I have been wanting to post about this for quite some time. I do not know if this is even in the right spot or not, or if there is already a thread that will embody what I am saying, but if either of these are true, feel free to fix my mess up! 

In my opinion, there is a line that has been crossed over and over in video games. This line that I am talking about has to do with the subject of violence. First of all, I am not completely against violence. What kind of guy would I be if I did not enjoy blowing stuff up in a flying combat or tank game. I happen to be a super smash bros. fan. My favorite Donkey Kong game is jungle beat--since it had the most action and fighting. So you might be thinking. Oh...you are just the type that would not like a first person shooter game. WRONG! My newly acquire favorites include the Metroid Prime Trilogy which is an entire series of first person shooter Metroid games. So what exactly am I talking about? I am talking about the games where your goal is basically to shoot and kill other humans. Don't get me wrong now, these could be very useful for police and military personell, but I do not think it wise to go around practicing shooting other people all the time. I am sure many will disagree with me on this point, and many will probably also agree. But there is a fine line of action and violence and even blood that many people cross. You can have any one of these things in a game and not cross that line. I happen to also enjoy Transformers. If you know much about it, you pretty much know that you are a powerful robot that fights other robots. Some of these include, shooting, melee, and even destruction of environments. I liked the Metroid for giving you some raw action without one element...The fighting and killing of other people. You are the Hunter, as the space pirates like to call you, and you shoot space creatures. That's it. I even liked G-force, where you had an electric whip and multiple mini guns that could help you fight the hordes of robotic appliances that attack you. Violence can be fine. I have not a problem with it. It is when we step into shooting and killing other humans that I do not like. 

Let's face it. Kids like to copy whatever they see. If they play a game where you shoot up space creatures or drive a tank. Do you think they are really able to copy that to a major problematic extent? However, when you take a gun in a game to kill humans, it becomes much more realistic. I also feel it becomes dangerous. You can tell kids not to play those games, but are they really going to listen if they do not want to? Whereas, it would be harder for them to steal a helicopter and bomb the city, because, they'll probably never even get it off the ground! Maybe you think that this is a bit extreme, but all the school shootings make me think. Were there as many before the age of gory games? Granted, we cannot blame the games for peoples actions and choices. But I do believe that people's actions can be and are influenced by the things that we fill our minds with. Paul in the BIBLE says that "Whatever is true, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, and of good report. Think on these things." I understand that a lot of users may disagree and dislike my quote. But this is my opinion, and my standard. I respect those of other people. But what do you all think?

Congrats. You got me to read something in the debate forum. I make it a habit to never enter this forum, partly because my religious convictions include avoiding debates, and partly because I always see people arguing senseless points with absolutely no ground for their view, yet they assume they're correct because, well, it's what they think is right. And they always find backing from someone else. This is always the case, without fail. So in short, I get too upset and worked up when I read people slandering and arguing and blah blah. So if you reply to this, take no offense if I don't answer. I will read it, but I don't wish to get involved in a thread with replies in this forum. lol



Okay, so this topic is incredibly important to me, as I'm an indie game developer (along with a few other Vizzed members on the team), and I just recently set up our guidelines on the content we'll allow in our games. Among these guidelines was the inevitable topic of violence. Here's the gist of what I settled on:
"Violence, Blood, and Gore are permissible to almost any extent within reason" Without posting it all here, the general idea was that, as long as the violence wasn't exaggerated or made to be a focal point of the game, it was acceptable. For example, in a war game when a guy steps on a mine and it explodes, it's fine if his limbs are severed and fly a few yards away (my apologies for the bluntness), that makes sense and is acceptable with me. However, games like Mortal Kombat that make violence and gore the entire point of playing the game, where people can somehow rip the human skull with their bare hands, or punch through your chest and rip your still beating heart out...THAT is senseless violence, and will never be tolerated in a game I have any power in making. That MK X trailer at E3 actually made my stomach turn. It was that bad, and that senseless. No offense to the fans, I just don't agree with stuff like that. We all have our own preferences, I suppose, and I'm not a judge.


That said, I don't like gore for the "Ooh cool" factor, but rather in proportion to the act taking place. Even one of my favorite series falls into this snare. The series is Tenchu, and when you slice a guard's neck (Ninjas have to make stealthy kills) blood will spray out like a garden hose. It isn't to the point of being a horrid thing, but it's not necessary at all, and though this doesn't hurt the game, it would be best left out in my opinion.


Still, our personal preferences in these matters aren't going to change the game industry, and as such we'll either have to make minor exceptions, or quit playing most games. Hopefully as my team grows, our style of game development will spread as well. Indie devs have done it before, just look at Minecraft; some well known and long running AAA series are adopting aspects of MC's gameplay, including the newest Harvest Moon game! Either way, I do believe there is a line, and I feel that many modern series' have crossed that line by far. Still, at least not all is lost, and many developers are remaining true to their standards.

I have to agree with Eirinn with this. Violence shouldn't be the purpose of a game. Story should drive a game, not killing or violence. I like games like Battlefield, but Mortal Kombat is out of line in my opinion... I also enjoy Stealth games, the point of which is to not kill all of the guards.

I'm glad that you both told me about that on mortal kombat. I thought about trying it, because I do enjoy some fighting. But thanks to the both of you I know not to mess with it!

I recently played halloween for atari 2600, and was shocked it included decapitation, as well as harming children on screen. It really crossed a line there with me. I noticed not even Grand Theft Auto goes there, as there is no kids walking those deadly streets.

I am... was a huge fan of Call of Duty and Battlefield or war games in general.  There's a reason for that especially if you're a guy.  We were / are built for war.  It's the way you have been wired.  Since you were little, you were dreaming of being the hero.  Swooping in to save the day.  Whether it was by wielding a sword, gun, grenade, fist - whatever gets the job done to vanquish evil.  Violence was and always will be part of that make-up and in my opinion and because of my religious convictions, it is good IF used for good.  Senseless gore and running pedestrians over in for example GTA is just stupid.  Don't get me wrong, I used to love playing GTA back in my gaming days, but it's wrong on so many levels.  Levels other than violence.  That is also why I stopped playing COD and BF.  Not because of the violence, but because of other personal reasons.  So, yes.  There's a definite line.  A line that is being crossed more often than not by big name game developers.  I just get the feeling that games are getting more gory and violent for some reason, which is totally unnecessary and it personally puts me off.
I am also not saying that playing COD will make you a real life gun toting serial tuber / killer.  I am not that naive.  There's other underlying roots that causes those kind of problems.

I'd have to disagree with all of you about the "line." There are things that aren't necessary for a game and there are things that are to keep it fun. Blood and gore is pretty much an essential part of some modern video games. A game like Killing Floor 2 (still in development) has blood as their focal point. The game developers want zombies to have over 20 different spots each where different animations will play. One spot might blow their head off and another might make some blood spill out. Then once the zombie is dead you can keep shooting it while its on the ground for even more blood. Lets be honest there was a time when all of us would think that was cool.
Is all of this really necessary? Yes it is. The player will feel like they have control over what happens in the game and they'll have another reason to buy it. The developers and players want something to top the other games that are out there.
Is someone going to run around with a sword trying to kill people because of a game like this? No. Most people have common sense and know that there are punishments because of this. As long as their parents dont say "Hey kid that should be us one day" they most likely wont do anything stupid. Even a game where you rob a bank wouldn't encourage people to try it. TV shows and movies are more likely to give them the idea, but its up to the individual to do it.

Violence has happened for thousands of years from the first humans fighting over food, Europe and the native americans fighting over America,  or people killing each other out of anger. Video games aren't a cause of this and studies have shown it. If a developer added killing children or some other things people would naturally be turned off and wont play it.

I personally don't like games that make violence a focal point, however
I have seen no real evidence to support that they have correlation with real violence.
School shootings became more frequent not with the release in games, but with the increase in media coverage.
The kids involved in the columbine shootings are names everyone now knows, and for a misguided child seeking attention, well...
That's a perfect way to get it.
When the media made those kids famous...it seemed to happen with a lot more frequency than we had previously seen. 

That said however, I do find games that focus on highly graphic violence to be very distasteful.
And while they may not cause someone to go shoot a person in my strong opinion, I do agree that they work to desensitize people to it.
The graphic nature of the violence in games like the most recent Mortal Kombat, I agree, is distasteful.
Do I want my child playing that game? No. Do I care to play it? No.
However, you would get the same answer if you asked if I thought it should be banned.

No, you can't control what your child is going to do.
However, what you can do, is sit down with them, and explain things in a way that they'll understand.
Educate them, and trust them to make their own decisions.

I think it's easy to blame things such as games, or movies, or music (Rock music was predominately blamed for the columbine shooting)
Just like with behavioral problems, everyone wants to blame a mental condition and throw pills at it.
I don't believe in that. I believe in talking with your children. In teaching them right and wrong.
And if they mess up, making them take full responsibility for their mistakes.
If it's a game or an artist fault, a child will likely take that to mean they can do whatever they want.
As far as violence in video games being the problem with society?
That type of argument has been made for decades about all kinds of stuff.
I imagine there was possibly some game with rocks that cavemen thought were ruining there children, lol.

While media may not be doing much to help the situation, media is not the cause in my viewpoint.
As always, I firmly hold that the problem with people...is people.

SoL@R :

Me too.


I always wanted to be the hero, either with sword in hand proving myself worthy of a woman at a young age, or toting a Gun In Star Wars battlefront II as the brave troopers under the Republic.


I think that Heroism should make us desire to play these games, not just the desire to make suffer.


I think Tahua from Bionicle says it best when He was fighting the Priaka Cheiftan in the last series.

The Cheiftan said, "Looks like you learned something after our kind after all, I taught you well. You're just like us."


BUt Tahua responded.

"No! Never like you! We fight to save lives, you fight to take!"

I am definitely thankful to see a wide variety of opinions  being expressed here. While, I do not believe someone to commit an act of violence just because they played a game on it, I still feel that what you spend your time on will influence you, for better or for worse. Earthwarrior makes a good point about violence having always been around. I know videogames did not start that. And I do agree with Sol@r about being wired for heroism. Like I mentioned, I love the transformers games where you play as the autobots and shoot the bad guys, or even try to ram into the decepticons sometimes in vehicle mode. I enjoy metroid trying to eliminate the most dangerous creatures of the universe. True, gore often plays a part of the action scene. I do not mean to say that all gore is wrong; I really find it distasteful. I definitely feel that there is some point to the war games, like the COD and Battlefield. They put you as a hero fighting for your country; it just is not really my thing. I am so against senseless violence, like the Mortal Kombat series. I do now have a sega genesis remake console that has 80 built in games, some of these include violence games. I must say that I do enjoy CrackDown. It is a game where you set bombs and try to get out of the area before they go off, and you shoot at artificial life forms. Although it may seem like you're shooting at people, I liked the fact that they made it clear that you were fighting "artificial life" as they called it. I also enjoyed Shadow Dancer and Eswat. These games just showed an explosion whenever you hit an enemy, which makes it feel more like fighting robots to me, rather than killing people. I also saw the streets of rage...it wasn't too bad, but it really is not something I like. Virtua Fighter is pretty decent, as it is a martial art match more than anything. Overall, violence can be done, but I still feel that it has to be reasonable. However, I still feel that going into the gore is really just over the top and unreasonable, but that is solely my opinion.

FaithFighter : I really do agree with the senseless violence. I don't want to make a double standard, but I do agree that it seems to be more fun to take out aliens and robots etc. I recently started playing Republic Commandos, which you only fight Droids and Geonosians. They are aliens that are non-existent.

FaithFighter :

Anything's fine within moderation. playing violent video games is perfectly fine; unless a person develops an abnormal obsession with violence I see no problem with it, and there aren't any studies that corroborate the idea that playing violent video games makes a person violent- in fact there's more evidence that people who bottle up or repress their anger are more likely to act out on it in bad ways, than people who can find a healthy outlet for it. To some people a violent game can be like hitting a punching bag to release anger (instead of hitting a real person)

And while I'm not going to go off on a religious tangent here, if you're going to use a Bible verse as your justification - keep in mind there's quite a bit of violence and death in the Bible - have you ever read the entire OT?

Ah I always love seeing this subject. Good amount of varying opinions I see. Well ( * cracks knuckles* ) let me throw in my two cents worth since I have argued this exact subject many times with church going friends and family. I would argue that research has failed to show a causal link between video games and real-world violence. I would also argue that correlations between video games and violent behavior can be explained by youth predisposed to violence and being attracted to violent entertainment. Additionally, if video games do cause youth to be violent, then one would expect juvenile violent crime to increase as more youth play violent video games.

( Going to use a stat here ) Instead, the arrest rate for juvenile violent crimes has fallen 49.3% between 1995 and 2008, while video game sales quadrupled. These games only exist in the first place because society already glorifies violence and facilitates the creation, distribution, and purchase of such games. We should be asking why we have an environment that promotes violence in the first place, and why we give succor to a media and entertainment industry that sensationalizes rather than reports. Did you know that a new study out of the University of Buffalo posts violent video games boost moral sensitivity—and might lead to real-world, ‘pro-social’ behavior. Recent research lends new complexity to the dispute, and suggests violence and immorality in video games can lead to boosted moral awareness when players put down their controllers. Violent video games do NOT cause behaviour problems. You don't need to conduct a scientific study to figure that out, because the answer is as plain as the sun in the sky. If violent video games DID cause behaviour problems, then we'd have a world filled with uncontrollable criminals running amok, destroying property and causing harm to people. Since we have not descended into anarchy as a result of the existence of violent video games, the answer is clearly NO.

Do I agree they can be too violent ... yes but at the same time games are rated depending on their content. If an underage kid gets a hold of a M for Mature game, its on whoever gave it to them, and in turn any influence that comes from it is theirs to deal with. Even so, children and teens can discern fiction from reality; it's a basic concept. If any violent behavior came about from an individual, a virtual reality would not be the cause of it. Outside influences and mental state have far bigger influences on what a person chooses to do. People aren't so stupid to go out killing because they saw it in a game. Either they were raised to think that is acceptable ( being the parents fault ) or their life was already hellish enough to act on impulse. Blaming it on games is just an excuse. Whether a game is too violent or not is a matter of personal opinion and moral beliefs of the person who is getting the game and playing it.

Hell for that matter if you want to put gaming under the knife then why not also put literature, radio and television under the knife as well. All of them have varying degrees of violence based on what content you decide to check out. If you say games are too violent and cross the line then you are also saying every form of entertainment ( books, media, and word of mouth ) also cross that line.

I am going to end this with two bible versus and one more point of view : You want to quote the bible, which in its' pages there is all sorts of violence including the death of Christ which is vividly gone through ( Spikes in the hands, brutal whippings, people spitting in his face while he hangs bleeding, etc...). You can't get much more violent than that and were supposed to throw our kids into this and have them believe that the violence in there is not as bad as some games and news reports that sensationalize war, terrorist, and random killings. Here's my bible quotes and I'll end my heated discussion here for someone else to step in. 

Matthew 7:1-2 “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
Exodus 21:24 - 21:25 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Brain-Splattered :

And those aren't even the most violent parts of the Bible by a long shot - lol

As long as it says 17+ on the game. W hats the big deal. This world is way to P.C. We fold any time some thing makes some one mad. It's a easy thing don't by games that are violent . T his game shows blood, turn it off they make cute sweet games play those. Just like tv if it the show your watching makes you mad change the channel. It's that simple. If a game makes you upset stop playing it. Turn the thing off . Trade it in and get some cute game. Why make a big deal; out of it. Why waste your time on a game you hate find one that you like and play it.

FaithFighter : You say that violence against humans in games is a line that should never be crossed and you point to COD and battlefield as prime examples of what is bad and has been taken too far. I agree with you on that part because some games have gore for no reason or just to show off their new blood splatter mechanics. Like gears of war did. However, I think that absolutes are almost never able to hold water so I will talk about a game that used violence and gore to point out misconceptions that people have about what war really is and what it means to actually use a gun.

Spec Ops: The Line was a game about war and violence and the horrible atrocities committed in war. It used violence to drive home the point that war is gruesome not because it would boost the rating. In loading screens later in the game it stops saying "loading" and replaces it with quotes such as "This is all your fault" "if you were a better person you wouldn't be here" "How many Americans have you killed today?" "Do you feel like a hero now?" "Do you even remember why you came here?" Without the gruesome horror in this game it would not have the same effect on people, it would fall flat and be a hollow story without the imagery to provoke you into thinking.

Again I do agree that most games use violence frivolously and wrong because they don't strive to be anything more than a game, they don't have anything to say other than "good job you saved the princess/world again" instead of having some amount of value in their story. If you want to see a game use it well then look up a play through of chapter 8 in Spec Ops. (note if you get queasy easily you might not want to watch it)

Ok I just had a argument with one of my family over here about this and wanted to jump on here and let y'all know about something she said that grabbed my attention. I was talking to her about the thread and my view on it and a run down of some of the others I saw as well. 
She gave me a shocked look and said, " You can't compare video games to the bible or any other reference material or things that are taught." I laughed at that and from there it was on between us.
I said, " Yes I can compare them because every form of entertainment , whether it's books, television or anything else, has varying degrees of violence. I mean you have groups that rant and rave about violence in anything you can think of but it's the same for games as well." 
She for some reason was stuck on video games like it mattered because to her it was not as important as learning stuff and that you'd never find stuff as violent in anything as you do in video games. So needless to say she is very much against violence in games and kids playing those games. 
Well anyways I got on the PC and looked up all kinds of reference stuff about horrible things that happened in history and pointed out that this stuff is taught in school. Asked her how it was any different than violent movies, books, news, and regular violence you see all the time in television show. She was stuck on it being JUST a game and not useful for anything but entertainment.
There again I took up the challenge and showed her a lot of the educational games that are offered to play. I also showed her that you can do anything online on the newer systems that you can do on a computer. Even articles about people using game systems to home school their kids. At that point she gave up and walked off saying that I didn't understand. 
Seriously what is to understand ? Anyways thought this would be a good thing to throw in here. Take it easy all. Pz out. 

rebelyell : I don't think the point of his (her?) original post was that they personally disliked violent games. At least, that's not what I got out of it. It felt more like faithfighter's point was that violent video games are harming our culture and our youths.

Not that I really agree with that point, I just wanted to point that out.

Unfortunately, I don't really think it would matter, or would have mattered, if we toned down violence in video games (and as has been pointed out, in movies, in books, in...the evening news?) Our culture is in a period of decline; it's history, repeating itself. Civilizations rise, peak and fall. 

As for kids copying what they see/play/hear, I agree with that...but only to a point. My childhood was spent swinging big sticks at my friends and pretending to decapitate them-we played knights and dragons a lot.(and I can promise you I never saw that in any movie or game!) ..and shooting my friends with pretend guns (Indians and cowboys, natch)

But I was also raised to be a morally upright person (without the...er, 'benefit'...of religion, thank you) and I know that killing is morally wrong. So my childhood of pretend violence and mayhem really didn't have a big impact on me as an adult. I believe that if you're raised right and aren't some kind of psychopath or sociopath from birth that things like that won't really affect you.

I actually think some of the violence and gore in video games and movies is a good outlet. Take out your frustrations on the other guy on the screen and soothe the urge to punch that annoying jerk at the office in the face. Imagine those guys you're sniping are the customers who drove you insane during the day and manage to avoid the nearly overwhelming desire to slap each and every one of their faces at work. See? Stress relief, and no one gets hurt.

Drawing lines for anything, any kind of boundaries, laws, or limits is a nice little kiss of death for any art. If the creator of a game has a vision of an ultra violent blood bath then good let the person do it. Video games catch more flack than any other art or entertainment. When a movie is beyond violent, people don't think another thing about it, when music is filthy and scummy (just the way I like it) someone might not like it but they don't give it as much bs as they would give a video game. The problem is gaming is seen as a kids activity although it has never been just for kids. It started as a family activity and the Atari porn games should have really killed the idea that a home console is for a 4 year old. Wow I got off subject there for a second, but yeah, let rambo kill stuff with flaming arrows, let GG Allin play naked, and let stuff in video games blow up! If you don't like violence, go play Mario Kart 67billion, if you do, good, go play something violent.

You know, I just don't really like the fact that the so called "media" always blame video games on all the recent violence. How I view it, they have nothing else to blame on, and two, you can't tell on what the killer was playing prior to killing someone, especially if they kill themselves.

What my advise to all the media people, just don't take your blame on video games, as well with music and movies, just remember, the kids that grows up might be living in a very bad neighborhood with a bunch of gangs and murderers, and they all pick up their killings from them and also keep in mind, people has been violent since the beginning of time, way before games, movies, and music was even invented, and no one blames anything back then, and we really can't exactly tell on how many people exactly killed, but it would be like the same amount of people that we have today, and that's all we know.

So, on why the media blames violence on video games is beyond me, maybe the media just likes blaming on things that the human races completely likes, if it was something else, the media will try everything in their power to take that thing down, that is media for you.