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Do we really need the electoral college?

 

11-09-16 08:15 PM
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Yet again, the winner of the popular vote in America has lost the election. Yes, more people voted for Hillary Clinton, yet Donald Trump won. Last time we had the loser of the popular vote win the election, it turned into the failure we now know as the Bush administration. You can't fault the candidates since it's not under their control, but the whole thing is dumb, in my opinion.

As seen yesterday, the loser of the popular vote can very realistically win the election. We are essentially putting a value on people and their votes. George is a conservative living in California. Mike is a conservative living in North Carolina. Guess what? George's vote means jack squat, while Mike's vote could be the difference in the election. Why must we do this? Aren't we all supposed to be equal?

This also makes campaigning really unfair. States like California and Texas will likely get very little campaign attention, while swing states like Florida will get TONS of attention. The President of the US is supposed to be the leader of the WHOLE country, so they should campaign in a relatively even and spread out manner, so they can reach ALL of their future people. Again, you can't blame candidates as they're only doing stuff that will better their chances of winning, like any true competitor. At the end of the day, the electoral college might have been good in 1787, when it was formed, but it's massively outdated and I think it really needs to go.

So how about you guys? What are your thoughts on having the electoral college?
Yet again, the winner of the popular vote in America has lost the election. Yes, more people voted for Hillary Clinton, yet Donald Trump won. Last time we had the loser of the popular vote win the election, it turned into the failure we now know as the Bush administration. You can't fault the candidates since it's not under their control, but the whole thing is dumb, in my opinion.

As seen yesterday, the loser of the popular vote can very realistically win the election. We are essentially putting a value on people and their votes. George is a conservative living in California. Mike is a conservative living in North Carolina. Guess what? George's vote means jack squat, while Mike's vote could be the difference in the election. Why must we do this? Aren't we all supposed to be equal?

This also makes campaigning really unfair. States like California and Texas will likely get very little campaign attention, while swing states like Florida will get TONS of attention. The President of the US is supposed to be the leader of the WHOLE country, so they should campaign in a relatively even and spread out manner, so they can reach ALL of their future people. Again, you can't blame candidates as they're only doing stuff that will better their chances of winning, like any true competitor. At the end of the day, the electoral college might have been good in 1787, when it was formed, but it's massively outdated and I think it really needs to go.

So how about you guys? What are your thoughts on having the electoral college?
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(edited by RDay13 on 11-09-16 08:19 PM)     Post Rating: 3   Liked By: , Mynamescox44, ZeroTails,

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11-09-16 08:27 PM
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You wouldn't be complaining if Hillary won the election but lost the popular vote.
You wouldn't be complaining if Hillary won the election but lost the popular vote.
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11-09-16 08:30 PM
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Maybe I wouldn't, but that doesn't take away the relevancy of my question, does it?

Thanks for your all of your time and your very thoughtful reply.

Maybe I wouldn't, but that doesn't take away the relevancy of my question, does it?

Thanks for your all of your time and your very thoughtful reply.

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(edited by RDay13 on 11-09-16 08:33 PM)    

11-09-16 08:32 PM
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I pretty much summed up my thoughts in the thread by Zlinqx. The Electoral College is something that at the bare minimum needs to be reformed, if not gotten ridden of entirely (and that post was made before the results were decided, so it's not like I was biased, nor really care all that much how things turned out).

https://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=97473&ppp=50&page=0#1312981
I pretty much summed up my thoughts in the thread by Zlinqx. The Electoral College is something that at the bare minimum needs to be reformed, if not gotten ridden of entirely (and that post was made before the results were decided, so it's not like I was biased, nor really care all that much how things turned out).

https://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=97473&ppp=50&page=0#1312981
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11-09-16 08:46 PM
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Life isn't fair but the whole race to 270 is such a bs system. It means someone can become elected president before peoples votes are even counted. Poor people on the west coast might as well not vote at all. The system needs to be reformed to popular vote only just like how ballot measures are decided state to state.
Life isn't fair but the whole race to 270 is such a bs system. It means someone can become elected president before peoples votes are even counted. Poor people on the west coast might as well not vote at all. The system needs to be reformed to popular vote only just like how ballot measures are decided state to state.
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11-09-16 08:49 PM
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Mynamescox44 : I think you're confusing how candidates are picked in the primaries with how the President is picked in the general election.
Mynamescox44 : I think you're confusing how candidates are picked in the primaries with how the President is picked in the general election.
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11-09-16 09:04 PM
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geeogree :  
There may be around half or so states that have laws that require Electors to give votes to the state's popular vote winner, but the rest of them have absolutely no regulations on who those Electors actually vote for. Obviously the people affiliated with their own party are going to vote that way, as well as it being considered common practice, but they're not actually "required" to do so in the states lacking laws saying they have to (and there is zero Federal level legislation that requires them to vote in any way).

Just for a quick reference of how the Electoral College works for anyone interested-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/06/what-is-the-electoral-college_n_2078970.html
geeogree :  
There may be around half or so states that have laws that require Electors to give votes to the state's popular vote winner, but the rest of them have absolutely no regulations on who those Electors actually vote for. Obviously the people affiliated with their own party are going to vote that way, as well as it being considered common practice, but they're not actually "required" to do so in the states lacking laws saying they have to (and there is zero Federal level legislation that requires them to vote in any way).

Just for a quick reference of how the Electoral College works for anyone interested-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/06/what-is-the-electoral-college_n_2078970.html
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(edited by Mynamescox44 on 11-09-16 09:05 PM)    

11-09-16 09:13 PM
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Actually that's not true. Obama's last term he lost popular vote. In fact several states threatened to secede because of it. Also Clinton (Bill) lost popular before Bush and still won.


To the question at hand: no, we don't need it. It should be abolished. However whether Trump got less votes or not is actually unknown since something like twenty two states never finished counting their votes because their state was too far in favor of one or the other for the rest of the votes to matter. Trump was leading in most of those states, so it's likely that the outcome was at least much closer than the totals we have indicate.


But hey, we've seen our last two liberal presidents get in this way, so it swings that way for a conservative for once. I for one am glad it did. I think another Clinton administration would have destroyed us. Literally.


So yes, I'd like to abolish the electoral system it's pointless I think.
Actually that's not true. Obama's last term he lost popular vote. In fact several states threatened to secede because of it. Also Clinton (Bill) lost popular before Bush and still won.


To the question at hand: no, we don't need it. It should be abolished. However whether Trump got less votes or not is actually unknown since something like twenty two states never finished counting their votes because their state was too far in favor of one or the other for the rest of the votes to matter. Trump was leading in most of those states, so it's likely that the outcome was at least much closer than the totals we have indicate.


But hey, we've seen our last two liberal presidents get in this way, so it swings that way for a conservative for once. I for one am glad it did. I think another Clinton administration would have destroyed us. Literally.


So yes, I'd like to abolish the electoral system it's pointless I think.
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11-09-16 09:20 PM
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Eirinn : Hey thanks for posting. I loved your post as you agree with me about the issue even though our political views are not the same.

A couple of things though. " Obama's last term he lost popular vote." He actually ended up winning by 5 million according to a few of my sources. I maybe be wrong about this one because your point about states threatening to secede.

"Also Clinton (Bill) lost popular before Bush and still won."

I should have been more clear about this one. I was referring to George W. Bush, who lost to Al Gore in the popular vote by about half a million, but won the electoral college.

Eirinn : Hey thanks for posting. I loved your post as you agree with me about the issue even though our political views are not the same.

A couple of things though. " Obama's last term he lost popular vote." He actually ended up winning by 5 million according to a few of my sources. I maybe be wrong about this one because your point about states threatening to secede.

"Also Clinton (Bill) lost popular before Bush and still won."

I should have been more clear about this one. I was referring to George W. Bush, who lost to Al Gore in the popular vote by about half a million, but won the electoral college.

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11-09-16 09:23 PM
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Eirinn : Last time I checked, wasn't Hilary also leading by like 200K votes which is super small since there are millions of votes? That'sa pretty small margin.

Anyways, while I do think that a Trump presidency is better than a Hilary one and am glad that Trump won, I do think that the electoral college is useless. It basically means that your vote doesn't count (except in some situations), and then people wonder why other people are voting for harambe or john cena and not taking it seriously.

And yes, I do understand that the US is a representative democracy and not a true democracy. And for good reason. But I think the people should be able to elect their representatives and not the representatives themselves if that makes sense.
Eirinn : Last time I checked, wasn't Hilary also leading by like 200K votes which is super small since there are millions of votes? That'sa pretty small margin.

Anyways, while I do think that a Trump presidency is better than a Hilary one and am glad that Trump won, I do think that the electoral college is useless. It basically means that your vote doesn't count (except in some situations), and then people wonder why other people are voting for harambe or john cena and not taking it seriously.

And yes, I do understand that the US is a representative democracy and not a true democracy. And for good reason. But I think the people should be able to elect their representatives and not the representatives themselves if that makes sense.
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I don't think we need it, sometimes it just results in so much extra work that could be avoided. At times it has helped but things need to be simplified if more people are going to get on board with politics.
I don't think we need it, sometimes it just results in so much extra work that could be avoided. At times it has helped but things need to be simplified if more people are going to get on board with politics.
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I do think the Electoral College is unneeded. And yes,Clinton won the popular vote...for now. There are still votes that have not been counted yet. But then again,everyone kept saying Trump cannot win and the will of the people proved them wrong.

As for the Harambe and John Cena voting crap,they do that for views and nothing else. They wanted to write stupid crap like "!@#$s out for Harambe." and stuff like that. They did not want to have to drag their fat,lazy,apathetic butts to their nearest polling area,show ID,and then actually have to cast a vote.

Besides,do you really want what would basically be a 3rd term for Obama?
I do think the Electoral College is unneeded. And yes,Clinton won the popular vote...for now. There are still votes that have not been counted yet. But then again,everyone kept saying Trump cannot win and the will of the people proved them wrong.

As for the Harambe and John Cena voting crap,they do that for views and nothing else. They wanted to write stupid crap like "!@#$s out for Harambe." and stuff like that. They did not want to have to drag their fat,lazy,apathetic butts to their nearest polling area,show ID,and then actually have to cast a vote.

Besides,do you really want what would basically be a 3rd term for Obama?
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11-09-16 10:05 PM
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Thanks for not going all bananas on me for disagreeing. If only everyone handled political discussion that way.

As for the Bush/Clinton thing, I meant Bill's second term (I think it was his second), not his first. Frankly I was too young to recall who he ran against either time. My first fully aware election was Bush v Gore. And yeah I was pulling for Bush then. :3 I'm conservative, not for the sake of aligning with a certain party, but because of my personal moral and spiritual values and beliefs. And I actually liked Bush. dun hate me!

As for Obama, I can't say 100%, but I do remember there being a huge fuss about it and my state was one of the ones threatening to secede. I was torn on the matter personally. I wanted it but I also knew it would probably end in at least one of the two countries getting attacked and defeated due to dividing our power. And at the same time I kind of just didn't want it.


EDIT: I stand corrected. Looks like Clinton did not lose popular, and possible Obama didn't either. My bad.
Thanks for not going all bananas on me for disagreeing. If only everyone handled political discussion that way.

As for the Bush/Clinton thing, I meant Bill's second term (I think it was his second), not his first. Frankly I was too young to recall who he ran against either time. My first fully aware election was Bush v Gore. And yeah I was pulling for Bush then. :3 I'm conservative, not for the sake of aligning with a certain party, but because of my personal moral and spiritual values and beliefs. And I actually liked Bush. dun hate me!

As for Obama, I can't say 100%, but I do remember there being a huge fuss about it and my state was one of the ones threatening to secede. I was torn on the matter personally. I wanted it but I also knew it would probably end in at least one of the two countries getting attacked and defeated due to dividing our power. And at the same time I kind of just didn't want it.


EDIT: I stand corrected. Looks like Clinton did not lose popular, and possible Obama didn't either. My bad.
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11-10-16 01:20 AM
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Do you guys want the 1 reason why you don't want to lose the electoral college? Voter Fraud.

If all you need to do is maximize the total number of votes rather than trying to swing certain states in your candidates favor then voter fraud becomes not only easier but far more lucrative.

Also, some have expressed concern that the current system ignores states that are firmly in 1 parties control (California or Texas are always good examples of that) but if popular vote was key then most candidates would centralize their time in big cities or states with big populations and ignore a lot of the smaller states that are better represented nationally in the electoral college.

It's not that bad of a system now that I've researched it a bit more.
Do you guys want the 1 reason why you don't want to lose the electoral college? Voter Fraud.

If all you need to do is maximize the total number of votes rather than trying to swing certain states in your candidates favor then voter fraud becomes not only easier but far more lucrative.

Also, some have expressed concern that the current system ignores states that are firmly in 1 parties control (California or Texas are always good examples of that) but if popular vote was key then most candidates would centralize their time in big cities or states with big populations and ignore a lot of the smaller states that are better represented nationally in the electoral college.

It's not that bad of a system now that I've researched it a bit more.
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11-10-16 03:00 AM
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Eirinn : I would say your statement of "it swinging this way for conservatives for once" is misleading. I think it goes back and forth quite a lot. The same was the case with Bush vs Gore where Gore had more votes. If anything I think it has happened more that Republicans have won while Democrats have had the popular vote at least during the past few elections. However that's irrelevant to the question at hand.

I definitely agree that if anything it should motivate a change to the system (though I already posted about that in the thread I made). I would like to see the US change to a proportional democracy, that way every vote actually will matter in theory even if you vote for a party that doesn't stand a chance of winning (third parties). Because they could still have influence in government. Additionally votes would always be worth the same regardless of where in the US you live.
Eirinn : I would say your statement of "it swinging this way for conservatives for once" is misleading. I think it goes back and forth quite a lot. The same was the case with Bush vs Gore where Gore had more votes. If anything I think it has happened more that Republicans have won while Democrats have had the popular vote at least during the past few elections. However that's irrelevant to the question at hand.

I definitely agree that if anything it should motivate a change to the system (though I already posted about that in the thread I made). I would like to see the US change to a proportional democracy, that way every vote actually will matter in theory even if you vote for a party that doesn't stand a chance of winning (third parties). Because they could still have influence in government. Additionally votes would always be worth the same regardless of where in the US you live.
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I didn't vote for neither Trump or Hillary (this is so I am not accused of being biased). I think the electoral system is pointless and violates our own rights. As you said, some people should not even bother voting because their vote indeed does not count. I live in Florida and Marco Rubio and Donald Trump where just minutes away from me. I could have had a nice BBQ lunch with Marco Rubio for FREE...How many can say that? Not that I bothered to meet any of them or any political candidate for that matter since I think they are a bunch of morons but, my point is as you mentioned, places like Florida are bombarded with political campaigns yet other states get complete ignored and it's all because of the electoral votes not the people as a whole. I would feel the same way if Hillary Clinton had won. I understand some states have more population but, that should not give that state more power over another in terms of deciding who gets to be president. I think popular vote should be the only determination of who wins the presidency because it is what most of the people want- we are supposed to be a Democracy after all. 
I didn't vote for neither Trump or Hillary (this is so I am not accused of being biased). I think the electoral system is pointless and violates our own rights. As you said, some people should not even bother voting because their vote indeed does not count. I live in Florida and Marco Rubio and Donald Trump where just minutes away from me. I could have had a nice BBQ lunch with Marco Rubio for FREE...How many can say that? Not that I bothered to meet any of them or any political candidate for that matter since I think they are a bunch of morons but, my point is as you mentioned, places like Florida are bombarded with political campaigns yet other states get complete ignored and it's all because of the electoral votes not the people as a whole. I would feel the same way if Hillary Clinton had won. I understand some states have more population but, that should not give that state more power over another in terms of deciding who gets to be president. I think popular vote should be the only determination of who wins the presidency because it is what most of the people want- we are supposed to be a Democracy after all. 
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11-10-16 10:44 AM
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I get it George. It is akin to The Great Comprise to which we have the Senate (2 senators per state) and the House of Representatives (based on population). On paper,it seems to be fair enough. But,we still have the same issue,that the states that have the largest populations (hence the huge numbers for states like California) still get their way. Voter Fraud still happens even under our current system like in the 2000 election.

The reason I voted is because I am sick of the business as usual. Even though I knew my state would vote for Clinton,I wanted to make my feelings known. I guess Obama did one thing right. The whole country hates him and in a way brought us together.
I get it George. It is akin to The Great Comprise to which we have the Senate (2 senators per state) and the House of Representatives (based on population). On paper,it seems to be fair enough. But,we still have the same issue,that the states that have the largest populations (hence the huge numbers for states like California) still get their way. Voter Fraud still happens even under our current system like in the 2000 election.

The reason I voted is because I am sick of the business as usual. Even though I knew my state would vote for Clinton,I wanted to make my feelings known. I guess Obama did one thing right. The whole country hates him and in a way brought us together.
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RDay13 : Exactly! The Electoral College is unnecessary and could/should be abolished. Hillary Clinton was basically Al Gored on the 8th but the margin was wider than it was in 2000 (They were a lot close so I imagine there were many too close to calls. I wouldn't be surprised if all 50 states did come in like that because of it) I also should've known Trump was gonna win as the weather in my opinion was extremely similar to what it was in the fall of 2000 when George Bush, a republican won so if we get weather like this again during future elections, then it's a sign a republican is gonna become our president. If Fall is cool/cold then that most likely means a democrat is gonna be elected (This is something we saw with Obama) I'm not sure what the weather was like when Regan, Bush Sr. and Clinton were elected but if the fall leading up to the Regan and Bush Sr. victories was warm while the fall leading up to Clinton's victory was cool/cold then that means the type of weather the US experiences in the fall leading to the presidential election predicts who will win. It will be interesting to see what happens with Fall 2020's weather and who gets elected. I think I may be on to something but I'll check weather records for 80, 84, 88, 92 and 96 and will report here but with that aside for now, I think the popular vote should only matter. While I don't see voting like we have done going away, it will be the popular vote that determines whether a state goes red, blue or half and half (Half red, half blue) Total votes will still be shown but if the Republican has less of a popular vote than the Democrat than the Democrat would win (Meaning the total votes will not be used and only displayed for educational purposes etc) Again, as I said above I will edit this after I go through the weather records for 80, 84, 88, 92 and 96.

EDIT: 1980, 84 and 88 all featured warm falls while 92 and 96 featured cold falls. Anyone notice anything interesting there? I think I'm on to something here. Hmmmm? I'm gonna check out other years and see what they pull up.

EDIT 2: Although a few years did not follow this trend, the majority of them did with 52 and 56 having warm falls with a republican in office. 1960-1968 which featured a democrat as president featured cold falls.
RDay13 : Exactly! The Electoral College is unnecessary and could/should be abolished. Hillary Clinton was basically Al Gored on the 8th but the margin was wider than it was in 2000 (They were a lot close so I imagine there were many too close to calls. I wouldn't be surprised if all 50 states did come in like that because of it) I also should've known Trump was gonna win as the weather in my opinion was extremely similar to what it was in the fall of 2000 when George Bush, a republican won so if we get weather like this again during future elections, then it's a sign a republican is gonna become our president. If Fall is cool/cold then that most likely means a democrat is gonna be elected (This is something we saw with Obama) I'm not sure what the weather was like when Regan, Bush Sr. and Clinton were elected but if the fall leading up to the Regan and Bush Sr. victories was warm while the fall leading up to Clinton's victory was cool/cold then that means the type of weather the US experiences in the fall leading to the presidential election predicts who will win. It will be interesting to see what happens with Fall 2020's weather and who gets elected. I think I may be on to something but I'll check weather records for 80, 84, 88, 92 and 96 and will report here but with that aside for now, I think the popular vote should only matter. While I don't see voting like we have done going away, it will be the popular vote that determines whether a state goes red, blue or half and half (Half red, half blue) Total votes will still be shown but if the Republican has less of a popular vote than the Democrat than the Democrat would win (Meaning the total votes will not be used and only displayed for educational purposes etc) Again, as I said above I will edit this after I go through the weather records for 80, 84, 88, 92 and 96.

EDIT: 1980, 84 and 88 all featured warm falls while 92 and 96 featured cold falls. Anyone notice anything interesting there? I think I'm on to something here. Hmmmm? I'm gonna check out other years and see what they pull up.

EDIT 2: Although a few years did not follow this trend, the majority of them did with 52 and 56 having warm falls with a republican in office. 1960-1968 which featured a democrat as president featured cold falls.
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(edited by Pokemonfan1000 on 11-10-16 06:32 PM)    

11-10-16 07:41 PM
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Zlinqx : Like I said in a later post, according to Wikipedia (holder of all 100% legitimate knowledge, amirite?) apparently my previous info was off, though I know for a fact that it was at least initially said that Obama lost the popular vote in 2012 hence the threat to secede being issued by several states, one of which I live in. No idea how we went from that to "he won by five million". Honestly at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I'd be inclined to believe that those numbers were touched up after he had already won by electoral votes and some folks just decided to pretty it up. The secession threats over popular vote were definitely real and even on the news. I was quite concerned while it was going on.


And again, according to Wikipedia (who I have no doubt were wrong about Obama's second term) all but one case of popular vote loser winning has been for Republicans, and one was for Democrat-Republican John Adams.

But in the end, as a believer I have to concede that the Bible says God appoints over the kingdoms of men whomsoever He will. As such I can't say much regardless, even when a win is blatantly crooked.

Finally don't forget that in this election we had reports from state governments that dead people were voting, and some who misspelled their names on the ballots were contacted about it and they said they hadn't voted. Regardless of who those votes were for (was never specified to my knowledge) voter fraud was confirmed in many separate cases. That's something we need to focus on before worrying with this system. Then after we find a way to fix that, we should do something about this.

I personally side with George Washington when he said we should not have political parties at all. He said they would divide the nation. The only way to have a fair election is to do just that I think.


Oh and it would be so awesome if election talk could die already. Lol We've had to put up with it for nearly two years now. Let's rest for two more.
If I fail to reply to further posts, please don't be offended. I just want to forget and move on now that it's finally over (thank God).
Zlinqx : Like I said in a later post, according to Wikipedia (holder of all 100% legitimate knowledge, amirite?) apparently my previous info was off, though I know for a fact that it was at least initially said that Obama lost the popular vote in 2012 hence the threat to secede being issued by several states, one of which I live in. No idea how we went from that to "he won by five million". Honestly at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I'd be inclined to believe that those numbers were touched up after he had already won by electoral votes and some folks just decided to pretty it up. The secession threats over popular vote were definitely real and even on the news. I was quite concerned while it was going on.


And again, according to Wikipedia (who I have no doubt were wrong about Obama's second term) all but one case of popular vote loser winning has been for Republicans, and one was for Democrat-Republican John Adams.

But in the end, as a believer I have to concede that the Bible says God appoints over the kingdoms of men whomsoever He will. As such I can't say much regardless, even when a win is blatantly crooked.

Finally don't forget that in this election we had reports from state governments that dead people were voting, and some who misspelled their names on the ballots were contacted about it and they said they hadn't voted. Regardless of who those votes were for (was never specified to my knowledge) voter fraud was confirmed in many separate cases. That's something we need to focus on before worrying with this system. Then after we find a way to fix that, we should do something about this.

I personally side with George Washington when he said we should not have political parties at all. He said they would divide the nation. The only way to have a fair election is to do just that I think.


Oh and it would be so awesome if election talk could die already. Lol We've had to put up with it for nearly two years now. Let's rest for two more.
If I fail to reply to further posts, please don't be offended. I just want to forget and move on now that it's finally over (thank God).
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11-11-16 01:37 AM
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