I believe dinosaurs still exist to an extent, where are the remaining ones? I think there are tons in the sea we have no idea about. Theres places so deep in the sea humans can not go there.

One question I think is most important would be, if dinosaurs got killed off by some astroid or ice age, how did the other animals come about such as dogs, lions, birds, etc... basically all the animals we see in todays world? Makes you wonder and conclude that god made man and animals after dinosaurs.

Unless the animals evolved into what we see today, the whole god made man and animal at same time does not match up unless we are talking about the animals that existed after the dinosaurs.

Originally posted by JigSaw

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I believe dinosaurs still exist to an extent, where are the remaining ones? I think there are tons in the sea we have no idea about. Theres places so deep in the sea humans can not go there.

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I can't believe I didn't bring this up before, but the Bloop and similar unidentified underwater sounds still haven't been identified. Many people treat this as evidence/proof of some massive sea creature (coughnessie) existing.

it might be evidence for them... but what does THAT actually prove?

That there are still giant animals still in the ocean? So what. Plenty of people think that is possible. That, in my opinion, doesn't prove that dinosaurs walking around on the land still existed during biblical times.

The Bloop was obviously Cthulhu though

As I said before I think it was most likely exaggeration or imagination. It could have actually been that this description of leviathon and behemoth were added later as a way to instill awe or fear into the masses. (Im obviously talking about the dinosaurs and not the Bloop)

That bloop has a good chance of being a underwater volcano. But as geo said, its hard to pinpoint if its a creature because many things can make a sound like that underwater.

Better evidence is having an actual camera going down there and scanning the sea creatures cause who really knows what made that sound

Well you know, we actually know more about space than we do about our own oceans. But I highly doubt that things like leiopluradon (sp?) still exist. Megalodon, maybe... but that was much later.

The reason than mamals survived the ice age was because they were warm blooded. The dinosaurs died out because, quite frankly, they were just too damn big. Climate changes altered landscapes, changed food supplies, and then the larger beasts lost their support. It will happen to us one day.

Honestly, I think the Walking With Dinosaurs series did a good job of talking about the dinosaur extinction.

Originally posted by Crawldragon

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Originally posted by geeogree

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As for dating any of this.... if you want to be literal you can assume that 7 days of creation according to God is somehow 7 24 hours periods according to our telling of time which I think is ridiculous.

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Actually what I was referring to was the dating method they would use to determine the age of the fossils, in response to the problem addressed that no human skeleton has been dated as old as a dinosaur. Radiometric dating, for example.

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don't forget carbon dating, that has been used by scientists as well to determine the age of rocks and fossils alike, I may not be Christian now, but I was raised christian, I simply decided to choose my own path in life, and as the bible said, not sure where it says it, but I do know its there, anyways, the bible did mention god gave man the gift of free choice, that one gift that even he nor his angels have the luxury of having. Anyways, I have heard that there had been dragon fossils found and they were a completely order of reptiles all together, ones that were around during the time of the dinosaurs, and were able to adapt to the change in climate and food supplies and the lower oxigen atmosphere that came about when the meteor hit the earth, which killed off the dinosaurs.

And these dragons probably looked much like the ones depicted in both old and newer paintings, and like many creatures came in different sizes and appearances, the western dragon was often depicted as having two legs, and two wings. These were typically non firebreathers, and ate of all things, leaves, berrys and bark off of trees, infact they, like beavers would some times gnaw down a tree to bring home to its whyre, the way to tell is the hight in which the tree was chewed down, as no beaver could have reached that high up, then there is the european dragon, these were the fire breathers of lore, the males were winged, but the wings were too small for flight, they were more for displaying and attracting mates. The females just had arms, I am not sure if eastern dragon fossils had been found or not, but this is what I had heard, and it is entirely possible, Bahemuth could have been a european dragon, as their range included europ, parts of Africa, and the middle east, As for Leviathen, it is entirely possible that there could still be plesiosaurs living to this day, think of all the sightings of nessy? also, things that swam or flew such as the plesiosaur, the icthyosaur and pteradactil were not dinosaurs, they were just flying and swimming reptiles, the Archiopteryx is a dinosaur as it is closely related to the raptors, and like the raptors one that was an early ancestor of mondern birds, as both had wings and feathers, where as the pteradactyls did not, they had membrainous wings, which no winged dinosaurs had.

Also, a lot of the stories in the bible were origionally told orally, which over time tends to morph into something slightly different, much like a game of broken telephone, what starts out as Jenny Likes Cory, eventually will end up as Johnny likes George, it wasn't till many many years that someone realized that they really ought to write these stories down. back then the bible was known as the Torah, and it had all the books in the old testiment, then after Jesus had died and risen, some of his apostles had started writing about his life. There has also been revisions of the bible which has a few stuff that the older ones did not, and the last seven pages were removed all together, I have an older saint james edition of the bible, which is one that was in my family for quite some time, and its got the 7 last pages intact.

Don't get me wrong, I am simply adding my opinions to the other opinions here, not trying to change anyones views or anything, thats all up to the reader to choose to agree or not .

I'm going to put a cork in the "humans living with dinos" thing. Quite frankly, it would have been impossible. First, dinosuars existed hundreds of millions of years ago when, and Kathera briefly mentioned it, the Earth had a very Oxygen-rich atmosphere. When a biological orgism is living in such conditions its functions are able to perform greatly. As such, dinosuars grew to such massive size because they were able to, and only because they were able to. I haven't looked into how and when the oxygen levels decreased, maybe from a meteor impact as Kathera also mentioned, but after the dinosaurs did die out nothing was able to grow to such massive sizes ever again, save for maybe water-dwelling creatures, but I only say that because I really don't what the oxygen levels in the water was back then.
Second, the oldest humanoid fossile found, which only months ago was discovered, is only almost a million years old- a few hundred million years after the dinosuars became extinct. Even if humans and some dinos were were together could you imagine what it would be like? If you're reading this downtown somewhere look out a window. See any office buildings? Many species of dinos were bigger than that. There would be many problems with people settling down when giants beasts were roaming everywhere, crushing anything they stepped on. Humans wouldn't have been able to create homes to live or store food in, making them constant nomads. Then there are the smaller dinos. While some where plant-eaters, others were not. If a small carnivourous dinosaur were to encounter a human what do you think would happen?
Now back then, with the oxygen levels so high, if humans were around then they too would have been fairly large in size. But, the bible doesn't say anything about that. You can conclude that humans and dinos weren't around together.

The fact that a water dinosaur is living seems improbable, too. The whole "Nessie" thing is fake. I can tell you that. It is just a story made up, much like Bigfoot. I makes me wonder how many generations of the Plesiosaur, or even a variation, it would have taken for one to still be living. Only ONE specie dinsosaur surviving millions and millions of years and not evolving in some way making it look different? Why not any other species? I'm sure they would have needed large amounts of food to survive with how massive in size they are. Multiple "Nessies" would have been required to exist up to a number of decades ago to ensure that just one of them survived to the present. As such, would that lake have had enough smaller creatures for food for ALL of whatever required number of "Nessies" to live throughout the eons? There are too many questions that break the foundation of the Loch Ness myth and not enough good evidence.

I don't what "dragons" the bible was referring to, but my guess is that they large animals that existed back then but have since become extinct during man's time on this planet. In those days people didn't exactly have science. They relied on stories and decriptions, often exaggerated, told by others. And as mentioned in another post, explanations change from one person to the other. So something that was out of the ordinary or strange and seen by a guy was described to another. His description to another may have changed, and so forth. A good example of this is the popular "David and Goliath" story. Did you know a long, long time ago the average height for a human wasn't the same as itis today? People were shorter back then. Maybe no taller than just under 6 feet. Goliath was an exception. He was really big for the era he lived in. Maybe as tall as 6'5. Stories passed down about the fight made him seem monstrous in size. So it is likely "dragons" were exaggerated as well.

Dinosaurs weren't alive 10,000 years ago.

Where are you getting all these dates? From flawed dating methods. Seriously, the dating methods used nowadays are way off. Carbon dating is inaccurate, so that just made the first part of your post pointless.

Next, what do you mean these people didn't have science? Hello, great pyramid, if you read up on it, you'll find that it took a great deal of mathematics and science and, basically, the guy who built it had to be a genius. So telling us that men during Bible times couldn't measure something is preposterous. In fact, Adam was the smartest man to ever live, and human intellect has actually been decreasing since the Fall. Before sin entered the world, Adam could use every single part of his brain. He was as smart as a human could possibly be. Now, brain usage has decreased through the years, and we presently use only 10%!

Finally, of course you would find inconsistencies. You're trying to take man's flawed science and fit the Bible to it. What you have to do is look at it the other way around: Take what the Bible says, and make man's ideas fit it.

I will say one more thing. Just because they aren't where we are, doesn't mean dinosaurs don't still exist. There are numerous places on this earth which haven't been explored yet, and there may very well be dinosaurs living there. If not, oh well, but it's possible. As for Nessie, well, I'm not sure what to believe about her, but it's possible...

I hate when I see posts like yours bignate....

carbon dating is NOT used to date fossils. Something with a much higher half-life like uranium or something like that is used. [edit] Let me clarify.... anything as old as dinosaur fossils would not have Carbon-14 used to date them.

The idea that we only use 10% of our brain is also false. That is so old and untrue it's sad that people still say it's true.

So, you want science to fit the Bible? Sure, science isn't perfect, but it's closer to being "right" than it ever has in a LOT of ways.

And the Bible is not perfect. The idea that it is exactly the way it was written down originally is simply wrong. Translations themselves are variable. You could have 2 different people translate a document and get a different result. Not only that but there are now verified instances of things being left out of the Bible because they didn't fit what the Christians at the time believed. There are dozens of books that were once considered to be canonical but no longer are. Sorry. You can't use the Bible as the be all and end all. It's no more perfect or flawed than science is. It's been in the hands of humans for 2000 years. Nothing remains perfect for 2000 years.

Alright, sorry I used flawed scientific evidence and whatnot, but I am not going to stand down. Seriously, if you claim to be a Christian, then you have to believe the Bible is true and that it is what God intended for us to hear. If you don't trust it, then what can you trust? And I'd like to see some of these "verified instances" of parts being left out. I won't believe a word of it until I have proof that God wanted those in the Bible. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me.

I'm not saying I don't believe the Bible.... I'm just saying I don't think it's perfect nor do I believe that it should supercede science.


Do you even know how the Bible was compiled? Do you know what the apocrypha is? How about you spend some time researching HOW the Bible actually became what it is today.

Originally posted by bignatealpha

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Seriously, if you claim to be a Christian, then you have to believe the Bible is true and that it is what God intended for us to hear. If you don't trust it, then what can you trust?

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Science

Originally posted by bignatealpha

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And I'd like to see some of these "verified instances" of parts being left out. I won't believe a word of it until I have proof that God wanted those in the Bible.

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Let me ask you this- did God translate the bible or did man? The Bible was written by imperfect beings. That makes some of what is in it imperfect. It's very likely certain events actually left out. Or even not completely true. I've heard of this mentioned once a long time ago but I never learned anything past that, so I have no idea what was kept secret.

I have never believed the Bible to be perfect. The idea is preposterous.

Like Cyro said.... imperfect beings wrote down and translated the words. Therefore the book is imperfect.

the only thing that is perfect is God. Everything in our world is imperfect. Humans, books, religion. If the Bible were "perfect" then we wouldn't have the multitude of sects of Christianity that interpret things differently.

Don't take this to mean I don't believe the main tenant of the Bible to be false (life and sacrifice of Jesus) but I don't believe the book is without fault or error. I worship Jesus, a perfect being, not the bible, an imperfect book.

Guh. I really should have replied sooner. I fail. >.<

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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I'm going to put a cork in the "humans living with dinos" thing. Quite frankly, it would have been impossible. First, dinosuars existed hundreds of millions of years ago when, and Kathera briefly mentioned it, the Earth had a very Oxygen-rich atmosphere.

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I don't think you quite grasp how significant this is, nor why I started the topic. If the Bible is actually referring to dinosaurs, then it proves once and for all that dinosaurs could have walked alongside humans. We know they didn't dig up fossils or their quite recent discovery wouldn't have been anything significant. I know you have an answer to my question "where did the legends of dragons come from," so instead of asking that I'll just continue...

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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When a biological orgism is living in such conditions its functions are able to perform greatly. As such, dinosuars grew to such massive size because they were able to, and only because they were able to. I haven't looked into how and when the oxygen levels decreased, maybe from a meteor impact as Kathera also mentioned, but after the dinosaurs did die out nothing was able to grow to such massive sizes ever again, save for maybe water-dwelling creatures, but I only say that because I really don't what the oxygen levels in the water was back then.

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Actually Christian creationists do have a theory based on Biblical work. Forgive me if it sounds ridiculous, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction but it's just an idea:

In Genesis, the first chapter of the Bible in fact, God made a "firmament in the midst of the waters, to divide the waters from the waters." There was water above the "firmament" (which was called "heaven," what we now call the "sky." And before someone says anything, "heaven" has multiple meanings.) and below the firmament. What this basically means is that earth was surrounded by a "shell" of water. During Noah's flood, which covered the whole planet, it is mentioned that God "opened the gates (or windows) of heaven." This lead to the shell of water around the earth falling down to earth in the form of rain.

Now, this shell of water was forming a greenhouse effect, resulting in a lush environment with lots of plants, which is where the creatures' increased oxygen intake could have been possible. When the greenhouse was no longer there, the plants were no longer able to come back in their previous numbers. This meant Earth had less oxygen and thus could not support the previously massive life forms, so the dinosaurs died off.

Again, sorry if it sounds ridiculous, but that's the theory, and it's based on a combo of the Bible and scientific speculation, so that's the best we as Christians can expect.

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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Second, the oldest humanoid fossile found, which only months ago was discovered, is only almost a million years old- a few hundred million years after the dinosuars became extinct.

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Usually when a claim like that is made it turns out to be false. One notable fossil turned out to be an old man with arthritis from the '70s, and Lucy was nothing more than a chimpanzee. I'm reminded of paranormal investigators looking at the "Starchild skull" and thinking "that can only belong to an alien," when in fact it could obviously be simply a deformed human. This is basically the same situation, except people are claiming the fossils came from millions of years ago instead of space. People have to accept that there are multiple explanations for everything.

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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Even if humans and some dinos were were together could you imagine what it would be like? If you're reading this downtown somewhere look out a window. See any office buildings? Many species of dinos were bigger than that. There would be many problems with people settling down when giants beasts were roaming everywhere, crushing anything they stepped on. Humans wouldn't have been able to create homes to live or store food in, making them constant nomads. Then there are the smaller dinos. While some where plant-eaters, others were not. If a small carnivourous dinosaur were to encounter a human what do you think would happen?

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I think you underestimate how good humans are at adapting. I don't know where you live, but I'm assuming it's nowhere near the Izu islands, where people actually live despite it giving off more than enough toxic gas to instantly kill you. Humans have lived in the most dangerous environments on Earth, including hippo territory, dangerous jungles full of tarantulas bigger than your head, and deserts so devoid of water there aren't enough bacteria to decompose a dead body. I'm pretty sure we can handle a couple of slow-moving gentle giants (and despite what Jurassic Park would have you believe, there is no evidence that T. Rex and other large predators were actually fast runners or, in fact, even hunters.)

EDIT: Actually, there wouldn't be anything wrong with being a nomad. People would certainly live healthier lives than we do now, sitting around talking about dinosaurs all day. Keep in mind that the Mongolian empire was founded by nomads.

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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Now back then, with the oxygen levels so high, if humans were around then they too would have been fairly large in size. But, the bible doesn't say anything about that. You can conclude that humans and dinos weren't around together.

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Just because creatures are *capable* of being big doesn't mean they necessarily *are.* God knows the advantages of being small and nimble versus large and bulky just as well as evolution does, otherwise we would have more capybaras and fewer mice.

Nevertheless, the Bible does in fact mention "giants in the earth."

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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The fact that a water dinosaur is living seems improbable, too. The whole "Nessie" thing is fake. I can tell you that. It is just a story made up, much like Bigfoot.

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Yes, Nessie is an admitted hoax, which is why I didn't bring her up in my post except to be satirical; but that doesn't mean that other creatures could not still exist.
(edited for grammar fail)

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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I makes me wonder how many generations of the Plesiosaur, or even a variation, it would have taken for one to still be living. Only ONE specie dinsosaur surviving millions and millions of years and not evolving in some way making it look different? Why not any other species?

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Maybe they didn't evolve at all? Again, I don't think you're quite grasping how significant the repercussions are of the Bible mentioning dinosaurs.

Actually, come to think of it it is entirely possible for the sea monsters to have evolved, but that wouldn't necessarily change the fact that they would be pleiosaurs, so I don't know what point you were trying to make.

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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I'm sure they would have needed large amounts of food to survive with how massive in size they are. Multiple "Nessies" would have been required to exist up to a number of decades ago to ensure that just one of them survived to the present. As such, would that lake have had enough smaller creatures for food for ALL of whatever required number of "Nessies" to live throughout the eons? There are too many questions that break the foundation of the Loch Ness myth and not enough good evidence.

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I notice that you're only debunking one sea monster story, which was admitted to be a hoax by its originator. Not willing to tackle the stories in which entire cruise ships saw a monster for hours at a time?

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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I don't what "dragons" the bible was referring to, but my guess is that they large animals that existed back then but have since become extinct during man's time on this planet.

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...like dinosaurs, for example?

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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In those days people didn't exactly have science. They relied on stories and decriptions, often exaggerated, told by others. And as mentioned in another post, explanations change from one person to the other. So something that was out of the ordinary or strange and seen by a guy was described to another. His description to another may have changed, and so forth. A good example of this is the popular "David and Goliath" story. Did you know a long, long time ago the average height for a human wasn't the same as itis today?

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Not that long ago, actually. I went to the house of an old war hero (I think civil war era) who was really short compared to people today. I believe medical science is what brought us to our current massive size (and, ironically, halted us at six feet)

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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People were shorter back then. Maybe no taller than just under 6 feet. Goliath was an exception. He was really big for the era he lived in. Maybe as tall as 6'5. Stories passed down about the fight made him seem monstrous in size. So it is likely "dragons" were exaggerated as well.

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Actually, the Bible describes him as six cubits and a span tall. I did the math, and a cubit is about a quarter to a fifth the size of a human being, making Goliath about a man and a half tall. That's like eight feet by today's standards. Don't tell me if you saw a dude that tall wielding a massive sword and shield you wouldn't be intimidated.

Originally posted by Cyro Xero

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Dinosaurs weren't alive 10,000 years ago.

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They could have been.

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And now for something completely different.

Originally posted by bignatealpha

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Alright, sorry I used flawed scientific evidence and whatnot, but I am not going to stand down. Seriously, if you claim to be a Christian, then you have to believe the Bible is true and that it is what God intended for us to hear. If you don't trust it, then what can you trust?

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Prayer. When a part of the Bible is shown to me to be inconsistent, the first thing I do is pray for wisdom and understanding. If you can't trust the book God had man write down to communicate to us, talk to God directly. Look at the passages and try to see them through the eyes of the people trying to disprove them. I've developed argument-killing answers to antitheists this way, moreso than so-called "professionals" who barely even read the parts of the Bible said antitheists point out.

Originally posted by bignatealpha

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And I'd like to see some of these "verified instances" of parts being left out. I won't believe a word of it until I have proof that God wanted those in the Bible. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me.

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The thing is, I'm pretty sure much of the Apocrypha was uncovered after the Bible was actually put together, like a lot of the 2012 prophecies being uncovered after the 2012 theories got started. The best we can do is maintain an open mind. Find a copy of the Apocrypha, read it yourself, and make your own judgment. Prove people wrong when they call you a blind sheep.

The thing is that what people say is true: there is no perfect translation of the Bible today, which is why we as Christians need more and more to get close to God in person. The thing is, many Christians don't do that, so new Christians don't feel compelled to, which is the opposite of what we need. Keep in mind that the prophets of the Bible would spend hours a day in prayer and they were capable of amazing things. Jesus pointed to a mountain and said to his disciples if they were faithful enough they could tell said mountain to jump into the sea and it would do so, and even today amazing things happen, like one preacher who spoke to the natives of a country he didn't know the language of, started speaking in tongues, and said natives could understand him perfectly even though he had no idea what he was saying. My point is that the Bible, while our most reliable written work of God, is nothing compared to a closeness to God himself, and there really is no substitute.

Well, I think I'm teetering on the edge of off-topic, so I'll just shut my mouth now. If you want to continue discussing it, nate, my PM box has plenty of room in it.

No, you have answered well. And I agree, if you feel, if anyone feels there's something wrong with what they're reading in the Bible, then they need to pray about it. That is also what you must do about the parts supposedly left out of the Bible. Prayer is the only way we're going to figure this out. If only more people would realize this...

And I will firmly state once again that I believe there were dinosaurs in the Bible. The Leviathan, the Behemoth... they're like nothing on the earth today. So what else is there? What giant lizards existed previously that are no longer here? Dinosaurs. But whatever, I'm not going to argue anymore, if you don't want to believe, then you don't have to.

thankfully this sort of debate isn't really essential.

The main reason why I haven't spent too much time dealing with this issue is because you can't prove it either way.

Both sides have strong arguments for their theories, but neither can totally prove the other one wrong. So in the end while it's interesting to have these debates it doesn't accomplish much.

I'd be interested if any non-christian source backs up what Crawl has said.

I agree with Geeogree. There really isn't proof for either argument. The bible doesn't say there was dinosaurs, it also doesn't say if there were not dinosaurs.