*Riiight!   Let's smack this "donkey" and see if we can get it moving *

Here in my country it's spring now - the beginning of new things!  The irony is we got snow on the mountains! Check it out!




  Majestic, isn't it ? Why do I get exited about snow on the mountains?  Well, if you knew where I live, you would know that we hardly get / see any snow.  So anyway, I thought I just share this quickly as an intro to the video which I have shared below.
I know, it's been a topic that has been discussed extensively.  You might say it's like flogging a dead horse.  Well, to be honest, I disagree.  The horse is very much alive.  It is in fact a very important horse.  It's a mustang - Arabian cross covered in gold, sprinkled with diamond dust .  You get the picture.  This topic is the very foundation on which a lot of our way of thinking / life (and education) is based upon.  The good 'ol topic of evolution.  To be more specific, Darwinian evolution. I have a lot to say about this (of course ), but before I do, check out the clip first and let's get your thoughts on it.  Make sure you have about 30 min + spare time, because that's how long this is.  
I know people can get very emotional about this and everyone has their own "opinions"  on the subject, but please, think for yourself before commenting.  Don't just mouth off something that you got from hearsay.  As far as possible, be reasonable.  OK.  Let's get cracking.

EVOLUTION vs. GOD

Wow, that was a great video! I'd encourage anyone who hasn't watched it to watch it, Christian or no! Thanks for sharing SoL@R!!!!!

I don't really think this is well done. Most of the interviews are talking to random college students or people who stated they were not experts. On the interviews with people who actually are experts in the area, you could clearly tell he would cut video while they were talking or the moment be asked a question to make it look like they weren't answering. This was an extremely doctored video. I would like to see the unedited version where he actually doesn't cut the video right when someone was clearly about to speak to answer his questions. The only ones who sat there dumbfounded and unable to answer were the students. Of course they did that. They are students. Not experts in the field. Many of them looked like very early students at that. But I got frustrated where he would cut off people while they were answering just to make it look like they didn't have an explanation. Video doctoring at its finest, if anything. I am a religious scientist. I believe in not smearing either side or manipulating video like what was done here. I don't like it when the science side does it, and I don't like it when the religious side does it. This video interviewed mostly the wrong people and only showed the short clips they wanted to use from the interviews with the right people. 

His part about survival of the fittest was FAR off. He said because Hitler murdered, he was showing survival of the fittest. Survival of the fittest has to do with ability to survive in an environment. It is not the same as a lion killing the antelope. In that situation, it is a matter of food for the lion. It is what the lion must do to survive. That is what survival of the fittest addresses. It does not address genocidal murder of specific groups with no purpose other than wiping them out. That kind of killing is not a factor in the survival of the fittest concept. Anytime Hitler is used as an argument, it is trying to strike an emotional nerve to overpower the logic of anything. Hitler is commonly used against the religious side too.

His dog example was sickening. He was giving people a hypothetical situation where he puts a loved one and a non loved one to death and you can only save one. That is actually a difficult question to answer hypothetically. On the spot, your concern is your loved one, not the one you have no attachment to. The fact that there is a species factor is not what is first process. I have no doubt that almost everyone who said they would save their dog in the hypothetical would save the person if that actually happened. But on top of that, the whole "you can only save one" thing is not realistic in the least. It is not a logical situation. In most situations, you could try to save both. The case would be that you would probably swim to the closest one first. It is not logical to swim past one to get to the other. People don't work like that. It was a dirty move to try to portray these people as bad with such an illogical hypothetical. Again, it was sick manipulation with the sole purpose of making them look like bad people. 

The argument about 'how do you know nothing happens when you die' is hypocritical as well. This is no different than if he is asked "how do you know there is an afterlife? No no no no. How do you KNOW? But you don't have the experience to prove that? How do you KNOW? No no. I don't want to know what the Bible tells you. How do you KNOW?" As a religious person, I know that my religious views have FAR less evidence than my scientific beliefs. That is why it is called FAITH. Faith is believing in something even with no tangible evidence to support it. Religion is faith, and that should just be accepted.

All this video really accomplished is showing that college students don't have the knowledge to answer the more difficult questions and you can edit out the answers or explanations of anyone who can give you one. I don't care what the college students have to say. I want to see 38 minutes of just the interviews with the very FEW experts they had on this video.

I think an important note to mention here is that you can believe in god and evolution, well honestly you can believe what you want, but I don't feel it's blasphemy (and shouldn't even be considered as such) because someone believes facts.
The real topic should more or less be Creationism vs. Evolution. Which just in my honest opinion Creationism is nothing but pure fiction, as they have absolutely no facts. It would be a completely different story if you asked a biologist about evolution, just based on the ridiculous amount of evidence that he could pull up, proving that evolution is and has been going on on this planet looooong before we even existed .

rcarter2 :

It's standard practice to edit a video, as you would surely know.  It would be impossible to fit that kind of topic into 38 minutes.  Doctored? I don't think so.  The interviewer, Ray Comfort, already stated in a press release to American Atheists inc. - that demanded an unedited version of the video to be released - that he will be willing to do that if they are willing to go live on TV and convince him with a good reason to do so.
Here's the CNN ireport posting the request from American Atheists Inc. and the press release to AAi.

As a BIG side note.  The Bible says in Hebrews 11:1 that "faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.".  For the true Christian, having faith is hoping in spite of hopeless circumstances.  It is to never doubt the promises of God.  It is being absolutely convinced that God would do what He had promised to do.  The God of the Bible does not expect people to act in faith toward Him unless that faith is an intelligent faith, built upon the solid foundation of what He has done in history as it has been recorded in the scriptures.  You are urged to think and investigate God's claims.  In the Bible you will find that intelligence is equated with knowing the biblical God.  It is not an irrational or blind faith.  On the other hand, foolishness is attributed to those who reject him.  Psalm 14:1 - "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God".   Evolution, in fact, requires inordinate amount of blind faith.  Dr. R.L. Wysong, a former evolutionist, said the following:
"Evolution requires plenty of faith: a faith in L-proteins that defy chance formation; a faith in the formation of the DNA codes which if generated spontaneously would spell only pandemonium; a faith in a primitive environment that in reality would fiendishly devour any chemical precursors to life; a faith in experiments that prove nothing but the need for intelligence in the beginning; a faith in a primitive ocean that would not thicken but would only hopelessly dilute chemicals; a faith in natural laws including the laws of thermodynamics and biogenesis that actually deny the possibility for the spontaneous generation of life; a faith in future scientific revelations that when realized always seem to present more dilemmas to the evolutionist; a faith in probabilities that treasonously tell two stories - one denying evolution, the other confirming the creator; faith in transformations that remain fixed; faith in mutations and natural selection; faith in fossils that embarrassingly show fixity through time, regular absence of transitional forms . . . a faith in time which proves to only promote degradation in the absence of mind; and faith in reductionism that ends up reducing the materialists arguments to zero and forcing the need to invoke a supernatural Creator" - (R.L. Wysong, The Creation-Evolution Controversy, Midland, Michigan: Inquiry Press, 1981, p. 455).

What breaks my heart is that evolution is "sold" as science and taught as fact to our kids.  For something to be called "science" or to be proven scientifically, it  needs to be repeatable, observable and possible to falsify.  The theory of evolution cannot be repeated, observed or falsified.  It is beyond the realm of the experimental scientific method.

All "side notes" aside, the point of the whole video clip is not to show that "college students don't have the knowledge to answer the more difficult questions", it is not to make science professors look stupid, it is not a "money making scheme" as some skeptics claim.  It is to present the full gospel in truth.  One will not understand this - and this is the root of the problem -  if you are a person with a proud heart, not realising that you're a sinner and desperately needs God's grace and forgiveness.  His offer of everlasting life is a free gift which you cannot obtain by any amount of work or "good deeds".  It is by faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone.  He is the source of life.  I have been convicted by this and believe with my whole heart the scriptures when it warns that all liars, fornicators, thieves, blasphemers, adulterers will end up in the everlasting fires of Hell.  It is with this conviction and concern for those heading towards this terrible fate, that this video has been made.  People have to be warned! Sometimes people have to be grabbed by the chest and shaken to open their eyes, to awake them to the truth that they are standing on nothing at all.  In this case, evolution being the rotten foundation.  People have been deceived and are blindly believing and following one man's pie in the sky theory.  People these days are running from God and although deep down they know He exists, they don't want to acknowledge Him.  The apostle Paul wrote in the Bible: "There is no one who is righteous, not even one. There is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God" - Romans 3:10,11.  Instead of seeking God, people are seeking to live without God.  People also do not wish to see the truth and they do not want to know that God exists.  The Bible says that wicked humanity is suppressing the truth of God: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth." - Romans 1:18.  This is an active willingness on the part of the people to keep the truth of God from coming to them.  

Kevyn13 :
I think an important note to mention here is that you can believe in god and evolution
You only have to make up your own god in your mind to make this work.  It's called idolatry and it's a violation of the first of the Ten Commandments.

just based on the ridiculous amount of evidence that he could pull up
The interviewer asked for one piece of evidence for Darwinian evolution.  No one could present it.  Why don't you go and ask a biologist about evolution and ask him / her to present you the evidence for it and then come and share it here please.  I'm not trying to be funny or trolling - I'm serious.  Find out for yourself.  Don't just mindlessly believe that everything came from nothing.  It would mean that you happened by chance.  Nothing happens by chance.   You have an awesome purpose in this life.

SoL@R : Isn't that technically what every interpretation of god is? I don't think anyone really worships the same god, it's all a different interpretation in every person's mind.

Plus the Ten Commandments only apply to people who believe in Christianity and Judaism. At the end of the day every religion has the same message be loving, accepting, responsible and most importantly don't be a jerk, because when you die if your not a peace with yourself and your life, than what do you really have?



As for evidence all you have to do is google, "evidence of common descent" and I guarantee endless amounts of evidence.

So cool

Of course none of them came up with examples. They were students. Undergrads at that. The only person with a doctorate in there was the one they cut the feed the most. The only time they actually kept the camera rolling to watch them sit there unable to answer were the undergrads. There were plenty of times where thy cut off the only real expert just as he was starting his sentence. That is why I want to see the uncut footage. I find no credibility in a video in which 14/15 people they interviewed (not actual number, I didn't go back and count) were undergraduate students. All this proved is that undergraduates haven't done the on site work to know any specific answers. Well duh. 
But it doesn't help that it is impossible to just directly answer specified questions. To understand how this works and why it is accepted as science is because you have to go through massive amount of genetics, chemistry, ecology, and geographic discussion. This guy just kept asking for simplified (pretty much single sentence) answers. It doesn't work like that. What he should have done is leave the undergraduates alone, and discuss in depth the 4 fields I just specified with QUALIFIED people and put that together. Emphasis on modern genetics application and chemistry. But then he would have a video that doesn't support his propaganda. 

Thing is, both sides do it. The atheist group has many times made documentary films showing that a huge part of the religious community has not even read the Bible enough to answer questions using the Bible as a reference off the top of their heads. Big difference I see there is that a Christian has only one book to reference, and so many of them can't even effectively do that. Yet the science community is ridiculed when their undergraduates can't do that when they have to try to reference from numerous different fields, each with hundreds times the information and specifics as the Bible.

Keep in mind, I am a man of science. But I am a religious man. I feel that religious people are entitled to not believe in something that goes against their religious beliefs. That is their right as a human being. But this video was very poor quality as far as credibility goes. All these documentaries always try to simplify evolution and demand it be explained and proven in layman, but that simple is not possible. It can't be put in layman and explained by answering broad generalized questions, which is all this guy asked. 

I'm not fighting for either side in this thread. I'm just saying this is not a video done with credibility.

Kevyn13 : Sorry for the delayed response. If you create a god in your mind to suit yourself then you have an interpretation of your own god. That is a false god, an idol, a god that does not exist. The God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the only true living God. He is a God of love and peace BUT He is also a righteous and just God that will not leave sin unpunished. The 10 commandments applies to everyone. Do not be foolish to think that you will not be judged according to God's law one day. He has inscribed the law on everyone's hearts. You knew since you were little it is wrong to lie, it is wrong to steal. God placed that moral law on your heart. We have all broken God's law and because He is a good and righteous judge, you will stand before His judgement seat one day and will have to answer for that. For those who has broken God's law and rejected His grace and free gift of everlasting life awaits eternal punishment in Hell. The Bible makes it very clear - "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers (verbal abuse), nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)


BUT God has made a way for you to be free of that judgement. God wants no man to perish. He knows and loves you Kevyn13 deeply and because of that, He became flesh, the man, Jesus Christ who walked on this earth about 2000 years ago. He took all the punishment that was meant for you and me upon Himself and He suffered and died in our place on the cross. He rose on the third day from death and by His resurrection death no longer has a hold on those who repent of their sins and trust and believe in the one and only Savior Jesus Christ. By doing that God will grant you everlasting life. You will not face the judgement that is to come. That's a promise.



As far as evidence for Darwinian evolution goes - that is change of kinds - there is none. It's bogus science.

rcarter2:

"Keep in mind, I am a man of science. But I am a religious man. I feel that religious people are entitled to not believe in something that goes against their religious beliefs. That is their right as a human being."

I am also a scientist, a qualified microbiologist in fact. Unfortunately I'm no longer working in that field so I'm a bit out of it ?Anyway, since I came to know the true living God, I appreciate science even more. I don't find it ridiculous, a fantasy or weird. God created science, that's the beauty of it. It seems like there's this huge misconception by society that Christianity and Science does not go hand in hand. The point of the matter (video clip) is that Darwinian Evolution is not science. It is sold as science. People these days will rather believe that we sprang into existence and "evolved" from a fish into a human being than believing in a Creator that will hold them accountable one day for their deeds. People know the truth but they choose to suppress it.

"I'm not fighting for either side in this thread"

From reading your past threads and posts, you seem like an intelligent man. I truly hope you will make a choice and a stand on important matters like this one day, credibility of video clips aside.

rcarter2 :  I'm sure you'll notice since you're so actively involved in these discussions (and awesomely so!) but SoL@R failed a summon in your direction.    And I'm looking forward to the responses. Your discussions are lovely.

SoL@R : But evolution is a science, and that is the problem. People (especially Christians) think that evolution is just something that someone came up with and then tried to prove it. That is not science, and that is not how the theory of evolution was founded. It went through the same process as other scientific aspects. Years and years of collecting data and testing modern genetics and applying it to what has been found formed the theory, not the other way around. Evolution is happening all the time. We have observed individual species genetically change, causing physical change, adapting to their given conditions. We have observed a number of species change so much that they are no longer the same species as before. They can't even mate with the species that they once were. We know how genetics works. All evolution is is the study of genetics. That's it. It is the concept that everything acquires traits from their parents, and some traits are not suited to live in the world of the wild. That aspect of genetics is proven and undeniable. The problem with a lot of creationist arguments is that they seem to be under the impression that we believe that a fish can suddenly just give birth to a salamander or something. Evolution, in no way, states that an animal spontaneously gives birth to some other animal. That is a huge misconception. It is simply applying the already observed concept of animals genetically changing and applying it to remains we have. Genetic variation has always been going on.?

To say Evolution is not a science is to say what we know about modern genetics is not a science. They are one and the same. Anyone who says otherwise is just yet another person who does not really understand what the theory of Evolution is. They can't see anything other than it saying "humans evolved from apes", which is just utter hokum and inaccurate. The problem is that our schools aren't teaching Evolution right (for the most part). They are teaching purely the archaeological aspect of it, and very little about the specific genetics science behind it. That is a backward way of teaching it, and very much a cause of it being considered not a science. We aren't teaching the science part of it. What I think we should do is focus on the genetics of evolution. What we see going on today and THEN apply it throughout time.?

But I do agree that it is a misconception that the Bible and Science are opposing forces. I don't see what is so blasphemous to say God put man on this Earth, but this is the more detailed explanation on HOW he did it. Honestly, if anyone looks at the accepted Evolution timeline, it fits the story of Genesis pretty well except for the whole 7 day time frame (but I think that is a matter of translation and interpretation). 

But I will touch on when you said "everyone knows the truth and chooses to suppress it". Evolutionist say the same about Christianity. It is hypocritical for either side to say that. But here is the thing. Being a religious person, I will probably get scrutinized for saying this. But the Bible is not absolute fact. That is the matter of it. The purpose of believing in a religion is 100% based on FAITH. Nobody KNOWS that the Bible is true. They believe it is true. That was part of the whole point. Faith is believing in something even with no real proof of it. The only artifact we have that tells most of the stories in Christian beliefs is the Bible. Nothing else. God gave us free will to believe. I believe it is intentional that there is no concrete proof of God. If God just did things that gave us all undeniable proof of His existence, there would really be no point to life. He made Himself not absolute fact as far as we can tell so we can choose to believe. If everyone knew it as fact, then you really don't have much of a choice in your life, severely limiting free will. Free will is a gift to us that can't work if there were concrete proof of God's existence. So to say that we KNOW the truth is inaccurate. You may disagree when I say you don't KNOW. But nobody KNOWS God exists. That is why it is called FAITH in God. Believe in Him without concrete proof. 

An interesting topic evolution vs GOD
first off let me say evolution and GOD are not mutually exclusive since the bible in fact gives examples of

evolution Adam and EVE (Perfect) and modern man. and natural selection Noah and the flood.

as for the video I couldn't watch all of it annoyed me how he was asking for proof (for change of kind) that can not exist maybe that was his point but it doesn't prove anything since homo sapien sapien is still an animal, mammal... primate maybe

I can give some examples of how man could have come out of the water .... lung fish,whales,dolphins and amphibians for a start and I am not even slightly qualified in such things.

in my opinion evolution and even physics make no difference to being Christian since in the end the question can still be asked What caused the facts to be FACTS, what created the "BIG BANG" and What caused the original mutation etc

also I seen Hitler mentioned earlier as I recall he and others used natural selection to justify eugenics and genetic cleansing that is why he is forever associated with evolution

rcarter2: But evolution is a science, and that is the problem. People (especially Christians) think that evolution is just something that someone came up with and then tried to prove it... Isn't that what science is make a hypothesis the do experiments designed to test it just saying