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Are Christians polytheistic?

 

12-06-13 06:43 AM
a-sassy-black-lady is Offline
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Although Christians claim monotheism, their god is the "triune"god, so there are three wholly separate entities that are then also, incongruously, said to be exactly the same. So a son can actually be his own father, and apparently a holy spirit as well.

Even if this odd situation is discounted and we accept that as a single god, there are other supernatural, powerful, immortal entities in the mythos that fit the description of a god, whether they are technically called gods or not. The most glaring example is Lucifer, the fallen angel who presides in hell. Not only is he powerful, he apparently still affects the mortal realm, and responsibility for all manner of ills is heaped upon him. Apparently the other god figure either lets him do his dirty work, or is powerless to keep him from it. Either way, this Satan is clearly a god.

Then there are hosts of angels and devils... also immortal creatures with varying degrees of power. Many have quite specific names and powers on both sides, from Michael and Gabrie on the cloud side to Abbaddon, Beelzebub, and many more. Some are the pagan gods of other religions, demonized and held to be evil, but they are also clearly represented as powerful, eternal beings and many are mentioned in the Bible itself.

And for some, as with the Catholics, there is the Virgin Mary, who people pray through and talk to constantly, who is venerated through countless shrines, and who is held to have many of the attributes of humans ascended to godhood in other religions. The saints might have some claim to lesser godhood, as well.

Anyway... seems to be clearly polytheistic, and depending on how many of the other god forms you accept as fitting the bill, possible one of the most massively polytheistic religions out there. What do you think?
Although Christians claim monotheism, their god is the "triune"god, so there are three wholly separate entities that are then also, incongruously, said to be exactly the same. So a son can actually be his own father, and apparently a holy spirit as well.

Even if this odd situation is discounted and we accept that as a single god, there are other supernatural, powerful, immortal entities in the mythos that fit the description of a god, whether they are technically called gods or not. The most glaring example is Lucifer, the fallen angel who presides in hell. Not only is he powerful, he apparently still affects the mortal realm, and responsibility for all manner of ills is heaped upon him. Apparently the other god figure either lets him do his dirty work, or is powerless to keep him from it. Either way, this Satan is clearly a god.

Then there are hosts of angels and devils... also immortal creatures with varying degrees of power. Many have quite specific names and powers on both sides, from Michael and Gabrie on the cloud side to Abbaddon, Beelzebub, and many more. Some are the pagan gods of other religions, demonized and held to be evil, but they are also clearly represented as powerful, eternal beings and many are mentioned in the Bible itself.

And for some, as with the Catholics, there is the Virgin Mary, who people pray through and talk to constantly, who is venerated through countless shrines, and who is held to have many of the attributes of humans ascended to godhood in other religions. The saints might have some claim to lesser godhood, as well.

Anyway... seems to be clearly polytheistic, and depending on how many of the other god forms you accept as fitting the bill, possible one of the most massively polytheistic religions out there. What do you think?
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a-sassy-black-lady :  well as far as I know we know there are other GOD's we just choose to only worship one... as for Satan  being a god  no he's just an angel nowhere near as powerful as GOD he is allowed to tempt us ... as for Jesus being GOD ... no but he is his son and he has authority over his kingdom ie earth and Catholics .... I don't understand them either ...  the holy spirit is just that a spirit not a GOD. and we do believe every human is an eternal being capable of achieving at least most of the powers of The one TRUE GOD as for the rest of the "gods" well they are false and while people consider them powerful they are not as shown numerous times in the bible sorry for not giving scriptures but I don't know them off the top of my head 


also 
Monotheism is defined by the Encyclopedia Britannica as belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God.[1]
a-sassy-black-lady :  well as far as I know we know there are other GOD's we just choose to only worship one... as for Satan  being a god  no he's just an angel nowhere near as powerful as GOD he is allowed to tempt us ... as for Jesus being GOD ... no but he is his son and he has authority over his kingdom ie earth and Catholics .... I don't understand them either ...  the holy spirit is just that a spirit not a GOD. and we do believe every human is an eternal being capable of achieving at least most of the powers of The one TRUE GOD as for the rest of the "gods" well they are false and while people consider them powerful they are not as shown numerous times in the bible sorry for not giving scriptures but I don't know them off the top of my head 


also 
Monotheism is defined by the Encyclopedia Britannica as belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God.[1]
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a-sassy-black-lady :  "Although Christians claim monotheism, their god is the "triune"god, so there are three wholly separate entities that are then also, incongruously, said to be exactly the same. So a son can actually be his own father, and apparently a holy spirit as well.


The Holy Trinity is the most difficult concept to grasp, even for Christians.  It is almost impossible for any human being to understand, let alone explain it.  So it is with this in mind that I will "try and correct" your understanding of the triune God.  One thing to keep in mind is that God, the Creator of the universe, the Christian God, is infinitely greater than we are.  We are His creation after all.  One cannot expect to fully understand Him.  Let me use a really simple (and it might seem stupid) example.  Say you have made the most beautiful, unique coffee mug out of clay and all kinds of decorations and you had the ability to give this coffee mug a will of its own.  It can thus "think" and "do" for itself and it was able to talk. Now Mr. (or Mrs.) Coffee Mug might start to wonder what he / she was created for.  He / she might even get frustrated and feel useless, because it doesn't know its purpose.  Mr. Coffee Mug will start doing crazy stuff on its own, jumping up and down and running around on the kitchen counter top, screaming and shouting and trying to get answers and attention and in the process start to get dangerously close to the edge of the table.  Despite numerous warnings from your side to Mr. Coffee Mug not to get too close to the edge of the table, because you KNOW what Mr. Coffee Mug is made of and you KNOW the dangers around him, he doesn't listen, falls off and breaks.  This could have easily been avoided if Mr. Coffee Mug just stood still for a moment and listened to your voice.  He could have discovered his purpose if he just simply asked you, since you know perfectly well what he was created for.  He would have discovered that if he would have let you, you could have filled him up with warm, aromatic, delicious mocca java or hot chocolate so that he could be nice and warm inside instead of hard, cold, empty clay.  He also would have discovered that he can make others happy and warm inside with the same substance that you have filled him with.  Unfortunately, because of His stubborn, self-willed nature, he got hurt.  Fortunately you KNOW exactly how the pieces fit together and if Mr. Coffee Mug will let you, instead of running away, you will be able to fix him.
So the point I'm trying to make is that we don't always understand things in life and why God does certain things, but if we are willing to be still and listen and learn we might catch a glimpse of those "things".


RetroSteve:  
I just want to summon you on this, since there are one or two things that you posted that I do not 100% agree with, especially where you said that "the holy spirit is just that a spirit not a GOD".

The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God.  The Bible also teaches that there is only one God.  We can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind.  This however does not mean that the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.  The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons.  This does not suggest in any way, three Gods.  Also keep in mind that when you study this subject, the word "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible.  This is a term used to attempt to describe the triune God - three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God.  Foundational to the doctrine of the Trinity is the biblical teaching of the existence of only one God.  No other divine being has real existence (I will get back to this).  Also, the essence of God cannot be divided.  God, by nature, is spirit - He has no physical form.  It is not possible to divide up spirit.  The God of the Bible is one single, eternal, infinite being who is indivisible.  scripture is clear, as I've already mentioned, that there are three distinct persons who exist - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.  The Father is NOT the Son, the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father.  Example - In Luke 22:39-43 Jesus (the Son) prayed to God the Father and not to Himself.  At His baptism in Matthew 3:13-17, the voice of God the Father spoke to Him in an approving way.  Again, it was not Jesus that spoke to Himself.  The three Persons should therefore not be confused with one another.  Another thing is that all three of these Persons is called God.  Each possess attributes that only God can possess and each performs works that only God can perform.  So if only one God exists and if there are three distinct persons who are called God, then the three persons must be the one God.  This is the doctrine of the Trinity.

One last thing about the Trinity - the idea of three centers of consciousness or three distinct personalities has no analogy for us as humans.  All attempts to equate the Trinity with some analogy will fail.  This includes trying to compare the Trinity to a human being who has intellect, feeling and will.  This is not the same as the Triune God who has three distinct centers of consciousness.  There is no analogy with which we can compare it.


Getting back to the statement that "no other divine being has real existence".  If you are a true Christian and have a relationship with God, you will nod your head in approval of this.  What do I mean by this statement?  First of all, the Bible teaches that there is NO other God, but the one true God of the Bible that I have just tried to explain above, which renders all other gods useless and fake.


*Isaiah 44:6 - “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God."


*Isaiah 44:8 - "Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’”


*Isaiah 45:18 - "For thus says the Lord, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord, and there is no other."


*1 Corinthians 8:4 - "Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one."



Most "other gods" are figments of man's imagination that their religion has created or that they have created in their own mind to suit themselves.  They will worship anything else than the one true God that will hold them accountable to their wicked deeds one day.  So in order to calm their conscience, their moral sense of right and wrong, they make up a "god" to worship that will only bring them kind blessings and good fortune.  These are non-existent, fake, dead "gods" aka idols.


Satan (and his demon minions) on the other hand, is not a god at all.  Many people make this mistake into thinking that Satan is God's direct opposite.  He is a created being with some powers, yes, but he was made by God.  He willfully chose to oppose God and was thus cast out of heaven together with his followers.  Beelzebub and Abbaddon are really just synonyms for the names Lucifer or Satan.

It is the same as with Michael the archangel and Gabriel. Beings created by God who chose to worship and serve Him.

In conclusion, to give a simple answer to the question of this thread - A definite no. Christians only believe in the one true God of the Bible.
a-sassy-black-lady :  "Although Christians claim monotheism, their god is the "triune"god, so there are three wholly separate entities that are then also, incongruously, said to be exactly the same. So a son can actually be his own father, and apparently a holy spirit as well.


The Holy Trinity is the most difficult concept to grasp, even for Christians.  It is almost impossible for any human being to understand, let alone explain it.  So it is with this in mind that I will "try and correct" your understanding of the triune God.  One thing to keep in mind is that God, the Creator of the universe, the Christian God, is infinitely greater than we are.  We are His creation after all.  One cannot expect to fully understand Him.  Let me use a really simple (and it might seem stupid) example.  Say you have made the most beautiful, unique coffee mug out of clay and all kinds of decorations and you had the ability to give this coffee mug a will of its own.  It can thus "think" and "do" for itself and it was able to talk. Now Mr. (or Mrs.) Coffee Mug might start to wonder what he / she was created for.  He / she might even get frustrated and feel useless, because it doesn't know its purpose.  Mr. Coffee Mug will start doing crazy stuff on its own, jumping up and down and running around on the kitchen counter top, screaming and shouting and trying to get answers and attention and in the process start to get dangerously close to the edge of the table.  Despite numerous warnings from your side to Mr. Coffee Mug not to get too close to the edge of the table, because you KNOW what Mr. Coffee Mug is made of and you KNOW the dangers around him, he doesn't listen, falls off and breaks.  This could have easily been avoided if Mr. Coffee Mug just stood still for a moment and listened to your voice.  He could have discovered his purpose if he just simply asked you, since you know perfectly well what he was created for.  He would have discovered that if he would have let you, you could have filled him up with warm, aromatic, delicious mocca java or hot chocolate so that he could be nice and warm inside instead of hard, cold, empty clay.  He also would have discovered that he can make others happy and warm inside with the same substance that you have filled him with.  Unfortunately, because of His stubborn, self-willed nature, he got hurt.  Fortunately you KNOW exactly how the pieces fit together and if Mr. Coffee Mug will let you, instead of running away, you will be able to fix him.
So the point I'm trying to make is that we don't always understand things in life and why God does certain things, but if we are willing to be still and listen and learn we might catch a glimpse of those "things".


RetroSteve:  
I just want to summon you on this, since there are one or two things that you posted that I do not 100% agree with, especially where you said that "the holy spirit is just that a spirit not a GOD".

The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God.  The Bible also teaches that there is only one God.  We can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind.  This however does not mean that the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.  The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons.  This does not suggest in any way, three Gods.  Also keep in mind that when you study this subject, the word "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible.  This is a term used to attempt to describe the triune God - three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God.  Foundational to the doctrine of the Trinity is the biblical teaching of the existence of only one God.  No other divine being has real existence (I will get back to this).  Also, the essence of God cannot be divided.  God, by nature, is spirit - He has no physical form.  It is not possible to divide up spirit.  The God of the Bible is one single, eternal, infinite being who is indivisible.  scripture is clear, as I've already mentioned, that there are three distinct persons who exist - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.  The Father is NOT the Son, the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father.  Example - In Luke 22:39-43 Jesus (the Son) prayed to God the Father and not to Himself.  At His baptism in Matthew 3:13-17, the voice of God the Father spoke to Him in an approving way.  Again, it was not Jesus that spoke to Himself.  The three Persons should therefore not be confused with one another.  Another thing is that all three of these Persons is called God.  Each possess attributes that only God can possess and each performs works that only God can perform.  So if only one God exists and if there are three distinct persons who are called God, then the three persons must be the one God.  This is the doctrine of the Trinity.

One last thing about the Trinity - the idea of three centers of consciousness or three distinct personalities has no analogy for us as humans.  All attempts to equate the Trinity with some analogy will fail.  This includes trying to compare the Trinity to a human being who has intellect, feeling and will.  This is not the same as the Triune God who has three distinct centers of consciousness.  There is no analogy with which we can compare it.


Getting back to the statement that "no other divine being has real existence".  If you are a true Christian and have a relationship with God, you will nod your head in approval of this.  What do I mean by this statement?  First of all, the Bible teaches that there is NO other God, but the one true God of the Bible that I have just tried to explain above, which renders all other gods useless and fake.


*Isaiah 44:6 - “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God."


*Isaiah 44:8 - "Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’”


*Isaiah 45:18 - "For thus says the Lord, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord, and there is no other."


*1 Corinthians 8:4 - "Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one."



Most "other gods" are figments of man's imagination that their religion has created or that they have created in their own mind to suit themselves.  They will worship anything else than the one true God that will hold them accountable to their wicked deeds one day.  So in order to calm their conscience, their moral sense of right and wrong, they make up a "god" to worship that will only bring them kind blessings and good fortune.  These are non-existent, fake, dead "gods" aka idols.


Satan (and his demon minions) on the other hand, is not a god at all.  Many people make this mistake into thinking that Satan is God's direct opposite.  He is a created being with some powers, yes, but he was made by God.  He willfully chose to oppose God and was thus cast out of heaven together with his followers.  Beelzebub and Abbaddon are really just synonyms for the names Lucifer or Satan.

It is the same as with Michael the archangel and Gabriel. Beings created by God who chose to worship and serve Him.

In conclusion, to give a simple answer to the question of this thread - A definite no. Christians only believe in the one true God of the Bible.
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(edited by SoL@R on 12-09-13 02:28 AM)    

12-09-13 07:22 AM
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play4fun :  We're even then  Believe me, I tried to get the summon right many times, but it failed every time so I just left it, so, thank you.
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a-sassy-black-lady :

I think you misunderstand the Christian teaching of the trinity.

The big formal creed written in 325 uses the word "consubstantial" (in Latin, of course) when talking about the relation of the Son to the Father. What this means is that the Father and the Son are the same "substance", a common Greek philosophy term for "individual".

So, an easy way to put it is "three persons, one being". This specifies that there are three distinct things within the one individual.

God as trinity is important for all sorts of reasons, but those really aren't on subject.

As for those Catholics venerating saints and stuff, they don't think of them as other Gods. While central and south America do actually have an issue with people having more faith in Mary than Jesus, their institution has long proclaimed that God is God and Mary is not.
a-sassy-black-lady :

I think you misunderstand the Christian teaching of the trinity.

The big formal creed written in 325 uses the word "consubstantial" (in Latin, of course) when talking about the relation of the Son to the Father. What this means is that the Father and the Son are the same "substance", a common Greek philosophy term for "individual".

So, an easy way to put it is "three persons, one being". This specifies that there are three distinct things within the one individual.

God as trinity is important for all sorts of reasons, but those really aren't on subject.

As for those Catholics venerating saints and stuff, they don't think of them as other Gods. While central and south America do actually have an issue with people having more faith in Mary than Jesus, their institution has long proclaimed that God is God and Mary is not.
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While I won't say one way or the other about those that believe in a trinity doctrine, it does NOT mean that I agree with the idea that they are polytheistic.

That said, the question here is far too broad. It assumes that all Christians believe in a triune God, or Trinity. I actually do not. In fact, there are many Christian religions that reject the idea of a Trinity, and feel it is a simple misunderstanding of the scriptures. Not going to get off track with that here, so please, no one reply to this asking for an explanation of this view (we can do that in PM if you want), or an argument.

So basically, just thought I would let you know that this is actually a stereotype (understandably though, so no worries) and isn't actually entirely fair. As for what those that believe the trinity doctrine believe, I don't feel it would be my place to speak for them, when there are plenty of them on here (I assume) that can speak for themselves. I do however, feel that this comes across as being an attack on them, so you may wish to clear that up. Just a thought.

Anyway, have a good day.
While I won't say one way or the other about those that believe in a trinity doctrine, it does NOT mean that I agree with the idea that they are polytheistic.

That said, the question here is far too broad. It assumes that all Christians believe in a triune God, or Trinity. I actually do not. In fact, there are many Christian religions that reject the idea of a Trinity, and feel it is a simple misunderstanding of the scriptures. Not going to get off track with that here, so please, no one reply to this asking for an explanation of this view (we can do that in PM if you want), or an argument.

So basically, just thought I would let you know that this is actually a stereotype (understandably though, so no worries) and isn't actually entirely fair. As for what those that believe the trinity doctrine believe, I don't feel it would be my place to speak for them, when there are plenty of them on here (I assume) that can speak for themselves. I do however, feel that this comes across as being an attack on them, so you may wish to clear that up. Just a thought.

Anyway, have a good day.
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SoL@R:  Yeah I'm a Later Day saint we don't believe in the trinity apparently ... although I still don't quite understand what the trinity is other them 3 entities in one GOD .... which is pretty much what I believe 3 entity's in one .... I think we call it godhead to avoid confusion but I would say one GOD.

I am happy to debate trinity / non trinity if you like but I would have to do some digging and I'm guessing we will both be just as convinced by our beliefs and I have tried before with Play4fun: and still don't really understand it.
SoL@R:  Yeah I'm a Later Day saint we don't believe in the trinity apparently ... although I still don't quite understand what the trinity is other them 3 entities in one GOD .... which is pretty much what I believe 3 entity's in one .... I think we call it godhead to avoid confusion but I would say one GOD.

I am happy to debate trinity / non trinity if you like but I would have to do some digging and I'm guessing we will both be just as convinced by our beliefs and I have tried before with Play4fun: and still don't really understand it.
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(edited by RetroSteve on 12-12-13 02:46 AM)    

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