http://mashable.com/2015/12/06/finland-basic-income-800-euros/#p_bNfQkNCsq3

My jaw dropped when I saw this. I was seriously shocked. Finland apparently thinks sending 800 Euros a month to people (tax free I believe) is going to turn their economy around.

"Finland's 800-euro-a-month plan, distributed among every single person in the country including babies and teenagers, would cost 52 billion euros a year, and 47 billion euros if you count only adults. "

"Those are enormous numbers and a tough haul when the entire government's revenue for 2016 is expected to be only around 49.1 billion euros."


To me this just seems like insanity. Thoughts on this? I can't see any other result than this bankrupting the country.

Thats......thats pretty shocking this could actually bankrupt the country as you said geeo. I dunno how this will help them in a way to turn things around....lets just hope things don't go out hand. Because things like this can damage a country in a way. '-' 

I would really like to know where they are getting the money from, and if the answer is they're going to print it, then I'm going to have to wonder if they understand what makes money valuable in the first place. . .

Sword legion : I'm wondering the same thing.... it sounds like they are going to have to go into even more debt to pay for this. Which makes me wonder how long it can last.

Obviously this would be a way to stimulate the economy in the short term but whether it will actually result in a better economy or if it will simply push the government deeper into a hole it can't crawl out of remains to be seen.

Insanity is right.

To mirror what Sword Legion said, do they really understand what makes money actually valuable? If you could print money whenever you ran low, then economic downfalls would never happen. That's not how economy works.

I assume they are going to try to recuperate some of the money from taxes, but if they are giving away that much, I don't see how that is sustainable.

This is going to stimulate the economy as much as the US's stimulus checks did....
Everyone I know used that money to pay off credit debit, which doesn't stimulate the economy at all...

The strategy is obvious.  Finns are getting older, they aren't reproducing and nothing is driving young populations to the country.  They're doing this now to establish expectations for people living into retirement.  There is no more retirement, no more government assistance, no more welfare, nothing.  You get your 800-some  (whatever Finns use for money... reindeer antlers?) and you have to live on that.  End of story.

I'm thinking one strategy is companies and businesses can go to Finland, play their lowered corporate tax rates, and save a bundle because they aren't paying out millions to retirees, especially higher income ones.  Finland can capitalize on driving tech companies and high level business to their doors because the government is helping provide incentives for corporations to save money.

Or something like that?

Anyway, it's a good way to get Euros circulating so they can go after their something-like-10%-unemployment they're dealing with.

Good luck, Finns.

Well I can see where they're going with this, more money with people means more they buy. Heck, I they pull this off they could get anywhere from 10 to 20 billion a year in extra taxes, but that's a TON. That's just under a full month of minimum wage over here.

And they're giving it to everybody?? Every baby born from now on would literally have free college because by the time they're 18 that's well over 100K.

I thought about this after my initial reply. Honestly probably too much.
Anyway, to the point. This might be a lot smarter than we think. They are going to be eliminating a lot of bureaucratic positions that pay well in excess of 10000 a year. That alone is probably going to make up for a good portion. In addition, they are getting rid of all the benefits, which has to be a significant amount of their costs.

Vanelan : I'm not suggesting that that part is bad. That is the smart part of this plan. No more red tape in getting benefits for people who need it.

However, the Finish government expects to bring in 49.1 billion Euros in taxes for all of 2016 and this plan is going to cost between 47 and 52 billion Euros. Probably more because they actually have to deliver the money somehow.

I agree that it is a way to save money for the government but you've also cut out some of your tax base (sort of but sort of not but I don't want to waste time talking about that).

However, I think the BIG key to this one - no benefits for non-citizens. So anything they were paying to people without citizenship also goes out the window.

I can see some of the benefits for sure, but I still see "welfare" spending being basically the entire tax intake of the country. That is not sustainable when you have to factor in all the other stuff a government has to spend money on. The total output of money is (or will be) twice what they bring in.

geeogree : I think there is a much bigger plan in place. I can't imagine they would do anything that would bankrupt the country.
There is probably an income tax or sales tax increase on the way that they aren't discussing. Maybe even more cut backs they are withholding to keep people from panicking.

One word. Bankrupt. This may help in the short term,but when you are giving away money,all you are doing is putting a band-aid on the real issues. Where is this money coming from? How will it be distributed? What will be cut or eliminated to make this a reality? There is no way this could work and all this does is create a welfare like state where people wait till the first of the month to spend money. You cannot get something for nothing.

Oldschool777 : That's why I think there had to be more to this than they are revealing our than is being reported.
I still don't believe they would intentionally bankrupt a country and that they have a grander plan in the works. That's not necessarily saying it will work, but it just doesn't make sense to me to destroy their own country.

I agree,something more has to be happening than the report says. I mean,if they are that worried about not enough kids being born,maybe they should take a page from what Japan did after WW2. They paid people to have kids. I do not know the details,but that might help with countering the negative population growth. I do not mean give them free rein to make kids irresponsibly,just have some regulation and assist the parents with the care of the kids.

That's it. Men, to Finland! Take as many...Finland money you can and live in paradise that is the Finnish society! Once they go bankrupt, we will take over the land and create super heroes to fund our research! What is our research, you may ask?
To teach little cute animals to read and count.

All seriousness, on paper this looks like a bad plan. Good short term, not that good long term.
However, we should wait a bit to see how it unfolds, the Finnish might have a bigger, better plan up their sleeves they just haven't made public. Or maybe this is going towards a better goal they have in mind.

Let me tell you guys as a Finn.

This whole "news" was a hoax. It has not happened and never will. And we were as surprised as you guys were to hear about it. Idea of this has been toyed around sometimes buy some politicians but nobody seriously. In years.

So worry not about our economy. Take look at your own. Jenkkiäpärät.

Since I do not know anything about the present state of the Finnish welfare system, I can only talk about economic theory.

Many economists like Milton Friedman have long advocated a "negative income tax" (similar to a guaranteed income) where, at a certain level, you would stop receiving the said "income" when you start working. In theory it would be much simpler than multiple programs as is the case in the US right now; it might even save on costs since it would kill the many duplicate programs.

But in practice, some people in the thread have said it might cost more than the actual revenues government is collecting at the moment. Unless this guaranteed income program (if it DOES exist) comes with strong incentives to people to find work, it will bankrupt the country for sure.

janus :

Right.

The ever growing question here goes on if unemployed should be punished for having a job and thus motivated to get one or if by showing too much slack on the unemployed just encourages people to stay unemployed. Personally, I don't know. Jobs as our grandfathers used to have are pretty much gone. None of us are going to stay for the same job for our whole lives. And we have to live with that. And so should our employers and our unions. We, the workers, just wish we would be treated right. That's all. And if we don't then well..

Well, we do quite fine just being unemployed too. Which is really great but what we would truly wish is just to have our jobs. We love em. But then again, if sitting on our butts is what it takes, we do it. But my point is that if they make us do it, they better pay well for it! Since its humiliating enough and if we have no jobs, no money, nothing for our kids then we will rise up.