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Atheism -- a religion?
Do you regard Atheism as a kind of religion?
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Atheism -- a religion?

 

07-13-12 08:27 PM
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thenumberone : What do you mean we can't create our own rules for words? What do you think oxford dictionary updating is?

The people who compile dictionaries usually aren't the ones that create the words or the rules to them. Words have to be in circulation before they are added, which means some one who isn't employed by the dictionarians (lol I just made a word up) would of had to make the new word or meaning up. Oxford may set a brief but specific definition, but it's not like they just pull random meanings out of their ass... it has to be very similar to what the word meant before it was added or else what is the point of adding it? There are no rules on how to make these "rules" at the time the word was originally used.

" if it was considered wrong theyd have changed it" As we have discussed, words DO change and get additions. Just because oxford see's no problem with it doesn't mean they won't change it. It's not so much that they would consider the current definition wrong as much as they would just make additions that would be adequate for a more modern meaning.

Oxford is the most used dictionary, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them or their definitions, but to say that any other dictionary is wrong or worthless is plane ignorant. I am sure the requirements for adding new words to any dictionary are similar to those of oxford.  I mean what makes you think Oxford's words law? There are parallels between your view of superiority of this oxford book and religious people's view of their books. Perhaps if the most famous dictionary originated in my country (you live in UK if I am remembering correctly) I would be biased towards it as well.

Who is saying that belief = religion? That is just absurd.
What I am saying is that atheism ( more specifically the beliefs that usually accompany atheism) is just as much a belief system on how the universe works as any religion, which is basically the definition I used.

There should be a word that encompasses every belief system regarding the universe/nature. Currently 'religion' is the best word for this, in my opinion. Well its the best until oxford pulls a new one out of their ass.

If that tax free thing works out for you I'm totally crashing at your place.
thenumberone : What do you mean we can't create our own rules for words? What do you think oxford dictionary updating is?

The people who compile dictionaries usually aren't the ones that create the words or the rules to them. Words have to be in circulation before they are added, which means some one who isn't employed by the dictionarians (lol I just made a word up) would of had to make the new word or meaning up. Oxford may set a brief but specific definition, but it's not like they just pull random meanings out of their ass... it has to be very similar to what the word meant before it was added or else what is the point of adding it? There are no rules on how to make these "rules" at the time the word was originally used.

" if it was considered wrong theyd have changed it" As we have discussed, words DO change and get additions. Just because oxford see's no problem with it doesn't mean they won't change it. It's not so much that they would consider the current definition wrong as much as they would just make additions that would be adequate for a more modern meaning.

Oxford is the most used dictionary, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them or their definitions, but to say that any other dictionary is wrong or worthless is plane ignorant. I am sure the requirements for adding new words to any dictionary are similar to those of oxford.  I mean what makes you think Oxford's words law? There are parallels between your view of superiority of this oxford book and religious people's view of their books. Perhaps if the most famous dictionary originated in my country (you live in UK if I am remembering correctly) I would be biased towards it as well.

Who is saying that belief = religion? That is just absurd.
What I am saying is that atheism ( more specifically the beliefs that usually accompany atheism) is just as much a belief system on how the universe works as any religion, which is basically the definition I used.

There should be a word that encompasses every belief system regarding the universe/nature. Currently 'religion' is the best word for this, in my opinion. Well its the best until oxford pulls a new one out of their ass.

If that tax free thing works out for you I'm totally crashing at your place.
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(edited by smotpoker86 on 07-13-12 08:29 PM)    

07-13-12 10:47 PM
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smotpoker86 : There are one or two other words that could sufficiently describe 'a belief system on how the world works', as you put it. Philosophy and religio-philosophy come to mind. Denomination might fight, though I'm really not all that convinced it would. If you want to be snarky, you could go with mythology.
smotpoker86 : There are one or two other words that could sufficiently describe 'a belief system on how the world works', as you put it. Philosophy and religio-philosophy come to mind. Denomination might fight, though I'm really not all that convinced it would. If you want to be snarky, you could go with mythology.
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07-14-12 04:43 AM
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smotpoker86 :
Yes, rules can change, but when debating whether something falls under a word you have to use the rules there, otherwise the whole debate is moot, i could claim chicken passes for an alternate word to religion.
I never stated every other one is wrong, but its certainly one of the most credible ones out there.
My debate with legs was that believing something made it religion, and that disbelief was interchangeable, hence atheism= religion.
You'll need to be ordained as a minister to avoid contravening my worship status.
Father jeremia kyle ithink.
smotpoker86 :
Yes, rules can change, but when debating whether something falls under a word you have to use the rules there, otherwise the whole debate is moot, i could claim chicken passes for an alternate word to religion.
I never stated every other one is wrong, but its certainly one of the most credible ones out there.
My debate with legs was that believing something made it religion, and that disbelief was interchangeable, hence atheism= religion.
You'll need to be ordained as a minister to avoid contravening my worship status.
Father jeremia kyle ithink.
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smotpoker86 :

"it's not like they just pull random meanings out of their ass..."

I believe that is the biggest problem with leggy's argument against thenumberone. He appeared to be pulling random meanings out of his ass and running with them.
smotpoker86 :

"it's not like they just pull random meanings out of their ass..."

I believe that is the biggest problem with leggy's argument against thenumberone. He appeared to be pulling random meanings out of his ass and running with them.
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07-16-12 11:07 AM
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I am an atheist and I have never considered atheism to be a religion. I think it is really the absence of a religion.
I am an atheist and I have never considered atheism to be a religion. I think it is really the absence of a religion.
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07-31-12 04:43 PM
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Yup, here's one right here *points to myself*
Yup, here's one right here *points to myself*
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Astynax27 : if Athiests dont believe in religion why  is it athiesm that would be a religion y cant they call em non believers better than sayin athiest

Astynax27 : if Athiests dont believe in religion why  is it athiesm that would be a religion y cant they call em non believers better than sayin athiest
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08-31-12 10:19 PM
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xDarkSniper1300x

Your sentence was a little hard to follow, but I think I know what you mean.

1st) Atheist means, "Doesn't believe in God" NOT "Doesn't believe in religion". Everyone believes in religion, because religion is a thing that exists -- whether we believe it's true or not, is a different story.

2nd) I don't know that "non-believer" would be better than "atheist", as I consider the terms to be generally synonymous. As for the term "atheist" being looked down upon, that's a whole different issue; an issue, perpetuated by people like former president H.W. Bush, who said that Atheists shouldn't be allowed to be citizens.

3rd) The main point of my post was against the idea of calling atheism a religion (or even a belief system of ANY kind). Atheism simply means "does not believe in a god (or gods)". Secular Humanism may include a variety of values and perspectives, but I don't believe that Atheism should be defined as, "whatever a particular Atheist's opinion happens to be." Nor do I believe that it's acceptable for religious people to group all Atheists BEYOND the above stated definition.

It IS okay to lump people of the same religion, however. That's not hypocrisy, because religion is based on very specific laws, rules, views, and beliefs -- outlined in holy texts. For a person to claim to be Catholic (for example) they are claiming to support and believe in the specifics outlined by the Catholic (in this example) doctrine. The degree to which they adhere to the doctrine is the degree to which they are good, truly devout, honest practitioners. The world is FULL of people who claim to be members of a religion and then act and speak in ways that directly contradict the beliefs to which they claim to adhere. This is actually one of my major problems with religion -- if the religious actually practiced the religion as it is, without exception, their views might change (or they may insist on strong revisions to reflect the modern world). So long as the buffet style, cherry-picking religious continue to group themselves under general terms, no changes will be insisted upon. 
xDarkSniper1300x

Your sentence was a little hard to follow, but I think I know what you mean.

1st) Atheist means, "Doesn't believe in God" NOT "Doesn't believe in religion". Everyone believes in religion, because religion is a thing that exists -- whether we believe it's true or not, is a different story.

2nd) I don't know that "non-believer" would be better than "atheist", as I consider the terms to be generally synonymous. As for the term "atheist" being looked down upon, that's a whole different issue; an issue, perpetuated by people like former president H.W. Bush, who said that Atheists shouldn't be allowed to be citizens.

3rd) The main point of my post was against the idea of calling atheism a religion (or even a belief system of ANY kind). Atheism simply means "does not believe in a god (or gods)". Secular Humanism may include a variety of values and perspectives, but I don't believe that Atheism should be defined as, "whatever a particular Atheist's opinion happens to be." Nor do I believe that it's acceptable for religious people to group all Atheists BEYOND the above stated definition.

It IS okay to lump people of the same religion, however. That's not hypocrisy, because religion is based on very specific laws, rules, views, and beliefs -- outlined in holy texts. For a person to claim to be Catholic (for example) they are claiming to support and believe in the specifics outlined by the Catholic (in this example) doctrine. The degree to which they adhere to the doctrine is the degree to which they are good, truly devout, honest practitioners. The world is FULL of people who claim to be members of a religion and then act and speak in ways that directly contradict the beliefs to which they claim to adhere. This is actually one of my major problems with religion -- if the religious actually practiced the religion as it is, without exception, their views might change (or they may insist on strong revisions to reflect the modern world). So long as the buffet style, cherry-picking religious continue to group themselves under general terms, no changes will be insisted upon. 
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(edited by Astynax27 on 08-31-12 11:29 PM)    

09-01-12 09:27 AM
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Do Atheists have a religion? Here is the definition from Wikipedia:

Religion
is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.

     So knowing this we can find out if in fact that Atheists have a religion. The first part of the definition is cultural systems. Do Atheists have cultural systems? Yes and no, they live by a double standard. With no God or overseer to tell right from wrong, they cannot have laws without Tyranny because everything is decided by a dictator or majority vote who might as well be corrupt!
     Next on the list is Belief systems. What do Atheists believe? They believe through faith that there was a big bang minerals that became fish that became reptiles that became (way down the line) Humans after millions of years! They were NOT there to see it happen so they have to believe with faith because there is no PROOF that any of these events happened
     Worldviews are covered next and how they relate to spirituality and moral values. As said earlier I said that because there is no God to them, so everything is decided by a King, Dictator, or Congress. With no one to lay down the line on what is right or wrong (which at this point can change at any time) leads to tyranny and corruption. So even they have no spiritual values they Certainly have moral values, that say that man is God!
     So yes they do have a religion, man is God.
Do Atheists have a religion? Here is the definition from Wikipedia:

Religion
is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.

     So knowing this we can find out if in fact that Atheists have a religion. The first part of the definition is cultural systems. Do Atheists have cultural systems? Yes and no, they live by a double standard. With no God or overseer to tell right from wrong, they cannot have laws without Tyranny because everything is decided by a dictator or majority vote who might as well be corrupt!
     Next on the list is Belief systems. What do Atheists believe? They believe through faith that there was a big bang minerals that became fish that became reptiles that became (way down the line) Humans after millions of years! They were NOT there to see it happen so they have to believe with faith because there is no PROOF that any of these events happened
     Worldviews are covered next and how they relate to spirituality and moral values. As said earlier I said that because there is no God to them, so everything is decided by a King, Dictator, or Congress. With no one to lay down the line on what is right or wrong (which at this point can change at any time) leads to tyranny and corruption. So even they have no spiritual values they Certainly have moral values, that say that man is God!
     So yes they do have a religion, man is God.
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bombchu link :

God is a far more evil dictator than any ruler who has ever lived. If you actually bothered to look at the holy texts, you would see that he is responsible for more murder and suffering than all of the world's dictators combined.

Your assertion, and it can barely be called that, that atheists are immoral because they lack a God to tell them right from wrong does nothing but show that you lack common sense. One does not need religion to know that killing, theft, rape, bigotry and oppression are wrong; however, one need only study religion to get approval for such things.

Lastly, if you bothered to READ my post, you would know that the definition of an Atheist is "one who does not believe in god or gods". You adding scientific theory to Atheism proves that you have not bothered to think. That having been said, if you actually understood science, you would know that there is an OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF PROOF. That you think the only means of proof is to see something first hand is funny, as no religious person ever can honestly claim to have seen God.
bombchu link :

God is a far more evil dictator than any ruler who has ever lived. If you actually bothered to look at the holy texts, you would see that he is responsible for more murder and suffering than all of the world's dictators combined.

Your assertion, and it can barely be called that, that atheists are immoral because they lack a God to tell them right from wrong does nothing but show that you lack common sense. One does not need religion to know that killing, theft, rape, bigotry and oppression are wrong; however, one need only study religion to get approval for such things.

Lastly, if you bothered to READ my post, you would know that the definition of an Atheist is "one who does not believe in god or gods". You adding scientific theory to Atheism proves that you have not bothered to think. That having been said, if you actually understood science, you would know that there is an OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF PROOF. That you think the only means of proof is to see something first hand is funny, as no religious person ever can honestly claim to have seen God.
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(edited by Astynax27 on 09-01-12 10:08 AM)    

09-02-12 08:07 PM
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The supreme court ruled Atheism is a religion back in 2005.

Case closed unless you think you're smarter than the Supreme Court.  
The supreme court ruled Atheism is a religion back in 2005.

Case closed unless you think you're smarter than the Supreme Court.  
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Shaedo K : There are several ways by which I am tempted to respond to that comment. The most sensible is probably something along the lines of "That ruling was made less to establish that atheism is a religion, and more to give it equal protection under first amendment rights." In many religions, the non-belief in certain deities is very important ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me"). To deny protection for people who lack belief in, say Allah, would be to deny protection for the religious views of most non-Muslims. Same thing with Jesus and non-Christians, and a plethora of other faith/deity mix-ups. The legal definition is somewhat different from the standard, and was used mostly to guarantee that each individual can have more freedom of conscience with regard to faith (or lack thereof).
TL;DR: The Supreme Court wanted to prevent discrimination against atheists, and oversimplified by calling it a religion.

On an easier-to-explain note, I would point out that the Supreme Court has made innumerable flawed rulings. They are rather clever people, usually, but they make plenty of mistakes that other people (even if they are less intelligent) might not. Their rulings certainly have no bearing on whether a statement is factual or not.
Shaedo K : There are several ways by which I am tempted to respond to that comment. The most sensible is probably something along the lines of "That ruling was made less to establish that atheism is a religion, and more to give it equal protection under first amendment rights." In many religions, the non-belief in certain deities is very important ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me"). To deny protection for people who lack belief in, say Allah, would be to deny protection for the religious views of most non-Muslims. Same thing with Jesus and non-Christians, and a plethora of other faith/deity mix-ups. The legal definition is somewhat different from the standard, and was used mostly to guarantee that each individual can have more freedom of conscience with regard to faith (or lack thereof).
TL;DR: The Supreme Court wanted to prevent discrimination against atheists, and oversimplified by calling it a religion.

On an easier-to-explain note, I would point out that the Supreme Court has made innumerable flawed rulings. They are rather clever people, usually, but they make plenty of mistakes that other people (even if they are less intelligent) might not. Their rulings certainly have no bearing on whether a statement is factual or not.
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Morsalbus : So is this kinda like domestic partnerships and letting gay people visit their dying lovers in hospitals and tax benefits and the like?   
Morsalbus : So is this kinda like domestic partnerships and letting gay people visit their dying lovers in hospitals and tax benefits and the like?   
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Wow that was rough, God and evil dictator, murder on innocent people, and I don't read the bible!?!

God never killed without reason, he made laws (or the correct translation is teachings) for us to follow in the Torah. He hates to kill people and send them to hell, he weeps over seeing them go to hell, and hell was never made for man it was made for the devil period.

I must apologise for not reading your post. . . I didn't think that the discussion had developed very far and that there were 3 pages of posts.
so, sorry.

BUT, what is right and what is wrong and do YOU think yourself as a good person? That is the question.
Wow that was rough, God and evil dictator, murder on innocent people, and I don't read the bible!?!

God never killed without reason, he made laws (or the correct translation is teachings) for us to follow in the Torah. He hates to kill people and send them to hell, he weeps over seeing them go to hell, and hell was never made for man it was made for the devil period.

I must apologise for not reading your post. . . I didn't think that the discussion had developed very far and that there were 3 pages of posts.
so, sorry.

BUT, what is right and what is wrong and do YOU think yourself as a good person? That is the question.
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09-03-12 11:37 PM
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bombchu link :

Okay, lets look at the most basic aspects of (since you mentioned the Torah) the Judeo-Christian God.

God is omniscient, he knows what we'll do before we do it. He created people, then didn't like how things were going, and flooded the whole Earth (according to scripture). That's one example of wide-spread genocide.  That probably didn't happen, however... but that depends on how much people actually believe.

Moses. One of the major characters. Led the Jews out of Egypt, wandered the desert for forty years (nevermind, for now, that there is NO archeological evidence for this). Killed THOUSANDS of people because God told him to:

"When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations--the Hittites, Girgas***es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you" Deuteronomy 7:1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xwZt8ypufE -- watch this. The whole movie is great, but watch this part.

What is right and wrong, is a matter of context, and I believe what the world needs more than strong laws are wise judges. Yes, I believe I am a good person.

bombchu link :

Okay, lets look at the most basic aspects of (since you mentioned the Torah) the Judeo-Christian God.

God is omniscient, he knows what we'll do before we do it. He created people, then didn't like how things were going, and flooded the whole Earth (according to scripture). That's one example of wide-spread genocide.  That probably didn't happen, however... but that depends on how much people actually believe.

Moses. One of the major characters. Led the Jews out of Egypt, wandered the desert for forty years (nevermind, for now, that there is NO archeological evidence for this). Killed THOUSANDS of people because God told him to:

"When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations--the Hittites, Girgas***es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you" Deuteronomy 7:1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xwZt8ypufE -- watch this. The whole movie is great, but watch this part.

What is right and wrong, is a matter of context, and I believe what the world needs more than strong laws are wise judges. Yes, I believe I am a good person.

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Shaedo K : Something along those lines, perhaps. I would argue religious freedom was a sort of fledgling concept when the constitution was drafted, and many people back then may not have even considered irreligion a possible issue. Therefore, I guess modern courts just stretch the definition to keep public policy functionally reasonable. That's my optimistic guess at the motives, at least.
Shaedo K : Something along those lines, perhaps. I would argue religious freedom was a sort of fledgling concept when the constitution was drafted, and many people back then may not have even considered irreligion a possible issue. Therefore, I guess modern courts just stretch the definition to keep public policy functionally reasonable. That's my optimistic guess at the motives, at least.
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09-04-12 06:43 AM
thenumberone is Offline
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thenumberone
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bombchu link :
Wow, that is bunk.
Man had morals before christianity and islam entered the scene, and the one point where religion ruled was called the dark ages, the removal of religion did away with dictators.
There is evidence of the big bang.
And atheists dont believe theyre god.
In the bible, satan kills about 14 people.
God kills upwards of the milions.
More than adolf hitler.
Shaedo K :
The same supreme court that upheld segregation, slavery and bans on sodomy?
I know im smarter than the 'supreme' court.
Its funny, in the uk they tried to pass a law making hate speech against any religion an offence.
Ironicaly, that would havd made the bible and quaran ilegal texts, since they bash each other repeatedly.
Im off to commit acts of evil now since apparently being atheist means i have no morals.
bombchu link :
Wow, that is bunk.
Man had morals before christianity and islam entered the scene, and the one point where religion ruled was called the dark ages, the removal of religion did away with dictators.
There is evidence of the big bang.
And atheists dont believe theyre god.
In the bible, satan kills about 14 people.
God kills upwards of the milions.
More than adolf hitler.
Shaedo K :
The same supreme court that upheld segregation, slavery and bans on sodomy?
I know im smarter than the 'supreme' court.
Its funny, in the uk they tried to pass a law making hate speech against any religion an offence.
Ironicaly, that would havd made the bible and quaran ilegal texts, since they bash each other repeatedly.
Im off to commit acts of evil now since apparently being atheist means i have no morals.
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09-04-12 10:54 AM
Hoochman is Offline
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Hoochman
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Looking at atheism, there are similarities. They're both systems rooted in faith. One has faith that there is a god, and the other has faith that there isn't. Now I have heard Atheists preach that Atheism isn't full of rituals and regulations like religion is. And somehow there is no life philosophy in atheism like there is religion. In my experience with atheists, that last statement isn't even remotely true. At least with every atheist I've met, most adhere to secular liberal way of life that stems from them being atheist. There worldviews are all the same. I suppose atheism is a little looser in that regard. I don't really think that most atheists have a valid reason for saying that atheism is completely different from religion. I think most just don't like religion.
Looking at atheism, there are similarities. They're both systems rooted in faith. One has faith that there is a god, and the other has faith that there isn't. Now I have heard Atheists preach that Atheism isn't full of rituals and regulations like religion is. And somehow there is no life philosophy in atheism like there is religion. In my experience with atheists, that last statement isn't even remotely true. At least with every atheist I've met, most adhere to secular liberal way of life that stems from them being atheist. There worldviews are all the same. I suppose atheism is a little looser in that regard. I don't really think that most atheists have a valid reason for saying that atheism is completely different from religion. I think most just don't like religion.
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09-04-12 03:36 PM
Astynax27 is Offline
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Hoochman : There is no such thing as belief in a negative in the sense you're suggesting. Atheists have heard the claim of theists that there is a god, and have asked for definitive proof. No such proof has ever been presented. Atheists have refused to simply "take the word of theists" until such proof occurs.

Where there is actual evidence, there is no need for faith.

Atheists don't have faith. We have evidence, skepticism, and logic.

When I say, "I don't believe that God exists" what I mean is: there is no evidence suggesting such a being, but since disproving a negative is impossible, my best assertion is that god does not exist.

Please don't be mislead by the use of the word "believe". If you were at my house and I offered you dessert and said, we have cake... but I don't believe we still have ice cream -- this would not imply a matter of faith regarding a lack of ice cream.

Lastly, PLEASE STOP ADDING to the definition of Atheism. Atheism means one thing and one thing only: "does not believe in god or gods." Any other similarities among atheists are coincidental and/or culturally influenced. So much confusion about Atheism being a belief system comes from adding things to the above-written definition.
Hoochman : There is no such thing as belief in a negative in the sense you're suggesting. Atheists have heard the claim of theists that there is a god, and have asked for definitive proof. No such proof has ever been presented. Atheists have refused to simply "take the word of theists" until such proof occurs.

Where there is actual evidence, there is no need for faith.

Atheists don't have faith. We have evidence, skepticism, and logic.

When I say, "I don't believe that God exists" what I mean is: there is no evidence suggesting such a being, but since disproving a negative is impossible, my best assertion is that god does not exist.

Please don't be mislead by the use of the word "believe". If you were at my house and I offered you dessert and said, we have cake... but I don't believe we still have ice cream -- this would not imply a matter of faith regarding a lack of ice cream.

Lastly, PLEASE STOP ADDING to the definition of Atheism. Atheism means one thing and one thing only: "does not believe in god or gods." Any other similarities among atheists are coincidental and/or culturally influenced. So much confusion about Atheism being a belief system comes from adding things to the above-written definition.
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(edited by Astynax27 on 09-04-12 04:15 PM)    

09-05-12 08:25 AM
bombchu link is Offline
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bombchu link
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Astynax27 : If you believe you are a good person then have you ever told a lie? And if so how many?

thenumberone : Christianity was there from the start when God made Adam and Eve. But yes I hated the dark times when the Catholics ruled Europe and banned true Christianity from the people. They wouldn't let them read the bible ( it wasn't in the common language at the time, it was in Latin instead of Germany.) because if they did the people would find out that the King and religious leaders are corrupt in thinking and practise. This is also why the pilgrims left Europe, because of the tyranny of taxes and prosecution against them.
Astynax27 : If you believe you are a good person then have you ever told a lie? And if so how many?

thenumberone : Christianity was there from the start when God made Adam and Eve. But yes I hated the dark times when the Catholics ruled Europe and banned true Christianity from the people. They wouldn't let them read the bible ( it wasn't in the common language at the time, it was in Latin instead of Germany.) because if they did the people would find out that the King and religious leaders are corrupt in thinking and practise. This is also why the pilgrims left Europe, because of the tyranny of taxes and prosecution against them.
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