We are living in a country that is free for most choices.  Of course no where is completely free.  I can't randomly kill people, drive as fast as I want, create as much pollution as I want, and do thousands of other things that deemed unsafe to others.  I lose my freedoms because they would otherwise affect others' freedoms.  It's a nice little twist.

There's also a different between the freedom of speech and communicating threats against persons or property.  You can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater (nor should you want to).  

What do we have the right to know about?  I don't want to know my military's and government's secrets because they could be potentially dangerous to have the general public know and understand.  

I also am not sure about that third item.  Do you discuss bombs on the phone with your friends while in the shower?  That seems worth taking the time to do some serveillance if that's the case.

No, we don't have 100% pure freedom.  If we did, life wouldn't be productive or enjoyable.  You could say, "Oh, freedom and pure choice for all!" and get run over by a guy in an SUV three seconds later.

That's not very freeing, is it?

The united states was never free, it was build from stolen lands and never ending fighting amongst the people. If you even look back at the father of the constitution you can see that he broke his own rules, the very rules that we still follow to this day was broken from the creator himself. Another thing about the so called freedom is that every founding father said to watch out for political parties.

John Adams said:

There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.

George Washington agreed, saying in his farewell presidential speech:

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty
Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.


so if anyone is to blame for the never ending slave economy it has to be the voters themselves, everyone throughout history had 200 years to stop it but no the votes just let it happen.

mastergame : Just so I understand, we live in a slave economy?  Is that what you're suggesting the United States' current economic system is?

warmaker : very interesting, I think you're right there is no such thing as a free country. It would be impossible. and to answer your question no, I don't talk about bombs with my friends. I was just explaining that your phone can detect words and start recording what you say. They do this because if someone were to say lets go kill the president. They would know its coming and be prepared for it.

I don't understand why you are complaining. Would you want to live in a country where you could kill, rob, and rape innocent people and get away with it? Or have those things done to yourself and no one cared?
Also dont bring your phone in the shower with you if you dont want to be recorded. Just a tip.

mastergame : amazing! Your so good at debate you must be a lawyer? I don't think I can disagree with you at all.

earthwarrior : I'm not complaining at all. However I would like to know what the government is hiding. And... I don't use my phone in the shower? I'm just saying there are people watching you all the time. The cops can see you thou your phone.

chryoyo : On the topic of thing the government won't disclose: normally a person can file a case through the Right to Information Act (that may be what it's called?) in order to have information disclosed. Then, if that fails, they can sue if they have sufficient evidence that important information is being kept from the American public that would cause controversy. However, there is a point to which I agree with the government hiding information. I don't want information on the next operations of the military and the secret services posted where our enemies could see them.

This thread seems to say "we don't have freedom" without looking at whether or not freedom is inherently good or how much freedom people can handle or should have.

First lets look at what freedom means. The oxford definition of freedom is "the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint." In other words freedom is the power to do. Being able to do anything you are capable of doing with no repercussions at any given point in time sounds like a nice thing, but is it?

Every society has laws to protect people. You can even take something as trivial as Minecraft and see how total freedom works when taken to its logical end. Trolls and griefers cause massive destruction on a server wide scale if there is on one to reign in their "freedom." they lose absolutely nothing by logging into a new server and destroying hours or days worth of work they are operating in a system "without hindrance or restraint." Therefore it is obvious the unhindered freedom cannot be entrusted to everyone.

Because total freedom is unsustainable we need to discuss how much freedom is permissible in a system or how much restraint needs to be put on people. There needs to be some freedom or else there are no choices. If there are no choices we are nothing more than robots following a rail to a destination chosen by another. If I were to offer you a big mac or a whopper for lunch you would probably feel that your choice didn't matter and is therefore a meaningless or false choice, but if I were to offer two slices of pizza or a burrito you would have an actual choice to make even though the consequences aren't grand or far reaching.

I propose that you only need enough freedom to give you a sense of agency, that your choices matter. If you feel that your vote in an election doesn't matter it feels like a false choice that you might as well not make. If you feel that protesting on the Mall in Washington D.C. makes a difference you will join the thousands of people camped out for weeks. It doesn't matter which one of those choices actually has a bigger impact but the one you feel matters.

This gets hard because every person doesn't feel the same way about the same choices, and if you give people different choices then others will look at the imbalance of power between the amount of agency given to people and want the balance restored. It is impossible to have one system cover all people and be perceived as a fair and free system.

In conclusion people don't want and can't be trusted with freedom. What people actually want when they ask for freedom is a feeling of agency.

(I feel like I shouldn't have posted here because so little effort was put into this by the TC, but other people have replied so I may as well discuss the topic with them)

There is no such thing as freedom without limits. IF you want to know what true freedom is like, watch something like The Purge. You get the idea. We have guaranteed rights (that does get infringed upon from times to time, I know cops have screwed me over before) but our rights are given to us because we are supposed to be responsible. Like Warmaker said, you can't just blurt out fire in a movie theater. You have the right to but do you also have common sense? Most people do so this doesn't happen but it does once in a while. And then we point and call these people idiots. 

Certain rules are in place for safety. For example you are free to climb your own tree but not the empire state building. Or city hall. We are actually lucky to be living in the US. In some places there are so many restrictions, you couldn't protest the killing of a certain race or you will immediately get shot. I for one am glad to live in this country although I do want to go live in Canada one day...and I couldn't even have a gun there which brings up the argument, should there be freedom afterall?

The way I see it the freer we are, the more crime there can be. Check out the Native Americans. Look at the internet. Freedom online is everywhere. Freedom of hacking. Freedom of making a youtube video on how to be a clown. Terrorists can freely post propaganda online. There is even some stupid pig making a parody on the Michael Brown murder. What, you mad? I am. However this isn't always a bad thing. I want to live in Canada. There are no rights to bear arms. They have fewer murders from firearms. Hell they have fewer murders period. Here in America you can own a AK. Now this isn't about guns but we can really see the bigger picture here and I actually support our second amendment rights to a certain extent. The point is, in some places there are rights that are taken away and as if it is a huge ongoing social experiment, some of these countries have less conflicts internal and abroad. Is that so bad? 

What I believe in is moderation and common sense. If you are planning on inhaling a sharpie, you probably wouldn't stick the whole thing in your nose. If you are granted freedoms, do not take them for granted or abuse it or you will be locked up or killed. Well maybe not this extreme but it happens... a lot. 

Society as a whole impose rules on freedom because it is what we know. We know if you let your kids be "free" they will spill milk all over the place, piss on the dog and carpet, or drive your car. Maybe they just want to have fun. Maybe not. Whatever the case is people from all walks of life knows by common sense to limit freedom. When certain limits are imposed, people will be happier as well as vice versa. That, too, though, is open for subjective debate. What people do not know though, you can see much more freedom in that area such as the internet. That is why we are so free online here. The internet is relatively new. It hasn't been tried and used for a hundred years like the automobile. People try to impose rules but they do not work and people with power is trying to understand it and make rules that does work. Sometimes people get mad at this, sometimes they do not. I personally don't care if the government wants to spy on me. They will see a big picture of my finger. If I am not doing anything wrong, why should I care? Yes they are infringing on my sovereignty but I live in this country and so far, the government hasn't been too much of a jerk to me and I am happy with that. Wow this is all over the place lol. Hope it makes sense!

Wow heavy subject. But as I see it the powers to be took 9/11 and used the peoples fear to take are freedom . Well not take we out of fear begged for them to take it. Now any time we say are do any thing that they see as a threat it's what you a terrorist. . So are we free? No but it was gave away not taken. We asked for the searches the wire taps. In the long run  we got what we asked for.

I'm going to address each point, one at a time.

1.the first amendment clearly states that we have freedom of speech
but the government wont let us say things like hey I'm going to go kill this guy
how did the government get away with this simple we have the freedom to say it but there are punishment for saying them

The idea behind freedom of speech is the ability to express your opinions on the government and society without fear of being dragged out into the street and strapped to a guillotine. Saying "I'm going to go kill this guy." not only doesn't express any form of idea, but also suggests that you are about to commit a crime that needs to be stopped. Another thing to note is that it protects your right to say it; it doesn't protect you from the consequences of saying it.

2.We have the right to know
uhhhhh no they haven't told us anything about area 52 so they are hiding things from us and yet no one seems to do anything about it I don't know about you but that a little scary what is the government hiding

First of all, it's Area 51. With that said, how do you know anything is in Area 51? Maybe it's just a military base just like its advertised. I would also like to add that nowhere in the Constitution does it say we have the right to know. I think it's not only reasonable but actually necessary to keep some secrets. Imagine if we had made Operation Manhattan public knowledge during World War II. The consequences would have been disastrous, to say the least.

3.cellphones
did you know with technology comes less freedom
when you buy a phone you agree to be watched WHAT!!!
get this if you say something like the word bomb your phone will detect it and start recording you and you'll have no idea it can start recording video and audio of you when your in the shower hmm creepy yea

You chose to buy that phone. When you bought that phone, you knew the potential benefits and drawbacks. With that said, since when does a phone record you in the shower if you say bomb? I'd like to see several reliable sources confirm that before I believe it. Also, at no point do you agree to be watched by your phone. That is actually a crime and if someone is watching you through your phone (and unless your phone got hacked, they aren't) they can be charged with criminal offenses.

There are many facts we could question when asking whether or not we live in a free country. These are not those facts, or facts at all for that matter.

Despite a constant butchering of the Constitution, yes I still think this country is free. Unlike other countries I know, there is still a debate of ideas. And with the recent snooping revelations, I would say that the average citizen is now more aware that his freedoms won't defend themselves.

Well, sadly, people might say that this is in fact a free country, but in reality, nothing really isn't free because every country has to obey laws and some laws that yes, we do have to agree that it violate the Constitution and yes, we do everything in our power to make sure those laws don't go through. But recent laws that have been put into place, we all discuss is their is a such thing as a free country.

I know that our 1st amendment has states that we have a lot of freedoms but nowadays, those seem to change, because we really can't do much of anything anymore because the government are worried about our safety, but I think their doing too much to protect us to take and freedoms we have away from. So I don't think we really live in a free country, I don't think their is any free country on Earth, so more likely, this isn't a free world anymore to my opinion.

badly to all the other peoples don't have enough their free living.
but even just not rich. it's important to us that we have homes
and i guess

Not in the slightest. Honestly, I don't think any country can truly be free. Is it possible? Maybe, but I definitely doubt it.

I don't deserve it.

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