Hey guys I'm a Catholic and my religion is extremely against abortion. However, in one of my classes I have to debate FOR a womans right to choose (we drew out of a hat) and I'd love to hear everyones point of view and reasons for their choice as well as some pro's and con's. This would be extremely helpful and will give me an edge in my debate. Let's keep it friendly though guys. I will carefully read all of your answers and whoever has the most compelling point whether it is for or against I will award 500 Viz as a thank you for your interest. This will be awarded on or around Aug 31 (hopefully i can log in that day)!

Here's the reasoning behind pro-choice: For various reasons, the personhood of a fetus is generally understood to commence between 22 and 24 weeks. This is the point at which the neocortex develops, and it is also the earliest known point of viability--the point at which a fetus can be taken from the womb and, given the proper medical care, still have a meaningful chance of long-term survival. The government has a legitimate interest in protecting the potential rights of the fetus, but the fetus itself does not have rights prior to the viability threshold.

Sure, so let's take God out of the picture and say that the fetus doesn't have a soul. This is the only way that it's justifiable murder. Since it's legal, we don't have all those poor girls slipping off to see those butchers in dark alleys. At least this way they get counseling for it.

We ought to legalize murder too. Then they can kill in a nice clean safe environment. This way they're protected form getting splashed with blood that might contain diseases, and are offered counseling so they don't have any post murder trauma from the choice they've made.

Well if you want an edge, key in on the Bible in Leviticus 18:21, "You shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech." It was a common practice in those days for the nations other than Israel to offer infant sacrifices to the god Molech. Worshipers would heat up this little iron god to a glowing red and place their babies in the outstreched arms of the god, sacrificing their babies. They believed this had spiritual significance.

They would do this on special occasions, for good luck. If they were building a new house and wanted a blessing on the house, they would sacrifice one of their babies and place the remains in a jar in one of the walls of the house. Archaeologists have found many of these tragic remains. This seems barbaric to our modern sensibilities. But is it really all that different from our practice in the modern world of sacrificing babies in barbaric abortions just so that our lives can be more convenient?

I think that if the baby hasn't started to form yet, it's really not that bad. If the baby is formed, then it's living, it is getting food from the mom, sucking it's thumb, etc. I find it as murder. So, I guess you could say I'm 50 50

Well, if you're looking for arguments for abortion you could also site things like statistics about teen pregnancy and the education rates and crime rates from single parent families. I don't have any but I do know that a lot of abortions come from situations where the girl would likely end up as a single parent and have to work and raise a child on her own which is far from ideal. The education, adjustment into society of kids like that is nearly always worse than a child that comes from a 2 parent home. And the crime rate from kids in a single parent home is higher because their income level is usually lower.

There are a lot of other arguments that you could use... I'm getting distracted with other things or I would have posted a lot more

However, in my opinion the fact that a fetus is alive and becomes a human being without too much outside interference pretty much trumps any good reason to kill it prematurely.... but as long as you can side step that issue you wouldn't have too much trouble debating this.

OH, and if anyone does use a God argument (like God says it's wrong to murder) a good response to that is always that not everyone believes in God so why are we imposing our beliefs on them?

I fully believe its murder. If it wasn't alive as a fetus, it wouldn't have developed into a baby. Plus a thing to think about with single mothers is, not to sound mean, but they shouldn't have opened their legs if they didn't want to deal with it and got to know the guy a lot better and a lot longer before they did it. An only exception would be if the father was dead or called to duty.

Hoochman : I agree with you... I'm not saying I agree with what I said, but simply that issues with teen pregnancy and single parenting can be used as reasons for abortion to be legal.

It's murder. I don't care what anyone else has to say, it's murder. Since the time a certain... thing meets with another thing (not going into detail; for the kiddies. =P), the baby is living inside the mother's womb. Therefore killing it, is murder. And that's practically saying that it's O.K. to murder. WTF? You would've never killed some middle-aged guy off the streets. It's just stupid, I don't see why anyone would think that it's O.K., because it's NOT.

Now I know the reason is for some medical purpose, but it doesn't make a difference! It's wrong to kill anyone. Ever notice that most of the 10 Commandments are State and Federal Law? That's because we know in our hearts that those things are wrong.

...And that's all I have to say about that.

I think if your dumb enough to get pregnant before you married you shouldn't be able to choose.

However, if you are raped, or some other hideous deed is done, then I'm all for it.

My point is, Abortion should be used in only extream cases, and not as a form of birth control.

While I believe abortion on demand for reasons of personal convenience, social adjustment or economic advantage to be morally wrong, I do take into consideration the conception as result of malicious crimes and am still opposed to it. As repugnant as it would be to carry a baby under these circumstances, murder is not the answer. The baby is completely innocent and should not be punished for the evil acts of its father.

A second argument would be in the case of when the life of the mother is at risk. Honestly, apart from my faith in God, this would seem to be a just reason. But according to my faith I believe that God is a God of miracles and can preserve the life of a mother or child despite all the medical odds being against it.

I think that is wrong for the most part. There are probably certain situations that could allow someone to justify getting one. But thats something that the "parents" will have to deal with. I wouldn't go as far to call it murder unless it was a late term abortion.

life begins from conception. if you are ok with abortion, then it's just as well if you walk up to a 5 year old and and vaccumed it's brain out.

on another point. someone asked me the other day, "what if the woman is raped? she surely doesn't want to look at the face of her attacker for the rest of her life!"

to this person i replied that one of the best singers in the christian world was born of rape. ernie dawson is an amazing man, and a wonderful singer. lead singer to the group heirline. and if she doesn't want to keep the child, don't kill it, it's not the child's fault you were attacked. adoption agencies may not have the best system in the world, but it's better than having the blood of an innocent life on ur hands.

What about the woman who is pregnant? How did she become pregnant? Was it her choice to have sex or was she raped? If she was raped, I don't see why you would not let her have the abortion. It was not her fault, it was against her will, and what world will the baby be born in? His father will be in jail, his mother will probably be very depressed, etc.

In most other cases, I think I would be against aborting it. Instead, I think there should be a limit on the amount of children that you are allowed to birth. This would solve so many problems. The human population would stabilize as people would only have 2 children each, which will replace the parents when they die. Eventually the human population will grow too large if everything remains unchanged. There will be less space available for living, more food will be needed, less jobs will be available, etc.

So what I am saying is that I'm against abortion in most case, but, there should be something done about birth control (reform it).

From most of the posts that I read here, I think everyone here is against abortion, but if we get down to it, the main discussion in this thread is whether ALL abortion is wrong, or whether extreme cases, like the mother's life at risk due to birth, should be allowed with abortion.

Here's my stance, we are understanding that abortion, as a Christian, is murder, because life begins from conception, and what is in the womb is a person. Now with that being said, what about the risk of losing the mother. If we believe that abortion is murder, we should not use abortion as a way to save the life of the mother, we should try our best to preserve both of their lives as best as we can.

hey brotha sumo,

i'll share what i Know from the Word of God and my own personal experience, you can keep the Viz though or give it to someone else if you prefer, this is just an issue that hits home with me because it means a lot to me.

i Agree with God and God says it's murdering of the innocent.

God Creates Life and who is mankind that they should tell God who should or shouldn't be allowed to exist?

a man and woman may contribute to the process by donating a sperm and egg, but it is God that puts the spirit (life) into that being at the point of conception.
another interesting detail that is often not discussed is how a bright flash of light mysteriously takes place when the fertilization occurs.

could this be the spirit being put into said body by God?
something to think about.

but anyways, God also tells us that it is our responsibility to not allow the innocent to be lead to death.

Proverbs 24

11 Deliver those who are being taken away to death,
And those who are staggering to slaughter, Oh hold them back.
12 If you say, "See, we did not know this,"
Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts?
And does He not know it who keeps your soul?
And will He not render to man according to his work?

you can't get any more innocent than a person who hasn't even had an opportunity to commit a sin yet.


as for God actually being the Creator of Life and not man . . .

Jeremiah 1

4 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

so not only does God Create each person that is ever born, but already sets a purpose/plan/destiny in place for their lives as well.

and Psalm 139

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother's womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

so those are some scripture sources that i think pretty clearly shows that God is the Creator not mankind, and it's not really mankinds place to decide whether a person should be allowed to be born or not be born.


as for my personal experience, i used to go out every weekend to an abortion clinic to minister to those going in to have their children killed.
we would offer help to those people about how this doesn't have to be the means by which they handle the situation and that God has something Better than having to resort to murder.
some of us out there were even willing to take their children as our own if they were willing to go through the whole birthing process.

i had one of those clinic workers as a regular customer at the store i worked at during that period of time.
she came up to me one day, knowing who i was from seeing me out there and told me how she had quit her job.
i was Joyful for her having made the Right choice about the whole issue and shared the Good News with the rest of the team.
unfortunately about a month later she ended up right back out there going to work again.

it broke my heart for that woman, feeling she had to rely on blood money to make a decent living.

the abortionist was also a practicing obgyn at a hospital which is/was against the law.

upon standing outside his regular place of employment sharing the Truth about what he does on his days off, we had several of his patients come to us sharing about how cruel and coldhearted he had been as an obgyn and how their was something odd about him that they just didn't feel right about having him as their ob.
we got no Good reports from his patients or defense on his behalf in concern over his actions.

i could go on and on for a long time about all kinds of things that happened at the "blood house", but i think one time in particular really stood out the most for me.
a man brought his partner in to have their child aborted.
the whole time he waited in the car outside like it was just a regular dr.'s visit and they had their 5 YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL sitting in the backseat waiting with him.
i felt so bad for that little girl having to come to that place for her mother to kill her little sister or brother and wondered what they would tell the child they were there for.
it's kind of hard to ignore the signs we had out front showing what exactly they do in that place.


let me give you a little bit of insight that came to me one day while i was thinking about the whole "what if they were raped" scenario.

hypothetically speaking--to say it is alright for a woman to kill her own child because she was raped, is no different than saying that after being raped it justifies her going home and killing her child and then going to the rapists home and killing his child, and then shrugging her shoulders and going "i've done no wrong, i am justified in my actions".

so that's my input to the topic.
take it as you will.
it may be Helpful it may not.

Peace be on you and may Christ guide your steps in all you do.

p.s. oh and in response to the mother's life being in question, i think that's really up to the mother to decide whether she wants to sacrifice her life for her child to live.
it should not be forced on her, but should be a choice of her own free will to lay down her life for her child.
Jesus told us that there is no greater Love than to lay down your life for another, so i think His statement pretty much makes it clear how God feels about it.

Thanx for all your interest guys you all make very valid points and I really appreciate your help. As for my lil reward I'm going to have to give it to M364 since he gave a lot of insight religiously as well as having some personal experience in the subject. he made a great effort to answer my questions and gave pretty good references. Thanx again guys.
M364, open up that Viz wallet.

I am pro-life, except for rape and incest cases.

Brotha Sumo : I just wanted to suggest that if you feel strongly against abortion then you may want to inform your teacher/professor that you are extremely uncomfortable taking a stance in a debate that you do not support. If anything, see if you can have an alternative assignment or a different debate topic or something. It's completely unaceptable to expect you to take a stance on a point of view you yourself don't agree with or support. I'll be praying for you. Do not be afraid to take a stand for what you truly believe.

edison131 : It doesnt make me uncomfortable really, and seeing as I'm trying to be an attorney I'm going to have to argue for things I don't really believe in so its good practice for me

I'm for abortion. If you ever seen the movie The Fly where the chick has a dream about having a mutant baby you can see why she would want an abortion

Sometimes you just have to do something that will end a humans life. If a family member turned into a vegtable and you could not afford to keep them on life support then the only option is to pull the plug. So same thing here just reversed. Plus its not like the baby is 100% aware of its surroundings. I don't remember anything from when I was a baby escially if I am in a womb. The brain is too under developed in those stages to make any difference yet.

If your against abortion then stop eating eggs your killing something that could have had a life. And since easter embraces eggs I don't see why abortion is against the rules. You cant celebrate easter if your a christian and enjoy eating the eggs

I am very pro choice. I had to think about this myself once. An for those of you who don't know, I'm very low income. Meaning if I were to have a baby, that baby would have a horrible beginning. What child wants to grow up to know that they weren't wanted an d was a burden on their family?