power. While you can make the argument of 'the silent majority,' the silent majority has been armed and trained on various occasions, put into power in others, and still jut lets it all slip away.

I feel like, in the end, the religion itself is broken in a sense, because while what you said is true, that the Qu'ran is more similar to the Bible than different, there are core beliefs of Islam that are absolutely incomprehensible, and should be out of date by now in society, but they aren't, because people desperately cling to them for power. Which brings me to my next point, one that disturbs me, honestly, and may be offensive, but this is what I've learned over the small time that I've actually spent looking into the religion that is Islam.

Muhammad was not only a conqueror and , but he was, in effect, a rapist, and approved of such actions, which is made very clear in the book he wrote himself, as well as being a conqueror and all that. it seems to me, honestly, that the entire religion of Islam is based around a book written by a very clever man who knew that he could gather believers around him and use them to obtain power. And while I cannot confirm, this, of course, that's very much what it appears to be in my eyes.

And while, of course, the two religions are very similar, Jesus preaches a message of love and peace, where Muhammad, in general, preached one of slaughtering everyone who was in the way of Allah, or who isn't a believer. 

While, of course, I haven't read the Qu'ran, I'm familiar enough to know a few radical teachings that should have been phased out by now, but unfortunately, they haven't, and I don't think they will be for a very, very long time to come. Granted, Winston Churchill probably didn't help when he drew up the borders for all of these countries after World War I, but that can't be helped now.

Also, I have to thank you for not pointing to the Crusades, since anyone who thinks a little bit deeper into it can see that not only was the Catholic Church vastly corrupt at the time, but that such things have, as many thing in Islam should have been, phased out by this point in modern history.

Titan127 : I have seen numerous flaws in your post and I'll focus on one of the worst in my opinion:

You say that Muhammad (pbuh) was all these horrible things, a murderer and the like.

You say that you know enough of these teachings but then nowhere in your post do you actually back it up. I want to show you a quote from the qu'ran, I know i'm not gonna change your mind but i still feel like I needed to tell you:

“…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” - The Holy Quran (Chapter Five, Verse 32).

imamonster : Most historical sources will back up my stuff on him being a murderer and the like. I'll get you some citations, it'll just take me a couple of minutes. You are right though, I have a pretty firm set belief on my opinions on Islam. I'm going to have trouble finding anything in the Qu'ran to counter your own though, since I don't know the book and have only read like a chapter and a half of it.

Here's my thing with the permissibility or whatever the word is of rape...

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/rape.aspx

As for the whole thing with Islam generally being permissible of violence against non believers.:
"Fight everyone in the way of Allah and
kill those who disbelieve in Allah."  
Muhammad (Ibn Ishaq 992)

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who
disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads
and strike off every fingertip of them."
"Allah"(Quran 8:12)


Those were actually a lot easier to find than I thought. Further, even in the first chapter of the Qu'ran, it's very evident that the book is very hostile towards those who don't believe in Allah. Literally the first chapter, it's not hard to find. 

Titan127 : i'm not particularly sure how many people you could convince with a link to a website literally founded on bias. just saying.

EDIT: according to this site which is NOT dedicated to defaming the bible, nonbelievers of christianity aren't to be especially well-treated either. just read the first verse. https://www.openbible.info/topics/non_believers

NintendoFanKimmy : I understand that. My only other one at the moment is wikepedia though, searching for more as we speak lol. But quotes from the Quran are certainly credible, aren't they, at least in the context of this discussion.

I wouldn't necessarily call it biased either. I think that the website isn't sugarcoating anything, that's for sure, but generally it seems fairly legitimate.

Titan127 : i added something to my first post, by the way. might want to check that out. also, no offense, but what strikes it as legitimate to you? just wondering what your criteria are . in any case, they seem to be pretty enthusiastic about their stuff, eh?



i highly doubt they'd be curious about (let alone double-check) potential errors and/or the credibility of information from other dubious websites if they're that set on bringing shame to an entire religion. please take my word for it. i LIVE with muslims nine months of the year, and if that isn't reliable enough of a source for you, then i might just not bother anymore. 

finally, i beg you to understand that the majority of "islamic" terrorists are NOT muslims at all, and that they openly defy SEVERAL points made in the qur'an. i'll leave ima to supply you with the specifics if he so wishes, but half of my family is muslim. i trust what they're saying is true. 

please try to carefully consider what you accept as "legitimate" and "unbiased." i don't know about you, but THIS:



definitely isn't the type of site i'd be comfortable consulting with for research. just my two cents.

NintendoFanKimmy : I'll admit to not having seen the side bar, which I notice now, but you're literally contesting one source of dozens that agree on Muhammad's ill-reputed life style. That's basically been your entire argument up to this point, and it's not productive.


"finally, I beg you to understand that the majority of "Islamic" terrorists are NOT Muslims at all, and that they openly defy SEVERAL points made in the Quran. I'll leave ima to supply you with the specifics if he so wishes, but half of my family is muslim. I trust what they're saying is true"

While you, or your family, can claim this as much as you/they want to, I can guarantee that ISIS, the Taliban, and Al Quaeda, which were founded on their interpretations of the Quran, would label your family, and you, as infidels and would more than likely cut off your head for saying such things. There are different interpretations of the religion, for sure, but when the holy scripture clearly says that it's not only acceptable, but encouraged, to kill anyone who doesn't believe in Allah, I've got to give them the more solid point on this one, because I don't know your family, so that's really not a legitimate point.

And as for saying that you won't supply specifics, but it's necessary for me to have a credible source, I find that just a little bit ridiculous, as that sounds like your argument is entirely opinion based, not factual.

Titan127 : From what I've seen you still haven't shown me actual proof other than that shady website.


The reason that she doesn't have to supply proof is because she doesn't make the claims that you make.

You literally stated that you knew sufficient bad teachings for the qu'ran, so you SHOULD be able to back that up, and she from what I've seen, hasn't said stuff like that.

If you could send me some actual credible links this time, it would be greatly appreciated.

Titan127: 

"I'll admit to not having seen the side bar, which I notice now, but you're literally contesting one source of dozens that agree on Muhammad's ill-reputed life style. That's basically been your entire argument up to this point, and it's not productive."

What's been my entire argument up to this point? Could you have left a sentence out, by any chance?

I may be contesting a large number of people, but what does the population of a group have to do with the legitimacy of its message? If we were to abide by the logic implied in your first two sentences, would it not mean that we'd have to listen to terrorists organizations such as IS as well? Like you said, they consist of "a very, very large amount" of people. Understand the fallacy?

In response to the claim you seem so sure of being able to guarantee... interesting. What experience, may I ask, has convinced you to believe that said organizations are fundamentally based on their interpretations of the Qur'an? Oh, and thanks, by the way. The crimes you're confident they would commit against my Muslim family say a lot about how Muslim they are themselves.

However, would you mind providing me with an alternate link to back how "clear" it is that the holy scripture encourages Muslims to kill nonbelievers? I think being open-minded about others people's perspectives is important in a good debate, so I would appreciate the ability to better understand where you're coming from exactly. Thanks in advance.

I decided to exclude the specifics in my previous post as it was not my primary intention to convince you that Muslims are generally good people. My main goal was to imply how important skepticism is when reading information - especially information related to controversial topics. Regrettably, the media has made it difficult for people to even consider adapting their opinions based on newly-acquired knowledge by implanting a subtle yet powerful undercurrent influencing xenophobia. This undercurrent is conveyed by a recurring tendency to exaggerate the glorification of whom we are supposed to view as "good guys" (in this case, Christians) and either undermine or completely ignore the good deeds of whom we are supposed to view as "bad guys" (in this case, Muslims). Police officer Ahmad Merabet, who died while defending Charlie Hebdo against its "Muslim" attackers, suddenly disappeared from the headlines after it was discovered that he himself was Muslim. Rather strange, is it not? How odd the timing was? I personally find it very disturbing that they became quiet about him when they did. To quote his brother, "He was the true face of modern Islam. His murderers were not." Furthermore, do you have any idea how many Muslims are legitimately embarrassed by the crimes committed by terrorists claiming to be Muslim? The hashtag encompassing this is #notinmyname. Check it out sometime. A Muslim politician also stated that what the extremists of the aforementioned incident did was more humiliating to Islam than any anti-Muslim drawing or comic Charlie Hebdo ever created. 

Additionally, Christian terrorists (unusual word combination, huh?) are never referred to as "Christian" on the news. It would ruin the fairy tale, you see. The fairy tale that makes it clear who we are to trust and support and who we are to suspect and condescend to. The crimes committed at the hands of Muslim terrorists, however, are always, ALWAYS attributed to Islam. 

This is why I refuse to judge people. No one is completely responsible for who or what they are influenced by. I try to help, but I do my best not to patronize. 

Several predominantly Muslim countries do indeed possess barbaric customs, but they face a cruel double standard. Issues taking place in predominantly Christian countries such as the United States are not viewed through the same "lens," so to speak. For example, those who condemned the US for having not legalized same-sex marriage in all states until recently said things like "those crazy Americans!" Similar comments are made in response to Klu Klux Klan attacks, along with any other problems occurring within the US. Let's move on to the opposite end of the spectrum now. Say, women not being allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. What do people say? "Those crazy Muslims!" I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make here, but let me ask you one thing. Do you think the Qur'an mentions anything about cars? 

In Lebanon (where I live), same-sex marriage, for example, has not yet been legalized. Despite this, people are learning and growing. My mother, for instance, has one cousin and at least three close friends who are openly gay; she joins them on visits to gay bars quite frequently. Also, only one of my classmates actually identifies as homophobic, and while I am unable to confirm whether or not his parents play a role in this, I can let you in on a potential factor: half of his online friends are the types of people who go around calling each other f*ggots. I'm pretty sure his negative influences aren't all Muslim. What I'm trying to say is every tree has its bad apples, and I don't have enough time to present you with all the evidence it would take, but I suggest becoming friends with or at least talking to a Muslim for a while. How about my cousin? He goes by "greenluigi" on this site. You have Pokémon and Dragon Ball Z in common, for starters .

In conclusion, I did not concoct this post hoping to change your mind, but to open it just a little bit. It saddens me to see how many people are so unwilling to learn or at least scratch the surface of what they're arguing about these days. People who partake in debates with the sole desire to "win" and fierce determination to ensure that their opinions are permanent. It completely defeats the point of debating in the first place. We're here to learn and help each other become more aware. That's why I believe it's important to have an open mind and accept others. 

I symbolized this belief of mine in my story Color Blind. I remember you mentioning that you agreed with its message. That, my friend, means that, in essence, we aren't on such different wavelengths after all .

NintendoFanKimmy : I was pointing out, rightfully, that most of your post had been directed towards the source that I used, one of them, that is, as the other was the Quran, or however it's spelled.

Yes, you are contesting a very large amount of people, no we don't have to listen to them. They are Muslims, that's the religion they follow. Saying they aren't Muslims is foolish denial, at best. That does not mean that you have to listen to them, that would imply that I believe you have to follow their belief systems and such. No, what I'm saying is that they are, in fact, Islamic Terrorists, not Christian, not Hindu, but Muslim.

As for the gauruntee, I cited the Quran there, and we all know ISIS loves cutting people's heads off. I don't understand how that's even debatable. And again, I cited the Qu'ran on what should be done to non-Muslims.

Okay, what I'm getting from the big paragraph is that not all Muslim's are terrorists or believe the way that these terrorists do. I never said that. I said that the terrorist groups such as ISIS are, in fact, comprised of Muslims. Whether or not you want to accept that is up to you, but that's really not even debatable. While you can say they aren't Muslim for not following the specific set of beliefs that others view as Islam, they have interpreted the scriptures differently.

This. I understand what you're saying, with the shootings and such. These aren't terror attacks so much as they are psychologically damaged people shooting up a building. And while you can ask what the difference is, it's pretty simply. One is driven by religion, and the other is not.

And your 'fairy tale' story doesn't really exist from my experiences. I see what you're laying out, but here in America, a man can shoot a police officer, say "In the name of Allah," and the public be told that he's an atheist. That happened in New York. 

This...I'm not really sure how to respond to, but I'll try. The Ku Klux Klan was a very brief thing that really didn't last very long during its period of burning crosses and such, and while it did come back, it wasn't nearly to the same degree. I understand what you're saying, but these are two completely different scales here. As for the cars thing, the Muslim world, at least in many countries, has devalued women to a sickening extent. Whether or not the Quran says anything about cars or women, that's something that's in the religion now, whether or not it evolved into it, such as being civilized did in other sects of Islam and many other religions in general.

I do have a Muslim friend actually, we're not too close, but he's cool. I'm sorry if I came across as hating any and all Muslims, because I assure you that I don't, I don't really have the energy to hate anyone. I'm lazy. :/

Aw hell now you got me feelin' all emotioonal. :/


imamonster : I cited the Quran. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what is.

Titan127 :  

No worries. You didn't come across as hateful, but I was a little worried that you were prone to becoming so. As a result, I just wanted to make sure you understood the proportion of Muslims who are, in fact, making an effort to "catch up with the times," just as several Christians already have and are currently doing. Also, I didn't understand what you said about incorporating rules such as women not being allowed to drive into Islam. "That's something that's in the religion now." Pretty sure that's not how it works, buddy. Saudi Arabia is a COUNTRY, yet the laws it passes are considered "part" of Islam by a number of people for some weird reason that's beyond me. I still wonder why, though. Very strange. Could you let me know where you got that, please? The obsession some people have with tarnishing Islam frightens me sometimes. I wouldn't want to actively antagonize anything, personally. Not as a hobby anyway. 

Lucky you! I'm envious! I'd do anything to be able to say my experiences rendered the "fairy tale" nonexistent, but sadly this isn't true :. Maybe I shouldn't watch the news so much? Probably. Most of it isn't particularly uplifting. It seems I keep up with it enough to notice an unsettling trend, though.

By the way, thanks for the tip, but... I'm aware that IS and the KKK are vastly different in size. I'm pretty sure everyone does . Would be kinda worried if they didn't, haha. Regardless, you'll see that I wasn't even comparing them if you reread the context, dude. I was situating the KKK in the same category of problems as the US taking long to legalize same-sex marriage and Saudi Arabia prohibiting women from driving. Just a reminder.

Anyway, to restate what I said earlier, a great number of Muslims are abandoning outdated and corrupt traditions just like people of other religions. I just think it's important to remember that . You've gotten me rather emotional too! I'm enjoying this, to be honest. Haven't had a good debate in a long while. So thanks! I mean it! I think it's nice to look on the bright side of things and be optimistic whenever possible. In this day and age, it's necessary. These pictures cheer me up a lot < 3.

NintendoFanKimmy : I'll admit, I didn't know that there were all these Muslims standing up to ISIS and the like. I thought there was Al Quaeda/ISIS and then there were the silent majority. The 'part of the religion thing,' looking back, is pretty ignorant. :/ When I hear Middle Eastern countries though, I just generally associate women in burkas with it, but thinking back that doesn't make much sense considering a lot of what you've said so far.

You also have to consider that most of what I keep up with on the news are police shootings and stuff though. And the Tom Brady suspension, but if you're in Lebanon I doubt that you've heard anything about that. xD

I get the analogy, now. I actually recently had a debate with my uncle regarding same-sex marriage, but he's the extreme end of 'hate anyone who's not a heterosexual white christian protestant,' so that was no fun, because he thinks the country should be all white and stuff. I was actually defending Muslims against him, because he thinks there's a conspiracy that all Muslims in America are plotting to take over the country, and me and his son are like "Uh-uh." 

This has been pretty enlightening for me though, so thanks. I didn't know about a lot of the stuff you've mentioned, and I'll take that into account when I look at things in the future.

Zlinqx : I thought your post and this thread idea was great. There's too much Islamic hate, and hate in general, going on in our world today. It's pretty sad that so many of us have to be so judgmental of other people just because they're different from us. I thought everything you said was on point, but I would like to say something. Just like terrorists who kill people in the name of Islam aren't "true" Muslims, Christians who hate on Muslims can't be "true" Christians, because as a Christian, you're supposed to love everyone, and hating an entire religion doesn't demonstrate Christian beliefs or values. 

Titan127 : I admit I haven't read the whole Qu'ran but the parts that I have read I do not remember anything like that.

If you want to could you actually link me not shady website (lol) If I can find my qu'ran i can look up the verse and read it in arabic.

That's another thing with the qu'ran. It was originally written in arabic, which is so complicated in its metaphors, and all that, that it's extremely difficult to translate, resulting in different interpretations.

You are absolutely correct. As I was saying in Lexatom's Death Note usage thread, people should focus on helping others instead of being selfish. Sure ISIS is bad and all, but people shouldn't ignore the harm they brang to others. Muslims and the greater Islamic faith shouldn't be associated with terrorism; it shames us. Awareness should be spread about these terror acts. Discrimination only leads to racial prejudice. Everyone should be equal. Treat others the way you'd want to be. Humility is key, friends.

Whoever disliked greenluigi's post:

I have to ask, why? How is that a post to dislike, it is one of the most respectful posts here.

You might not agree with Islam but his message was more that we should all get along, something that you should agree with imo.

If you don't believe that the qu'ran says that killing people is forbidden:

''“…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” - The Holy Quran (Chapter Five, Verse 32).''