Originally posted by Elara

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Originally posted by John

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Originally posted by neojazex

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So if someone tried to kill you and the only way to stop them was to kill them you wouldn't?

Thats very dumb...

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Now i said murder. And what the definition of murder is, can yet be debated.

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No... it can't really be debated:

Murder
Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous b : something outrageous or blameworthy

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Holy crap elara, what is all of this for? neojazex kinda got me. Are you trying to be difficult?

isn't this topic about abortion and not murder?

But is abortion murder? And if so, under what presets?

Aboration may be wrong but that doesn't make it murder if the featus is less than 12 weeks old. Before that stage the baby is barley human or even alive. Now it may be wrong but to me before 12... but 8 would be better, before 8 weeks it isn't murder, technically. It sounds cold but think about it.
Elara said: Murder
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Well before 8 weeks how can it be considered unwillingly or unlawfully killing when the baby in question can not make any decision for its self.

Originally posted by IceWave04

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Well before 8 weeks how can it be considered unwillingly or unlawfully killing when the baby in question can not make any decision for its self.

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So just because it can't make decisions for itself means it's ok to kill it?
Well why not let someone knock you out and then while you are unconcious kill you? While you are knocked out you can't make decisions so seems fair enough by what you say.

And even at 8 weeks it is still a human being. You can tell it's a human being after a few days if the person really knows what to look for.

I would like to expand on that a little more. Such as people in comas, and the mentally handicapped(mostly severlly handicaped) They cannot make decisions for themselfs. That doesn't mean they can just be killed. The bottom line is you don't have to have sex. Be ready if your pregnant if you do.

I gave the definition of murder to show that it isn't really debatable. The key terms in the definition, though, are unlawfully and with malice.

1) Abortion is not unlawful, it is legal.

2) Most people that get abortions do it with no malice, but with regret... in fact, I've yet to hear of one woman getting an abortion for malicious reasons.

Oh, random fact: To get an abortion you must be at least 6 weeks along, otherwise the blastocyst is too small to remove. Most women who get abortions are between 6-8 weeks pregnant.

Originally posted by Elara

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I gave the definition of murder to show that it isn't really debatable. The key terms in the definition, though, are unlawfully and with malice.

1) Abortion is not unlawful, it is legal.

2) Most people that get abortions do it with no malice, but with regret... in fact, I've yet to hear of one woman getting an abortion for malicious reasons.

Oh, random fact: To get an abortion you must be at least 6 weeks along, otherwise the blastocyst is too small to remove. Most women who get abortions are between 6-8 weeks pregnant.

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BEEP BEEP BuZZER sound [http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_19.asp I knew it sounded Fishy but I had to check to make sure. In one way or another you can Abort your baby from pretty much the DAY AFTER you concieved it.

I had better write somthing else thought becuase I don't want to be one of those "YoUR WRONG STUPID" posters that just tell others they are wrong.

OK there are three issues that should be answered when you look at abortion:

Is the baby an actual human life?

Should we grant equal protection by law to all living humans in our nation?

The third question is about Choice and Women’s Rights.


I could go at this from this viewpoint. Pagans think that everything living has a spirit. Trees, cats, weeds, ETC. Now obviously the baby would also have a human spirit. Pagans don't think we should kill living things. And they think the human race isn't better than any other creature to pass judgment onto it. So how can a Pagan justify taking a babies life? Of course there are many different pagans (i'm not ignant) But I'm just taking ELARA's point of view. (correct me if I'm wrong) cringes for the stinging slap he is about to recieve

*giggles*
If that is true, then bravo zylo you have found a wonderful hole in the armor of elara.

But should abortion be reallly legal? I believe it should only be used in the case of.....
1. Rape
2. Incest
3. Rare cases in which the mother would die

Otherwise, you don't need to be having sex without taking the risks into hand. Be responsible. Be a frickin adult for crying out loud. Think about the future, not just yourself. You shouldn't be allowed to end potential life cuz you f***ed up. You can always put it up for adoption. There are other options.

Originally posted by John

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But should abortion be reallly legal? I believe it should only be used in the case of.....
1. Rape
2. Incest
3. Rare cases in which the mother would die

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I agree with these terms as well. There should be certain allowences for abortion and these are it.

what if the child had a horrible disease inherited from the mother. AIDS comes to mind... no-one wants a child, or to be born with AIDS

*Prepares to be attacked for what she is about to say*

The day after, huh? Well, with the morning after pill or the abortion pill (forget the name) you can yes, but for the actual abortion process it has to be big enough for the vacuum to get it, so at least 6 weeks along... at least that is what I was told when I had one 3 years ago.

That's right, you heard me, I had one. I'm not proud of it, and I'm not telling you any details as to why I did it. Go ahead, condem me all you want, I don't f***ing care. It was, to date, the hardest decision that I have ever made and I don't need people talking s*** to me for it!

As to the spirit thing, you also have to remember that the point at which an embryo becomes a living individual as opposed to part of a woman's body is still hotly debated. I personally don't think it is an individual until it can survive on it's own (about 5-6 months). Also, like many Pagans, I believe in reincarnation. So, if the spirit was in the baby at the time of the abortion, the spirit is not dead, it just comes into the world through another body.

Remember, I may be a Wiccan, but I am also a very scientific person.

I think killing a child is wrong, no matter when the time frame is.

Once the child is concieved it is on it's way to become a child and an abortion prevents that.

But I also dont' see a point in trying to restrict it in a society like we have today. In my opinion if we want to stop abortions, why not restrict pre-marital sex while we're at it. Then we could probably wipe out STD's in the process.

I'm just saying, it doesn't make any sense to try and stop something that can be done in so many ways. I would like to see it stopped, but I know that it has helped people like Elara out of a situation that is only going to make life worse for a lot of people before it makes it better. Is that selfish? I guess so, but I would rather see more people making good choices for themselves, than making bad choices for their children.

*shocked*
Why would you think people would attack you on that? Its obviously not a decision anybody wants to make. Its not like i (and i hope nobody else) is going to hate you as a person for it, for it is already done. And who am i to judge a persons life after not being able to be them (and also not being able to be jesus). But what i'm getting at is the whole deal that is leading up to that situation. And how you should never get into that situation yourself. It may mean you don't get to go hog wild, but you should be responsible. We as humans don't have to have sex. Its something some of us want.

Originally posted by John

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But should abortion be reallly legal? I believe it should only be used in the case of.....
1. Rape
2. Incest
3. Rare cases in which the mother would die

Otherwise, you don't need to be having sex without taking the risks into hand. Be responsible. Be a frickin adult for crying out loud. Think about the future, not just yourself. You shouldn't be allowed to end potential life cuz you f***ed up. You can always put it up for adoption. There are other options.

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Ahhh sigh, When a women is raped, then she is the victim of a horrible atrocity. But that doesn't give her the right or reason to turn around and commit murder, I oppose killing an innocent baby for the crime of his father.

I am sorry Elara.

First off, if anyone does come in here and attacks Elara, you will be warned (maybe even twice since I am saying that.) And that goes for attacking anyone else as well. If you attack someone you will be warned (unless you have the best reason I have ever heard, and I've heard some pretty good ones.)

John you are right here the thing leading up to the situation is a big part of the problem. However try to remember when saying something like that, "less is more." The more you say the more a person has the chance to disagree with or catch something wrong with what you said.

Zylo that is a point I ragree with, but what they are going to say is that the woman shouldn't have to go through all the labor and morning sickness and everything else because she was raped, and when you look at it like that it is difficult to decide which is right.

Thank you Michael... and you too John.

I figured that you all would pounce on me because of it, judging by what you were saying; and I honestly don't think I'd be able to handle that. More than once I wished that I didn't do it, but the past cannot be changed, at it was for the best in the long run.

I just feel lucky that I had the option open to me when that happened... I was terrified of what would happen. If there had been no clinic I might have tried to do it myself, or more likely I would have committed suicide, either way it was bad. Yes, it is a selfish thing to do, and looking back I shouldn't have been dumb enough to get into that situation in the first place; but teenagers make dumb mistakes and nothing will ever change that.

I agree with what geeogree said, in todays society there is no way you really can stop it. Before it was legal, girls found ways to abort their pregnancies (usually highly dangerous ways), and if it is ever banned they will do it again. It just makes more sense to have clinics with trained doctors and sterile equipment do it than to have poor Jane attempt to do it herself with either a coat hanger or having some thug beat the crap out of her in a back ally to cause a miscarriage.

i'm in favor of abortion as long as there's something wrong about how the pregnancy happened. if a woman gets pregnant because she was messing around with her partner, abortion is bad. if she was raped, let her get rid of the fetus. who would want her child to represent a crime and a terrible memory?

>>>>>>>07-29-05 12:17 AM<<<<<<<
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Ziggy, please watch out for bumping old threads. Like this one. Look at the date of the last post before you.

Well, it's a controversial issue, but I can't say that I ever want anyone to take away that option. I personally could never abort a child, but I think we should have that liberty to do so. What the hell happened to this so called "free" country, anyway? Everyday, more and more of our rights and our choices are taken from us, and sadly, all we do is rant about it in a forum like this. Anyway, I've never told anyone who has asked to go and abort and I do not approve of it in the least, but they better leave well enough alone. It's our right to decide, not somebody else's.