One question before I answer, do you believe in the rapture of the church before the tribulation period?

tRIUNE :
As Christian beliefs go, I think that believing in the rapture is a fundamental part your faith.  It sort of starts the whole thing, if I recall.

Ok. See, the Bible says that Christians aren't appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation, this is why spreading the Gospel is necessary. It's to make people aware of what the Bible says and so that they can determine if they want to believe it or not. It's not because we want to see judgement day come, it's because we want people to escape it.

I don't think trying to tell people about Jesus Christ is speeding anything up.

We assume that our efforts, or lack thereof, haven't already been accounted for but I think they have. The date is set. God knows it. Whether we choose to help or not is already known to Him so nothing about the plan actually changes in my mind.

warmaker : I already know that this subject is controversial which is why I limited what I've already said, but about your question, I believe that there are people who are destined to be saved and when everyone who is destined is saved, then the Rapture will come.

Read Romans 8:29-30 for what I'm basing this from:

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

tRIUNE : Note that this is not against your post, I agree with you, but to clear something up:

These verses are not saying that God "chose" any specific people to be Christians; some people will take it a little to literally and claim that "predestination" means there are some people who God decided would be Christians and others would have no chance. Rather, here, as evidenced by the verse saying He foreknew, God simply knows who will take the gift and who won't. Salvation is open to everyone, but being God, God knows who will accept and who won't, thus Paul's use of the word predestined.

bigNATE : Exactly, I just was a being cautious in what I said bout that, lol.

warmaker : Nate's post explains better what I was saying.

bigNATE :
Now this is an interesting subject.  Predestination then, isn't the best word for it?  It's actually something that doesn't need a title.  If it's part of God's infinite... hmmm how do I put this?  It doesn't affect will, God just knows already.  So then the question as to whether even acting on certain impulses based on the idea that your fate is predetermined is weak sauce.  You should strive for the best and God knows how it will turn out.

Is that correct? Albeit poorly worded

cob : I get what you're saying, and that's exactly what I mean. It's not that God makes us do anything, just that He knows we'll do it and thus has it as part of His plan.

bigNATE : I always hear about God's plan or other phrases meaning the same thing, but I am unaware of any mention of this sort of predestined fate in the Bible. If you ( or any one else knows) could  point me out a verse/s that would suggest this sort of "plan" it would be greatly appreciated.

I was under the impression that free will meant we decide our own fate and it wasn't all ready set in stone ( even if that means we don't know what the outcome is)

bigNATE : I disagree. (In Christian love, of course )

Paul uses the word "predestined" a lot, but they were written not only that God knows who gets saved, but that God takes part in the saving. Like what was written in Romans, God not only foreknew, but also predestined AND called AND justified AND finally glorified. This is an example of "Ordo salutis" or the "Order of Salvation" When you look at other times that Paul talks about predestined, he used it with words like "adoption as sons" and "inheritance" (Ephesians 1), alluding to God's part in one's salvation. To add to that, it is written that they were predestined "according to the purposes of His will", not according to people's will.

Jesus also spoke that "I chose you and appointed you that you may bear fruit and that your fruit may abide." (John 15:16)

We can also see examples in the Bible where God has clear involvement in bringing someone to Christ. Paul again, would be a good example. He was a persecutor of Christians during the early church, the feared Saul, but then he became a Christian. How? Through the revealing of Jesus Himself on the road to Damascus (Acts 9) and He became one of the greatest missionaries of the early church. God plans Paul's conversion, and took a major role in bringing Paul to salvation. Other examples include Peter's vision to preach to the gentile, Cornelius (Acts 10), which was forbidden at first by the Jews, and the conversion of Lydia, who, if it weren't for God's vision to Paul to go to Macedonia, the gospel would not have been reached there. (Acts 16)

You don't need to just see it in terms of eternal salvation either. You can see God doing so on other "Salvations." For example, I did a study on Jeremiah this past semester, and many people's favorite verse to use is Jeremiah 29:11. (smotpoker86: Here's an example for you!) The context of the verse is that the Israelites have been exiled to Babylon but Jeremiah sent them a letter that entails this verse: "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." This verse not only says that the LORD knows, but that He planned it. And one of the overarching themes is that the Israelites would return 70 yrs after the exile, and they did. It is the promise that God made, and it was planned by Him. Sadly, many Christians nowadays focus on the "hope and future" part of the verse, thinking it is for them, when they should be focusing on the "Plans I have for you" part, that God is in control of their future.

Jonah says it well in his prayer: "Salvation belongs to the Lord!" (Jonah 2:9)

So it is not because of our decisions that we became Christians, but because God foreknew and predestined those to be saved. This is not to say that we don't have free will. It was still our human decision to come to Christ, but that decision is part of God's big plan to save us. All our other decisions are also no surprise to God, and they are all following God's purpose and will.

cob : Now you'll have to explain this to me, lol, I've heard of video game dungeon master, but I actually don't know the abilities and how they relate to this.

tRIUNE :
Bah, it's not necessarily gamer terms.  It's a D&D reference, the dungeon master being the one who controls the rules, environment, challenges, everything but the playable characters.

if we are a video game, God is the AI.

I'm going to jump back here and tell my answer to the first question. First I would like people to know that I used to be, in a way, Christian. But through my experiences and what have read in the bible, I have pulled away from the faith and into the role of "interested bystander who will argue fro both sides."
I have read, in the bible mind you, that god said that no one would know the day of rapture, so then there is either not a set date for it or it will happen one day while everyone is sitting on the toilet reading time magazine. Now that somebody is going around saying "I KNOW WHEN THE WORLDS GONNA END" is total poop. If no ones going to know when it ends, the no one will know when it ends. This also corresponds to when the bible states that rapture will come when everyone gets the chance to hear the word of god. If that's true, then the bible lied and some one found out when rapture will come or whoever wrote the part about rapture's coming when everyone has the chance to hear of god is blowing smoke out their behind. These controversies being one of the reasons I'm no longer Christian.
Finally, for all intents and purposes, I would like to state that if their have been predestined people to enter heaven during rapture, then everyone else my as well rape whoever they can because they're not getting anything. If not, then I have a question to ask. If god loves all his children and is such a forgiving person, then why doesn't he just give us all a free ticket to heaven and get it over with now?
Personally, I don't think he cares.
If you wish to argue against my point, feel free to. You just might change my point of view on things. Also feel free to send me any questions you wish to ask in private, my Email is Shadow_Statsi@yahoo.com.

LastManStanding :
I think the idea is that God knows and you don't. Strive to be the best person you can and you're more likely to be on the VIP list.

LastManStanding : It's not based on everyone having heard the Gospel, predestination is when everyone who is destined to be saved has put their faith in Christ. God already knows who will and won't put their faith in Christ, but the decision is still ours whether or not we will.

tRUINE: well, if that's true, then that says that our future is set in stone. If someone already knows what another is going to do, then there is truly no such thing as free will. We do what is put before us. Now, if there is free will, that would mean that every one's actions would be, by definition, unpredictable. Meaning that nobody, not even god, can know what they will or will not do. And please know that this is just how I view it.