A lot of people on this forum board should really be ashamed with themselves.  This statement extends to people outside of the forum board as well.  I deal with hundreds of people every day, I chat and converse with hundreds of other people, and I have two families that come with various backgrounds.  Every time the topic of religion (or for that manner, ANY topic) comes up for discussion, I am never astonished at how the discussion is handled.

People have various beliefs.  It's a fact of life.  It's also a fact of life that it's NORMAL to defend those beliefs.  Anyone who can't state logical reasons for their belief, must not have a very strong faith.

For example, let's say  that one person thought feta cheese was (beyond the shadow of a doubt), the best tasting and most healthy kind of cheese.  But let's say that one opposing view was that cheddar cheese was the best tasting and most healthy, while a third view was that no cheese is good tasting or healthy.  If these three believers sat down to try and discuss their differences of opinion, what kind of conversation would take place?

What if Mrs. Feta failed to provide arguments and just shrugged her shoulders, blushing, and saying "I don't know why I feel that way."
What if Mrs. Cheddar shook his head and said "You're all ignorant, because cheddar is CLEARLY the best, and I find your lack of taste to be disgraceful."
And then what if Mr. Non-Committal stated that both were idiots because healthy cheese simply did not exist?

The conversation would be completely, and utterly pointless.  Furthermore, I argue that their very faiths would be pointless.  If you have a conviction about something, there is a REASON you have that conviction.  Otherwise your beliefs have no foundation, and you might as well believe that cheese is taken directly from the moon's surface.

Newsflash:  Just because someone has opposing views as you does not mean they are arrogant when they defend their own.  I think what most atheists fail to realize here, is that they are defending their own beliefs just as strongly as the Christians/believers.  However, because they think they are the correct and everyone else is wrong.... they tend to view everyone else as arrogant and ignorant.  I hardly ever see anyone of ANY faith here insult the atheists or agnostics.  But I don't see the same courtesy returned.

This statement applies to ALL religious groups on the forum board AND outside of it in real life.

Another newsflash:  Just because I think my religion is the correct one does not imply that I am, in any way, throwing insults your way.  When I became a saved Christian, my twin decided she hated me.  Why did she choose to hate me?  Because I chose to no longer read the same types of books as she did.  I never told her to stop reading her books and in fact never even mentioned my change in taste to her, and how it was related to my religion.  And yet, she took it as a punch to the gut, as though by having a different taste in reading, I was insulting her.

Many of us (Christians, and non-Christians alike) need to stop taking opposing views as a punch to the gut.  Stop throwing out names and insults when you don't know how to defend your beliefs, and stop assuming people are arrogant because they choose to defend what they believe in.  We ALL do.  Even atheist defend their belief that there is no God.  And in most cases, they are much more aggressive in their arguments than anyone else. 

In short, telling someone they are arrogant for defending their beliefs is childish. It's a way of expressing your own disdain towards another group of people because they don't believe the way you do.  (And I'm talking to EVERYONE of ANY belief.  This applies to many Christian believers well.)

As for me, I'm quite disappointed in the fact that people resort to insult throwing when they don't like what someone else has to say.  I don't understand why the conversations can't stay sensible.  People are too emotional and too easily offended, or just find enjoyment out of needlessly offending others.  Anyone else have the same or a different take on it?  (And no, I won't call you ignorant or arrogant because your opinion differs from mine.)

Hello again Singelli, I understand that some people are set in their ways and won't change or even attempt to listen to another's discussion. I try to look at all angles of a conversation and though I am understanding I still believe what I want in the back of my mind. I try to be as open as possible. In short I think everyone is a little different and it makes the world interesting, some people can hold an intelligent conversation and some people just can't. I really don't post that much but I seen this and had to reply. Here is a saying I heard somewhere... The reed that bends the most cannot break. If that makes any sense.

Sad about your sister.  However, I have to say that there are a lot of people out there who enjoy 'baiting' people with beliefs and convictions.  I know a good few people who will adopt opinions, not necessarily their own, to provoke an argument.  They will do it to test out your ideas (strangely, they might hold the same opinions as you) to see what you throw back, and perhaps use themselves at a later date.  Some people use it as a pressure release.  My boss loves nothing more than arguing over some small point out of the newspaper, if he's had a bad meeting.  It's the way some people are.  It's personality.  Alls you can do is control your reaction to it.

FredElliot :  Huh. Interesting.  I can't imagine 'adopting' a belief just so I can argue with someone I actually agree with.  That seems rather... childish and petty.  There seem to be a lot of people that get their kicks out of riling other people, and it's just something I've never understood.  I mean, most of the people that enjoy riling others don't like to be riled themselves.  Just like most people here who insult others for defending their beliefs, don't like a bad word said to them on their own defenses.  I guess it really just comes to a matter of pride.....  There are some awfully proud people out there, and they fail to see it within themselves, instead reflecting that quality onto other people.

BtotheH :
Yes, that quote makes sense and it's actually one I love and agree with.  There are just too many who are rigid and refuse to bend, even a little bit.

An understandable rant, Singelli, for both Christians and non-Christians. From my experience of writing on this forum, I have noticed different topics that have gone heated for the wrong reasons and rather than a discussion of truth, it became an insult fest, throwing names and false attributes on an opponent. From a Christian perspective, we are reminded that within our defense and witness of the Christian faith, we are to also act Christ-like. Some Christians remember the first part of what the Apostle Peter wrote in 1 Peter 3:15:

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have..."

However, they forget the next part:

"But do this with gentleness and respect," (1 Peter 3:15)

As a person who studies apologetics, I am continuously being reminded by this. Not only that, we should understand both sides in giving a reasonable and fair response. This goes the same with sharing the gospel or witnessing to others. Not only do we share the truth to others, we also are to understand others and to be interested in their lives and their struggles.

Paul wrote something similar about this:
Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

play4fun : Thank you so much, and as usual, I couldn't agree more with your post.  Those are wonderful verses, and I don't know why I didn't think of using the first one myself.  I've just seen this issue more and more on the forums, and it's gotten to the point of being ridiculous.  People don't seem to understand sensible discussion anymore.  Their defenses flare up just because they disagree with someone or have strong feelings about how 'wrong' a group of people are. However, I think what they fail to realize, is that you can't make an impact if you start out with the assumption that someone is arrogant or ignorant.  I was just telling another forum board user this the other day.

If you start out with your post being "OH MY GOSH YOU ARE SO WRONG AND YOU ARE AN IDIOT BECAUSE BLA BLA BLA", how you can expect anyone to honestly listen to what you are trying to say?  No matter -how- sensible your following words might be, you have shut the other person off to them.  The only people that are going to listen are those that agree with you anyways, and they're only going to applaud you because you backed up their own childish feelings.  I understand wanting a blanket of support, but if someone -truly-, -truly- has faith in their beliefs, they'd also want people to listen to them with open hearts.  This means, as you said, discussing in a mature manner and with gentleness and respect.  You can't attract someone to an idea by screaming how incredibly wrong they are and insulting them. (And once more, this applies to anyone of any faith or lack of it.)  Therefore, if you really want someone to understand your viewpoint (which is the whole reason you are defending it in the first place), you need to quit with the insulting manner that you address other people.  My argument is that if you can't step back and approach your discussion in another way, then you are wasting your time and everyone else's, and you are doing nothing at all to prove your point or make an argument for your faith.  You are simply being spiteful.

im assuming someone called you arrogant, its not very surprising since i have seen you categoricaly say im right, your wrong, im not listening any more. Not very mature.

2 points.
Debate logic forum: for debating, so long as its devoide of insults,like 'you moron' its what the forum is for.
Christian con's, stated in stickys and by davideo when quizzed, anyone can debate god in there.
Outwith those forums bringing it up would potentialy be an attack depending on context.
I have seen christians here far worse than any atheists, stating gays are evil, muslims are scum etc etc, i think you are looking through rose tints.
Iv not seen anyone attack christians here, iv seen beliefs striped down, that however, was the point of the threads. Thats not an attack on the individual. You can perceive it as one but that dosent make it so. I dont take offence if people attack atheist views, thats how debates work. Theres no point geting upset in that. It just highlights insecuritys.

I wouldnt care any way. Someone calls you arrogant. Its life. Refute it or ignore it, its only a word. In the grand scheme of things when that happens the discussion is over any way.
On top of that, its the internet, the most unimpresive place to argue.

No, nobody has called me arrogant.  It's not generally polite to make assumptions.  I was speaking up for those who were called names, whether they were Christian or not, so there's no need to act like my tirade was against atheists.  I mentioned more than a dozen times that the rant was against believers and non- alike.

And yes, I realize it was a debate forum.  That was precisely my point.  Many of the debate forums are -not- devoid of insults.


And since you feel it necessary to bring up points and twist them for those unaware of the situation, I said I was not going to debate with you any longer because you can't stick to a line of logical thought and you jump all over the place instead of addressing what the other person -actually- said.  It had nothing to do with who was right or wrong and I even told you that in the other thread.  You can think as you wish, but I'm putting it out there as a point to everyone else.  Our debate was getting nowhere since you couldn't stick to the line of thought, and I didn't want to waste time when I had five billion papers to grade.

And neither here, did I ever say I was insulted.  I am not, and have not been.  I said I was disappointed.  Huge difference.  I'm not one to be insulted easily or at all.

Empathy, maybe?

Singelli : That's the word. Thank you for that.

I thought so.  And I couldn't agree with you more.

You think as you do because you are inclined to. One day you will realise, everyone is a hypcorite, not always but often.
Until an individual accepts it they will be blissfully unaware of the fact. Accepting the fact is what raises people above it, because they then consciously think about whether what they say is actualy fair or right.
And I never stated you were insulted, nor was I twisting anything, you should relax, geting worked up dosent solve anything. If you feel a user is acting incorrect pm them in a levelheaded and respectfull manor, if they respond badly to that, case closed, class A troll. If you cant be bothered doing it, well it was never really important then.
Oldschool41 :
Philosophy is interesting. I never much saw the point of it as a course but its beneficial for people to explore what makes things as they are. Such understandings generaly make for more level headed ideas and disscusions.

And empathy, as a society, is the greatest trait.
Understand your own biase and flaws, and look from different perspectives, you have the ideal society.
That would remove prejudices like racism and sexism, and stop people from jumping to farcical assumptions like disagreement or debate being an attack on an individual or grouping.

But, I dont see that happening.
Still, we can all dream.