This thread is mostly a lesson in tact, charisma, and argumentation. This thread itself will offer little of the arguments themselves to the positions within. So, if you disagree with what I write here, keep in mind it's not written in an attempt to convince you. Feel free to express your distaste within the thread though.

So feminism is often touted as one of the next great steps in mankind in removing injustice. While equality is surely something to be sought after, I believe much of the feminist movement is truly a superiority complex. Worse, I believe this "women are equal to men" often means "women can be men too". This is absurd and ultimately more degrading to women.

Femininity should be praised with masculinity. Certainly, femininity is not the same as masculinity, and femininity is not better than masculinity. We must respect the real difference between the two sexes and praise them for their uniqueness.

One of the worst results of this feminism movement is abortion. I find this to be as anti-woman as can be. Abortion is the artificial termination of a pregnancy. Why is this done? Because feminism has taught women that pregnancy is bad. Pregnancy is weakness. Pregnancy is an obstacle. Hopefully, you can already see where I'm going here: pregnancy is specifically feminine. Pregnancy shouldn't be viewed as a dangerous weakness within women, but if feminism is a good thing, pregnancy should be honored! Pregnancy is the most obvious uniqueness of womanhood, and yet feminism so often teaches that pregnancy is this awful, encumbering, parasitic nine months of existence. No part of femininity should be viewed as encumbering, but femininity should be honored. And the worst part of it all is most abortions are performed at the encouragement of the man. Men want women to get abortions because they can't handle a real woman.

To argue this to the pro-choice feminist requires a good chunk of tact. The arguments saying "but it's a person" are certainly true, but they also seem to be largely ineffective. Instead of arguing with logic (which is dry and over-intellectualizes the problem), let's argue through shared values. The pro-choice feminist wants to honor women too, they're simply mistaken on how to do so. This is the route our arguments need to take. Pregnancy is directly associated to womanhood, and womanhood is not a weakness or a lesser existence. If every woman is to be honored for being a woman, every pregnancy is to be honored as well. To divide pregnancy and femininity is to assert part of femininity as bad, and this is precisely what feminists should be against. It would be a fair assumption to think pro-choice feminists also value science, strength, and justice. These must be agreed upon. Science is good. Talk about how science values pregnancy. Strength is good. Talk about the strength of pregnant women. Justice is good. Talk about how it is unjust to treat women as second class. This kind of argumentation through values, may not proceed logically, and that's ok. It's not a lesser argument because values are also rationally supported, it just focuses the argument on what really matters: valuing women as women, and valuing all people as people.

I really like what you had to say in this thread. In a way its gives me some sort of hope when I would get to that stage soon enough. You stated clearly the facts what is truth, and what is not truth. I don't know if others would agree with your views here of what you said. But, for me its enough to support you on what you have said. Because you gave some sense of justice, and encouragement as well.

I don't think pregnancy itself is viewed as bad so much as unplanned pregnancy.

The main goal here is to not abort your baby if you accidentally get pregnant.

 I think you're all missing the point since txgangsta's main point seemed to be more about the type of arguments used rather than trying to incite a discussion on abortion. At least that's how I interpreted the post (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

Personally I think arguing through shared values may hold some merit but I don't think purely doing so is a good idea. Logical arguments should be treated as an important part of the debate. I feel like our ultimate goal should be to have an educated populus and encouraging the spread of information, not one where things are dumbed down purely for the sake of convenience. There are ways to convey these arguments without actually making them incomprehensible even if one isn't of an academic background. I also feel, that to not employ different kinds of arguments ultimately has the risk of them becoming no longer relevant. Which seems to be the wrong way to go about it when encouraging different ways of looking at things.

Now moving over onto the actual debate on abortion I completely disagree for a number reasons. I feel like this concerns the woman body and her life thus the choice of what to do assuming she's within the legal limit is up to her. Overall I am off the belief that until a fetus have reached a certain month of pregnancy it shouldn't be considered a person. A fetus in the stage an abortion is done cannot feel anything, think or survive on its own because it hasn't developed far enough mentally. To put it in another way I feel it lacks what makes humans, "human". Now while I understand that there may be religious reasons to be against abortions I don't think that gives people the right to forbid those who chose to not follow that religion from having one. That's also without taking into consideration people who couldn't help becoming pregnant because they were raped.

Aside from being the choice of the woman I think it's also ultimately the best option for both sides. Children won't have to be brought up in a home that either doesn't want them or simply can't even support them to begin with (meaning they might end up in an orphanage). The fetus doesn't suffer physically (doesn't feel pain) or mentally (can't even form thoughts to begin with so how can it have the will to live) so I don't see how you're somehow commiting a crime against it. We're far more cruel to other FULLY developed species that can feel pain and even display some signs of possibly having some level of consciousness without really thinking twice about it.

I also feel like your and many others' interpretation of what feminism stands for is off. It's ultimately about equality between the sexes and not forcing or pressuring people to live by the traditional gender roles associated with a certain sex. Now while there are people who seem to only see men as some sort of oppressors these make up far from the majority of people who call themselves feminist and are in fact a very vocal minority. It's really about having the freedom to do with your life and your body as you wish regardless of if you are a man or woman. For example being able to pursue a lifestyle that may be more associated with the other sex and having control over your own body. Of course if you would rather embrace living by those gender roles then you have the option to do that too, the main point is one shouldn't feel pressured into it. In either case this naturally includes the choice to have (or not have) an abortion.

Zlinqx : While I agree that logic arguments are extremely valuable, many people don't care about logic. However, this discussion only includes people that care about women. I think that the value "I care about women" can be logically beneficial in arguing against abortion. Here, I'll use it against you. You said:

"It's really about having the freedom to do with your life and your body as you wish regardless of if you are a man or woman."

So, you don't value women. You value freedom "regardless", in spite of sex. That isn't the same. You're not a feminist unless you value women as women, including all aspects that make them women. This includes pregnancy. We need to honor women for being women, what you have proposed is to honor women in spite of their womanliness. That's really demeaning. I encourage you to instead honor their womanliness and all within, including pregnancy.

Txgangsta : I'm saying "regardless" as in one shouldn't pay it mind, your sex shouldn't play into the equation. For example it shouldn't affect your chances to become a CEO of a company. This isn't about ignoring the fact that there are two different sexes or trying to shame typically masculine or feminine ways of living but rather about guaranteeing equal opportunity in life and not have people judge simply based on your sex.  This is also why I always said both "man or woman" in stead of just one or the other.

Now from what I understand, you see the way to achieve gender equality as valuing these characteristics, valuing what makes a man and a woman biologically different and basing our attitudes on that. I don't agree with that as the way to achieve gender equality. I feel like that type of thinking is what ultimately causes inequality and pushes people towards a certain mould of living because that results in it being considered "their natural responsibility in life". It becomes expected of people to live by certain predefined gender roles. This is directly counterintuitive to what modern feminism is trying to achieve. To give you the choice of how you want to live by not forcing or pressuring you to live by a certain mould. To reflect that we all have different outlooks on life.

You're pregnant and have short time frame to humanely prevent going into an unprepared, or unwanting parent situation.

You're trying to get help with an abortion but people stand in your way to convince you that you're wrong, and "killing" a life that hasn't even started yet.
They don't care that you're not ready, that you're not in a good neighborhood, you don't have good prospects, you're still finding your footing, because you haven't thought it through, but they have.

Food for thought, guys.

Zlinqx :

Anti-abortion says that these women do not deserve respect or a choice, wanting them to suffer.
You may have heard it all before, but that doesn't mean you're listening.

On3On :

Pro-choice cannot respect women as women because it says precisely what makes them a woman is cumbersome. Abortion does not respect them as a woman. It says that being a woman is a struggle that should be removed. This is demeaning towards women, and we should never support anything that doesn't honor their womanliness.

Txgangsta : Looking past the "fetus having rights" point of view, I don't see how it is up to us to decide how a woman should live. It's not like we're advocating forcing everyone to have abortions. One is free to not have one and try convince other people to do the same. However you're against it based on the idea that it's "unwomanly" which means you assume that every woman is the same because of their biology and have the same outlook and goals in life, that I feel would be doing women injustice by gravely misrepresenting them. It would also stripping them of the right to their own body.

On that account I also don't see how it is unwomanly to allow women to wait until they feel ready to have a child and experience pregnancy. I'm not saying pregnancy itself should be shamed or discouraged, that would be moronic in my opinion, considering we're all products of one. I also don't understand where you're getting the idea that I'm pro choice because "I find the biology of the sexes cumbersome" I stated in that post: "it's not about ignoring that there are two different sexes".

Modern Feminism is about honoring both women and men because you're defending their right to choose their own path in life, giving them equal opportunity. The different sexes should be acknowledged and can play a role in society, in love for example. However it shouldn't be something that acts as a barrier that makes it impossible to pursue your personal goals in life.

Zlinqx : You're not reading my argument. Don't read into what I say. I have never said "lets go out and control other people". It's not coming out of my mouth. Ever. So, read what I write below. Respond to what I write below. Don't read into it.

Women are to be honored. Pregnancy is a specifically womanly thing. Disdain for pregnancy is disdain for womanliness because to be pregnancy is specifically womanly. The biological and psychological makeup that is "woman" must be respected. Pregnancy, entirely womanly, must be respected. Abortion does not do that. Abortion disrespects women by disrespecting pregnancy.

There. I didn't mention control. I didn't mention politics. I mentioned respect and honor. Tell me how abortion respects women as women. Don't tell me I should ignore gender because that doesn't respect gender. This is respect issue, an honor issue. Women are not men. Men are not women. We shouldn't ever blur those lines. To do so dishonors both.

Txgangsta : And nowhere did I state that I consider the differences between sexes "cumbersome". You've been reading into what I'm saying this entire time. I don't get how we're "blurring the lines" by allowing equal opportunity in life. .

I already mentioned this in the last post but I will do so again. Being pro choice does not mean I have a disdain for pregnancy nor do I understand what implies that it would. I'm not shaming pregnancy, I'm not saying pregnancy should be looked down upon and that one shouldn't experience it. I'm saying each woman should go through it when they actually feel ready to do so because it marks a major new part of woman's life. Because neither of us are a woman we do not know what it feels like. Thus men should respect women as women but also as individuals. In this case I believe the way to do this is to trust their judgement on a matter that regards them by letting them make a choice of their own. Not doing that is to me putting the idea of womanhood before the actual women themselves which I don't agree with.

What you're saying is that it's okay for all these women to be shunned and disrespected and denied the choice.

Are you sick

Zlinqx : What do you mean by "equal opportunity"? Do you mean that women have extra burdens because they are women? And abortion helps them free themselves of these womanly burdens?

On3On : You're obviously irrational. Be gone.

It's an open discussion, and you've not made sense. That's seriously wrong on a subject about basic human rights.
The best most of these women get for seeking information or the option for abortion is harrassment, and to so blatantly be unaware of this current common issue is indicative of your priorities.

haha what a concept it is that things can change with time!
you should probably keep up with current events if you want to put your two cents in on feminism.

Txgangsta : The obstacle is not womanhood itself but rather the preconceived notions many have about women including employers. For example that they're best off as housewives and so how that should be the direction their lives should take. Or simply thinking they're not as capable. I'm not saying being a housewife in itself is wrong but that's a lifestyle women should choose for themselves, because they want to.

Abortion does help women in giving them equal opportunity since being able to have one means they can focus on other aspects of their life in stead of having to settle down and have children, should they wish to do so. It also means that like most men in the west, they can have full control over their own body.