So, I'm just curious about something. What are your views and beliefs of what you need to do to enter Heaven? I really want to know because a little while ago there was a minister at a funeral trying to convert people to Christianity, and he was saying things like "you don't even have to be a good person to get into Heaven! Just pray and believe in God!" Needless to say, that seriously conflicts with my beliefs. Before commenting, I'd like it if you read what I believe, and see if it makes any sense.

I personally believe that in order to gain access to Heaven, you don't have to be a devout christian or follower of God, or have accepted Jesus into your heart. I believe that all you have to do is be a good person. I find it would be unfair to deny access to Heaven to people who never got a chance to learn about God, or to good people who help out their community and help the world but have a different belief. When people say that "God is in all of us", I think that they're right. The part of God that's inside of us is what people call our Moral Compass, or our Conscience. It's what tells us the difference between right and wrong, and it's up to us to listen to it. I believe that so long as you don't do things to hurt people, and you do what you can to help when you can, that's all you need.

Which brings me over to another point. I don't understand why there are so many people who consider themselves followers of God when they ridicule and attack people of the LGBTQ community. I myself am gay, but I don't think I'm doing anything wrong by accepting who I am. I don't think anyone is. It doesn't hurt anyone, in fact it makes some people's lives easier to live. So when people say that "homosexuality will send you to hell", I often find myself asking why they say that.

Thank you for listening to my almost-rant, I tried really hard not to get off-topic. Anyway, now that I've told you my (lengthy) opinion, I'd like to hear from you on this topic.

epicpokenerd! :

The minister is right. Well, I hope he's right, because I don't believe in good people.

No one is good enough. You could go your entire life sinless and you still wouldn't be perfect. Perfection is the requirement, and it is literally impossible for you to achieve it. The only means of going to heaven is a free gift.

If going to heaven is a free gift, then it going to heaven doesn't depend upon us. I don't have to be good, I don't have to be white, I don't have to be tall, I don't have to be Roman Catholic, I don't have to be Baptist, I don't have to be ethnically Jewish, etc. Instead, God gives me salvation, and it has nothing to do with my merits.

Faith is what saves. Believing is the only requirement. But, faith/belief is not a choice. It is a gift from God. If you "choose Jesus", then you have saved yourself, and you decrease the dependence on God's action on the cross.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

epicpokenerd! : I think the most important thing to have in order to reach Heaven is to be a good person. Even though if you're an atheist, black, gay, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc... It does not reflect the person on who you are. In my opinion, you need to be a good person. But, it is a choice, and God will count every single action you do.

So, yeah, I think the requirements to reach Heaven is to be a good person and to have faith in yourself.

I believe the Bible, which states that "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father except by me." This is in the book of John chapter 4 verse 16. 

https://www.vizzed.com/bible/passage.php?book=43&chapter=14&verse=6 

It's sad that people don't believe in God, and if they don't believe in God, then he doesn't accept them... It's the same with us. If someone curses us, we don't accept them. 

The reason it's necessary for people to accept Christ as Savior is that we have turned from him. In the book Of Genesis, Chapter 3, we see that Man disobeyed the ONE rule they had. They ate the fruit, and thus everyone was given the consequence... And, God gave us the way back. 

Since you brought up the LGBTQ thing... I don't like it. I disagree with the views that side has, but I respect them as people. It's their choice, they have to deal with the good or bad consequences of their choice, not me. So, not all are brash or mean... Just because I believe the Bible doesn't mean I can't love the person as I would a brother. But, I can't accept their view, if I don't agree with it either.

epicpokenerd! :

Well, the thing is this.

First of all, everyone has a different standard on right and wrong. Some say it's okay to abort a fetus, unborn child, whatever you want to call it. (To the convenience of your beliefs of course.)

And that's the thing. Right and wrong, are only kindof built into us. We do have a conscious that gives us some functionality, but because of sin, and wrong choices, as well as what we are taught, even that weaker compass Yahova has imparted in our hearts can be destroyed, or weakened.

Hitler thought that he was doing the right thing. Everyone believes that they are doing the right thing. But who's the only one that can tell?

Yahova. The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.


Homosexuality, is a sin as well. The Bible demands in the Old Testament that people who break this commandment be put to death, and some studies on AIDS and such would explain why. Though, I don't put my faith in scientists I don't really know. I did, however, have a gay family member who died from AIDs.

it's not natural, and God didn't design it that way. In fact, God actually refers to it as an abomination.


He gave us an immovable standard at the rocks of Sinai. These commandments were given for our safety and tell us how to operate in this universe and prosper in a world which He created. Many people simply don't care and decided to make up their own standard of right and wrong. And, if it's not Yahova's standard, it's wrong.

Also, Yahova will judge us by His standard and not our own.

The only way to be free from the judgement of Hell is to accept Yahova's saving grace and make a change within our hearts to repent of our sin. (Which means turn away from it.)

In the end, one can say as many words as they want in prayer, and Jesus, aka Yeshua tells us that many people will say "Lord, lord. We have done miracles in your name and have even caste out demons." But Jesus will tell them. "Get away from me you workers of iniquity. I never knew you." To paraphrase the verse if you've seen it.


The most important aspect in being "saved" is where our hearts are. But our fruit will also be a visible sign of our position in our life. Does that make sense?

Oh yeah. Sorry you got a dislike. I wish people would calm down and just discuss stuff rather than dislike posts for no reason. :/

epicpokenerd! :

I think there is a huge chance that if we ever meet, it will be in hell.

But, now that you asked. 

https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp

Sword legion:

For all your pride, I am sure to meet you there also.

My opinion is that Christ forgave us not so that we could freely go into heaven, but so that we would be free from sin. Without Christ, we never had a chance in the first place. Our "Moral Compass" analogy would only be complete if we had a magnet up the sleeve of our arm that holds the compass. What I'm trying to say is, if we don't know god, Our standards will change to fit us, so really, everybody is good by their standards.



Also(Rated M for Maybe you don't want to read this.), sex was designed solely for bearing children, so if it isn't for that purpose, it's wrong. Also, homosexuality is a choice, not a "way you are".

ahkarate :

So you are saying you could be fag too, if you could and your heterosexuality is not a choice. I for one, would like to believe you were born a hetero.

Brigand : I'm not sure what your saying, but what I'm saying is that homosexuality is, by all definitions, wrong. I'm sure god loves all the homos, but he loves racists, slavers, pedophiles, and innocent people just as much; It's the sin that he hates. The only difference between the innocent people and the sinners, as far as God's love is concerned, is that the innocents get to go to heaven.







P.S. Innocent=redeemed. Just in case that was misleading.

ahkarate :

His comment was directed at the "homosexuality is a choice" bit you mentioned above. Basically, he said that your heterosexuality is then a choice, but maybe down deep you're a fag too.

My own words: If homosexuality is a choice, then heterosexuality is a choice. That means we're not born straight or gay, but asexual. We then choose a side as we hit puberty. This removes the body from the equation. Men choose women as sexual partners because that's how we're wired. Most of the time. The men that don't are, very simply, not wired the same. It's a bodily problem, not a problem about choice.

The problem is that homosexual activity is bad, right? So those actions are wrong. I totally agree. But what's worse: a homosexual guy that sleeps with a bunch of people or a straight dude that sleeps with a bunch of people? Neither, they both suck. The real problem isn't homosexuality.

The real problem is that people have sex when they shouldn't with people they shouldn't.

Txgangsta :   You know, I don't think that making a choice once you hit puberty is final. I think that you could turn from either one at anytime. Either way, it should be outlawed. They say homosexuality is not a choice, but It's just as much of a choice as being a pedophile, s***, or rapist. And all, unless they repent from such sins and refrain from them, they will go to hell, as little as we like it or not. But  it's not being hetero and legal that gets you into heaven. In the end, It's God's loving sacrifice.

ahkarate : I went from laughing aloud at your post to being incredibly sad. You're 10! Religious people, you don't see a problem with teaching your kids your beliefs early on? How about this? This is a 10 year old posting on an Internet forum about how homosexuality should be outlawed, how it is a choice, as much of a choice as it is to be a pedophile or a s***. First off, a s*** isn't even any sort of sexual preference, it's just liking a lot of whatever you like, and a rapist is just someone who doesn't ask permission. What makes this even better is all the times you say "I think". Where in your 4th or 5th grade education did you guys start talking about homosexuals, s***s, and rapists? I remember sitting on monkey bars and doing division, for some reason I must have forgot about the pedophiles, homosexuals, and rapists. You "think" we can change from one to the other at anytime? How about you turn gay real quick? I'm serious, go find the kid that gets made fun of the most, chances are he's gay, and just go to town. Or, if you're gay, which a lot of the most bigoted people are, go find a nice girl and do the same thing. Doesn't feel too good does it? Maybe it's because you're born the way that you are.

Below isn't the most current study out there, so it doesn't present some information for the argument I am showing here, but it still gets the point across.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbpu6ne5-cQ

Oh, and to the point of this thread. I live in Florida, so I think I'm adequately prepared for what old Lucy has in store for those of us who don't believe in his worst enemy.

ender44 : Whoever gave you the idea that I was 10!? Seriously! I  am not 10! And no Christian ever taught me about the things described in this thread.

ahkarate : Your birthday on your profile. It states that you are 10

ahkarate : No Christians taught you these things, and I'm sure a scientist didn't tell you either. That doesn't really get you anywhere, as now instead of me being sure you were a child indoctrinated into a mad house that taught you "them queers" were all trying to plan how to take down America and turn everybody gay, I'm now sure that you yourself are just a misinformed person spewing hate on the Internet. Ever met Josh Fuerstein? You would love him. Whether a Christian, Jehovah's Witness, Trekkie, Whovian, or voice in your head told you all these things is completely irrelevant in the face of the fact that just about every last thing you said is completely and utterly wrong.

Also, since you never took the time to tell me how the experiment went, I'm going to assume it produced unwanted results.

ender44 : To be fair, that video was clearly written without input from the Christian perspective. I think we need to see more live debates between leaders on both sides of the fence before going to media to prove our points. The creators of that video are unfairly biased, just as Christians who don't adequately consider the LGBT communities perspective are unfairly biased.

One final note... "Whether a Christian, Jehovah's Witness, Trekkie, Whovian, or voice in your head told you all these things is completely irrelevant in the face of the fact that just about every last thing you said is completely and utterly wrong."

I'm curious, why is it 'completely and utterly wrong'? What is the basis for right and wrong in your argument? If it's your conscious, the feeling in your gut, or simply just what you believe, then you're just as baseless as you claim ahkarate is. Right and Wrong can only be correctly based upon something capable of defining right and wrong, as you and I are not. If you are capable of declaring right from wrong, then I must have the same right (as we are both human), and I could just as logically declare your truths to be wrong, and then they're no longer right and wrong (just our opinions).

That's a key point of the Bible, coincidentally enough. The Bible claims God is capable of creating everything (not just what is physical, but the laws that define how our world works as well). If that's true, then He would be completely valid when defining right from wrong. That's what Christians base our views of right and wrong on.

*coughcough not all those who claim to be Christians actually understand Christianity coughcough*

Also, this thread is going well off-topic. We're discussing views on salvation, not views on homosexuality.

-----

I definitely echo what Tx said. God requires not just being perfect in this life, but also attaining righteousness (right standing with God). Righteousness is something earned by giving back to God, by helping Him, by being more than perfect. Since we are incapable of even reaching the standards of perfection, how much further short do we fall from righteousness? Therefore, the only way we are able to enter heaven is through Jesus and His death/resurrection on the cross.

mrfe : no no no no no no no no no no no no no. The very point of atheism/agnosticism is that we aren't following feelings in our gut. We are following scientific evidence. Secondly, I wasn't talking about right and wrong morally, I think we all have a decent grasp of it with us, assuming we aren't the kind of people who live in padded rooms with straight jackets. I was talking about ahkarate and his baseless beliefs that you can just become straight or gay whenever you feel like it, because that isn't true

But again, I am a man of evidence, so let's provide a few studies.

http://www.livescience.com/50058-being-gay-not-a-choice.html

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gay-gene-discovery-suggests-sexual-orientation-not-choice-1436389

That said, these don't provide the Christian perspective which means, wait what? What do we need the Christian perspective for? It's not like this is a debate I'm bringing up, this is just science. Science doesn't change whether or not a Christian is there to supervise or not. Secondly, even in debates, what do the Christians provide? In the secular world we are providing studies, we are doing research, and from what I can see the Christians haven't revised their point other than what Leviticus has to say about it. Whenever a new point is made it seems Christians just point to that passage and kindly ask us to read it again.

Believing in Christ and accepted him as your Lord and Savior is the only way to get into heaven. As in the Gospel of John 14: 6 Jesus said "I'm the only way into heaven Nobody come through the farther accept through me"  Believing in God does not get one into heaven most people believe in a God but don't believe in Jesus. The Bible is clear accepting Jesus and believing in him is the way in. Romans 10: 9 says If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord and Savior, and repent of your sins you shall be saved. 

However having Jesus as our savior means we shall also bear good fruit and walk righteously. Will we mess up of course. But Accepting Jesus has to be a genuine. You can't accept Jesus and still live the life you did before.   

ender44 : Science isn't infallable. If it was, then everything discovered would become scientific law immediately. Everything science has discovered is only true until it's disproved, however unlikely that may be.

Also, keep in mind that science hasn't explained everything. We don't even fully understand water, let alone more complex things. Evolution, at this point, is just a scientific theory.

Nothing is 100% provable through science, by science's very definition. We're consistently trying to disprove things in science, which is how we can become more confident in our discoveries (assuming they pass our experiments). You're speaking as though a couple different experiments absolutely prove that being gay isn't a choice, yet that violates the basis of science itself. The evidence you mentioned suggests that being gay may not be a choice, but it's still a hypothesis at this point.

Let's hear from Ron Gold, one of the founders of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force.

"As a long-term PFLAG member and an early gay activist (I was one of the five original founders of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and a principal lobbyist for the removal of homosexuality from the American Psychiatric Association sicklist), I thought I might add my two cents to the discussion. I'd appreciate it if you'd share my views with the board.

First, about the science of the thing. My reading of the literature gives me no cause (despite highly publicized research by Simon LeVay and others) to believe that there is any physical, chemical or genetic difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals. Indeed, I think the current data leads to the inescapable conclusion that all human beings are born with the capacity for both homosexual and heterosexual responses. Preferences for one or the other seem, in most cases, to be fairly fixed by the age of six, but within the species homosexuality and heterosexuality do not appear to be discrete entities, with preferences running the continuum from exclusivity at both ends to genuine bisexuality in the middle. Even within individuals there is ample evidence that people can and do change, whether situationally (as in same-sex settings like prisons) or culturally (as in virulently homophobic societies)."

That's pretty self-explanatory.

Why do I suggest considering the arguments of all sides of the equation? That's how science is conducted. You take all aspect of something, and test it based upon a specific set of conditions. We're discussing whether being gay is a choice, how do all sides of the argument answer the question?

"even in debates, what do the Christians provide?"

Feel free to ask Isaac Newton, Blaise Pascal, Michael Faraday, Johannes Kepler, Gregor Mendel, or many other Christian scientists. I'm sure you'll find something.