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The Lord is the only way to heaven!

 

07-09-10 07:17 PM
tRIUNE is Offline
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tRIUNE
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It’s disturbing to think that ¾ of mankind in history & present have and will go to hell for not accepting Jesus. God is just in judging one for their sins but God is also love, and for the judgment of one who has never heard the gospel would contradict His nature of love. There’s no clear answer, this is God’s department, no one but God can know for sure about those who haven’t heard. But there have been accounts in the Old Testament of righteous individuals based solely on their faith in God, not because they were an Israelite &/or believed in Christianity.

But the judgment is this: ‘the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.’ (Romans 1:18-20)

If it’s not Christianity you believe in, the Bible says if you seek God you will find Him when you search with all your heart, ‘I will be found by you says the LORD.’ (Jeremiah 29:13, 14) If you diligently seek God I believe the road will lead you to Jesus. The Bible also stands alone for its criticism. No book has been more attacked for its accuracy. And yet archeologists are proving every year that the Bible’s detailed descriptions of historic events are correct.

It’s disturbing to think that ¾ of mankind in history & present have and will go to hell for not accepting Jesus. God is just in judging one for their sins but God is also love, and for the judgment of one who has never heard the gospel would contradict His nature of love. There’s no clear answer, this is God’s department, no one but God can know for sure about those who haven’t heard. But there have been accounts in the Old Testament of righteous individuals based solely on their faith in God, not because they were an Israelite &/or believed in Christianity.

But the judgment is this: ‘the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.’ (Romans 1:18-20)

If it’s not Christianity you believe in, the Bible says if you seek God you will find Him when you search with all your heart, ‘I will be found by you says the LORD.’ (Jeremiah 29:13, 14) If you diligently seek God I believe the road will lead you to Jesus. The Bible also stands alone for its criticism. No book has been more attacked for its accuracy. And yet archeologists are proving every year that the Bible’s detailed descriptions of historic events are correct.

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07-09-10 08:07 PM
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JigSaw : So you're saying that because a book sells well that makes it fiction? Your point there makes no sense.
tRIUNE : Your post confuses me a little... you seem to be taking both sides. Care to explain a little?

geeo and I had a (rather off topic ) discussion about this kind of thing in another thread. Here's what I've said:
Romans 2: 14-15 says: " 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)"
The law is written on their hearts, they have no excuse, even if they have not heard of the Bible, God has given them evidence of Himself... so they are not fully without excuse. One can argue that they won't know of Christ Himself and true repentance, but that's what missionaries are for. So you are only partially correct. tRIUNE is damning millions if and only if he is passing up opportunities to spread the message, or to help others spread the message (i.e., giving money to missionaries).
So whether they've heard or not, yes people who die without accepting Christ go to hell... but that it humans' fault. Were it not for events like Babel, we would all still be functionally one huge society, and spreading the Good News would be much easier.

When geeo asked about those born before Jesus:
That was when Judaism was important. Those who believed in God and upheld Jewish laws prior to Jesus' death were sent to a place called Abraham's Bosom, a sort of "waiting room" if you'll call it that, where they awaited Christ's preparation of Heaven.
Also, people had even less of an excuse back then. Much of the world was more centralized, and one could obtain a place in Abraham's Bosom merely by repenting, trying to uphold moral law, and making sacrifices to the correct God.

When geeo responded with this:
[sigh] you guys just don't get it.

You're telling me that it is okay for the people that lived before Jesus who never knew about a savior to be condemned to hell? Where is the justice? God put those people where he did.... and didn't provide a way for them to learn about Jesus.... and somehow this is all okay?

and play4fun - faith is how everyone is saved... and I understand that what Jesus did applies to people before and after his birth.... my point is: if you had no knowledge of Jesus then you go to hell... regardless of when you were born.

I explained:
*sigh* You don't seem to understand what we're saying. GOD DIDN'T DO THIS. All this, all the people who will never know? This is OUR FAULT. Humanity's fault. So, how do believers make up for that? They try to tell everyone they can. Jesus' solution to your so-called problem: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)
That's what we must do today, that's what had to happen before Christ, that's how it has happened throughout all eternity. Man screwed up, that's why there are people who don't know in the first place.
Of course I'm not OK with it, and I do all I can to reverse the trend of not knowing about God, although that isn't much yet. However, I still must face the fact that there are billions of people who never knew, who don't know, and who will never know, and who will unfortunately go to Hell for it. I want that number to stop growing. I will fight for it to stop growing. And if we can get enough Christians to pitch in, it will stop growing.
Then he claimed that that made it God's fault for putting them in those areas that would be hard to reach, knowing they wouldn't hear.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
geeogree : How does that make it God's fault? We're not mindless robots, we've been given free will... so how does that make our choices God's fault? Just because He knows we'll make these mistakes and put ourselves in a situation to not hear about Him doesn't mean it's His fault for not stopping us, when He's said that He's given us free will. He wants us to love Him. However, due to humanity's choices, with mistakes like the Tower of Babel, we've rejected Him to the point that there have been, and sadly will for a long time be, people who just won't hear about Him. But that's not his fault. Humanity put itself there, after God basically said "It's up to you guys whether you listen and put yourselves on a path that leads to salvation or not", and we screwed up. Why does that make it God's fault?
JigSaw : So you're saying that because a book sells well that makes it fiction? Your point there makes no sense.
tRIUNE : Your post confuses me a little... you seem to be taking both sides. Care to explain a little?

geeo and I had a (rather off topic ) discussion about this kind of thing in another thread. Here's what I've said:
Romans 2: 14-15 says: " 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)"
The law is written on their hearts, they have no excuse, even if they have not heard of the Bible, God has given them evidence of Himself... so they are not fully without excuse. One can argue that they won't know of Christ Himself and true repentance, but that's what missionaries are for. So you are only partially correct. tRIUNE is damning millions if and only if he is passing up opportunities to spread the message, or to help others spread the message (i.e., giving money to missionaries).
So whether they've heard or not, yes people who die without accepting Christ go to hell... but that it humans' fault. Were it not for events like Babel, we would all still be functionally one huge society, and spreading the Good News would be much easier.

When geeo asked about those born before Jesus:
That was when Judaism was important. Those who believed in God and upheld Jewish laws prior to Jesus' death were sent to a place called Abraham's Bosom, a sort of "waiting room" if you'll call it that, where they awaited Christ's preparation of Heaven.
Also, people had even less of an excuse back then. Much of the world was more centralized, and one could obtain a place in Abraham's Bosom merely by repenting, trying to uphold moral law, and making sacrifices to the correct God.

When geeo responded with this:
[sigh] you guys just don't get it.

You're telling me that it is okay for the people that lived before Jesus who never knew about a savior to be condemned to hell? Where is the justice? God put those people where he did.... and didn't provide a way for them to learn about Jesus.... and somehow this is all okay?

and play4fun - faith is how everyone is saved... and I understand that what Jesus did applies to people before and after his birth.... my point is: if you had no knowledge of Jesus then you go to hell... regardless of when you were born.

I explained:
*sigh* You don't seem to understand what we're saying. GOD DIDN'T DO THIS. All this, all the people who will never know? This is OUR FAULT. Humanity's fault. So, how do believers make up for that? They try to tell everyone they can. Jesus' solution to your so-called problem: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)
That's what we must do today, that's what had to happen before Christ, that's how it has happened throughout all eternity. Man screwed up, that's why there are people who don't know in the first place.
Of course I'm not OK with it, and I do all I can to reverse the trend of not knowing about God, although that isn't much yet. However, I still must face the fact that there are billions of people who never knew, who don't know, and who will never know, and who will unfortunately go to Hell for it. I want that number to stop growing. I will fight for it to stop growing. And if we can get enough Christians to pitch in, it will stop growing.
Then he claimed that that made it God's fault for putting them in those areas that would be hard to reach, knowing they wouldn't hear.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
geeogree : How does that make it God's fault? We're not mindless robots, we've been given free will... so how does that make our choices God's fault? Just because He knows we'll make these mistakes and put ourselves in a situation to not hear about Him doesn't mean it's His fault for not stopping us, when He's said that He's given us free will. He wants us to love Him. However, due to humanity's choices, with mistakes like the Tower of Babel, we've rejected Him to the point that there have been, and sadly will for a long time be, people who just won't hear about Him. But that's not his fault. Humanity put itself there, after God basically said "It's up to you guys whether you listen and put yourselves on a path that leads to salvation or not", and we screwed up. Why does that make it God's fault?
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07-09-10 09:39 PM
tRIUNE is Offline
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tRIUNE
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bigNATE : The confusion, from what I can understand, is because I said there were righteous people only because of their faith in God. There might be people in the world, possibly the deep Amazon for an example, that might never hear the gospel and die in their sins. What about them? My intent is convey the possibility of their salvation based on their faith, because God is love, & might not judge one, as such, if they are ignorant of sin but had faith in Him because of their conscience. But if they are suppressing God it's a different story. By no means am I excluding the need for Jesus: in a well populated area it's impossible to not be exposed to any form of religion. The need for the gospel is to convince the right religion.
bigNATE : The confusion, from what I can understand, is because I said there were righteous people only because of their faith in God. There might be people in the world, possibly the deep Amazon for an example, that might never hear the gospel and die in their sins. What about them? My intent is convey the possibility of their salvation based on their faith, because God is love, & might not judge one, as such, if they are ignorant of sin but had faith in Him because of their conscience. But if they are suppressing God it's a different story. By no means am I excluding the need for Jesus: in a well populated area it's impossible to not be exposed to any form of religion. The need for the gospel is to convince the right religion.
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07-09-10 09:50 PM
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tRIUNE : OK, I think I get it now... you're saying if people living out in remote, un-evangelized places find God's truth within, as Paul said, then they'll go to heaven... I see your point. I guess it depends on the person... whether they actually discover their need for Christ and repent and call for forgiveness, or whether they simply believe God exists and try to do good because of it. But I understand what you're saying, and it is a valid point... but we still must make sure we reach them, as the latter attitude is likely to be more prominent.
tRIUNE : OK, I think I get it now... you're saying if people living out in remote, un-evangelized places find God's truth within, as Paul said, then they'll go to heaven... I see your point. I guess it depends on the person... whether they actually discover their need for Christ and repent and call for forgiveness, or whether they simply believe God exists and try to do good because of it. But I understand what you're saying, and it is a valid point... but we still must make sure we reach them, as the latter attitude is likely to be more prominent.
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07-12-10 01:12 AM
tRIUNE is Offline
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tRIUNE
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If humankind could have reached God any other way, Jesus would not have had to die. His voluntary death on the cross makes this fact even more compelling.
If humankind could have reached God any other way, Jesus would not have had to die. His voluntary death on the cross makes this fact even more compelling.
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