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05-22-14 09:48 AM
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Chivalry

 

05-22-14 09:48 AM
Zlinqx is Offline
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So I'm assuming that almost everybody here wants equality for both genders. My question to you is if? Chivalry can co exist with equality. And to clarify I mean chivalry in the form of a guy being expected to pay for a date for example.

IMO no it cannot. Of course a guy can pay for a date if he wants to but it's not something he should be expected to do in the same way a woman could pay for a date if she wanted to. If a guy is still to be expected to pay for the date that's just hypocracy in my book from certain feminists saying they want equality. The truth is though this is still (for the most part) expected from guys.

I'm interested on hearing what people of both genders have to say about this so please share your opinion with me.
So I'm assuming that almost everybody here wants equality for both genders. My question to you is if? Chivalry can co exist with equality. And to clarify I mean chivalry in the form of a guy being expected to pay for a date for example.

IMO no it cannot. Of course a guy can pay for a date if he wants to but it's not something he should be expected to do in the same way a woman could pay for a date if she wanted to. If a guy is still to be expected to pay for the date that's just hypocracy in my book from certain feminists saying they want equality. The truth is though this is still (for the most part) expected from guys.

I'm interested on hearing what people of both genders have to say about this so please share your opinion with me.
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(edited by Zlinqx on 08-03-14 10:45 AM)    

05-22-14 12:43 PM
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Zlinqx:



It depends on the definition of "equality". If by "equality", you mean "exactly the same" such that both men and women should be equally men, then chivalry cannot exist. If by "equality" you mean "neither is greater than the other", chivalry can exist. If I pay for a date, it's an expression of respect that's common in my culture. It's not because I am unequal or she is unequal; it's because I respect the woman as a woman.. I am recognizing she is both different and equal. Male and female are not the same, but we are equals.
Zlinqx:



It depends on the definition of "equality". If by "equality", you mean "exactly the same" such that both men and women should be equally men, then chivalry cannot exist. If by "equality" you mean "neither is greater than the other", chivalry can exist. If I pay for a date, it's an expression of respect that's common in my culture. It's not because I am unequal or she is unequal; it's because I respect the woman as a woman.. I am recognizing she is both different and equal. Male and female are not the same, but we are equals.
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(edited by Txgangsta on 05-22-14 12:55 PM)     Post Rating: 1   Liked By: RurouniLink,

05-25-14 12:51 PM
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Throw "chivalry" in the trash, please. Along with any of your half-assed knowledge of feminism.

Using Zlinqx's "example", men should pay.. It's a no-brainer.
Why
should men pay? Because they can afford to, they benefit from a
male-biased society that makes a lower class for women, when there
shouldn't be a lower class for any gender full stop.

FYI
Feminism is about equality for both genders, and dealing with the current inequality against -you guessed it- women.
Please, before you insinuate feminists don't know what they're talking about, you should look in the mirror.

PS.
I'm not actually having a dig at anyone... no hard feelings.
Throw "chivalry" in the trash, please. Along with any of your half-assed knowledge of feminism.

Using Zlinqx's "example", men should pay.. It's a no-brainer.
Why
should men pay? Because they can afford to, they benefit from a
male-biased society that makes a lower class for women, when there
shouldn't be a lower class for any gender full stop.

FYI
Feminism is about equality for both genders, and dealing with the current inequality against -you guessed it- women.
Please, before you insinuate feminists don't know what they're talking about, you should look in the mirror.

PS.
I'm not actually having a dig at anyone... no hard feelings.
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05-25-14 02:41 PM
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On3On : I never said feminists don't want equality what I meant was that certain self proclaimed feminists seem to think that you should only focus on women's problems and pretty much ignore any problems men may have as if they don't exist at all. IMO in countries like the U.S or Canada for example feminism isn't really needed as it is generally agreed upon by the population that both genders should be equal (aside from some people but there's always gonna be a few people who don't agree).
On3On : I never said feminists don't want equality what I meant was that certain self proclaimed feminists seem to think that you should only focus on women's problems and pretty much ignore any problems men may have as if they don't exist at all. IMO in countries like the U.S or Canada for example feminism isn't really needed as it is generally agreed upon by the population that both genders should be equal (aside from some people but there's always gonna be a few people who don't agree).
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(edited by Zlinqx on 05-25-14 02:47 PM)    

05-25-14 03:54 PM
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Zlinqx : Relax... I didn't actually say you did. You don't have to pass the buck on these self-proclaimed feminists.
People put their spin on movements like feminism, occasionally adding things that confuse the matter.
And like...

"certain self proclaimed feminists seem to think that you should only focus on women's problems and pretty much ignore any problems men may have as if they don't exist at all"

How on earth would that ever happen anyway? What does that have to do with the sexism against women?
It's exactly what I meant by confusing.

And really, to be honest, you can't speak for entire countries... I doubt you've lived in the US or Canada long enough as a woman to speak from experience, lol.
Zlinqx : Relax... I didn't actually say you did. You don't have to pass the buck on these self-proclaimed feminists.
People put their spin on movements like feminism, occasionally adding things that confuse the matter.
And like...

"certain self proclaimed feminists seem to think that you should only focus on women's problems and pretty much ignore any problems men may have as if they don't exist at all"

How on earth would that ever happen anyway? What does that have to do with the sexism against women?
It's exactly what I meant by confusing.

And really, to be honest, you can't speak for entire countries... I doubt you've lived in the US or Canada long enough as a woman to speak from experience, lol.
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05-25-14 07:31 PM
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On3On : Allow me to quote you, "Your half-assed knowledge of feminism."  Allow me to quote you again, "I'm not having a dig at anyone."

Somehow using the phrase half-assed as an adjective for anyone's attributes strikes me as taking a shot at them. 

Feminism is about the advancement of both genders.  The ideology should be equality between genders in the eyes of the law and culture.  Unfortunately, there are many so-called feminist groups that want to advance women at the expense of men.  Take Jezebel.com.  It is a webpage made that uses hate and anger to attack males and masculinity in general.  It does not promote equality of genders.  It promotes trying to put women ahead of men in all cases. They say, "Vote for these women for political office because they're women."  It has nothing to do with their previous success, their belief systems, or economic values or anything to do with their politics.  That particular website, one of many, promotes women because of their chromosomes.

That's not how feminism should work.  Feminism is an ideology of fairness, not us vs them.  Many so-called feminists are anti-male and push a different agenda.  It's too bad.

Saying that, chivalry is about gallantry and service to others.  Chivalry isn't paying for a date.  If you ask someone to go out, you should pay for them or a portion of their meal/activity/bar tab.  That's manners and etiquette, not chivalry.  Opening a door for a person because they're behind you is chivalry because it's service to others, but it should not matter the gender of that person.  You don't let a guy get his own door and hold open a door for a beautiful woman.  That makes you a (insert bad name here).

Chivalry is alive and well.  The idea of being courteous will never die.  Gender has no role in chivalry.
On3On : Allow me to quote you, "Your half-assed knowledge of feminism."  Allow me to quote you again, "I'm not having a dig at anyone."

Somehow using the phrase half-assed as an adjective for anyone's attributes strikes me as taking a shot at them. 

Feminism is about the advancement of both genders.  The ideology should be equality between genders in the eyes of the law and culture.  Unfortunately, there are many so-called feminist groups that want to advance women at the expense of men.  Take Jezebel.com.  It is a webpage made that uses hate and anger to attack males and masculinity in general.  It does not promote equality of genders.  It promotes trying to put women ahead of men in all cases. They say, "Vote for these women for political office because they're women."  It has nothing to do with their previous success, their belief systems, or economic values or anything to do with their politics.  That particular website, one of many, promotes women because of their chromosomes.

That's not how feminism should work.  Feminism is an ideology of fairness, not us vs them.  Many so-called feminists are anti-male and push a different agenda.  It's too bad.

Saying that, chivalry is about gallantry and service to others.  Chivalry isn't paying for a date.  If you ask someone to go out, you should pay for them or a portion of their meal/activity/bar tab.  That's manners and etiquette, not chivalry.  Opening a door for a person because they're behind you is chivalry because it's service to others, but it should not matter the gender of that person.  You don't let a guy get his own door and hold open a door for a beautiful woman.  That makes you a (insert bad name here).

Chivalry is alive and well.  The idea of being courteous will never die.  Gender has no role in chivalry.
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05-26-14 01:13 PM
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Not going to drag this out, it's off topic and pretty distracting.
warmaker : Intentionally missed the last bit, "not actually having a dig at anyone."
Those that feel fired at are those who don't like being scrutinized.

As for feminism.
If you understand the thing feminists are coming up against (from both sides, you could say), don't spread stuff like Jezebel-or whatever else Mens' Rights Activists pose as- around, especially in male circles. It's propaganda.
By giving attention to those random angry people on the Internet, you're undermining, dragging down a pretty simple movement that holds no venom.

Back on topic.
Chivalry is a word that comes with gross, unwritten connotations, something deeply rooted in laddish culture.
Not going to drag this out, it's off topic and pretty distracting.
warmaker : Intentionally missed the last bit, "not actually having a dig at anyone."
Those that feel fired at are those who don't like being scrutinized.

As for feminism.
If you understand the thing feminists are coming up against (from both sides, you could say), don't spread stuff like Jezebel-or whatever else Mens' Rights Activists pose as- around, especially in male circles. It's propaganda.
By giving attention to those random angry people on the Internet, you're undermining, dragging down a pretty simple movement that holds no venom.

Back on topic.
Chivalry is a word that comes with gross, unwritten connotations, something deeply rooted in laddish culture.
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(edited by On3On on 06-17-14 06:22 PM)    

06-25-14 05:52 PM
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On3On :  I'm not taking shots at anyone either.  No one likes being scrutinized.

Some people obviously have no idea that words can evolve and change meanings with culture and context.  Try googling any number of searches of "Words change over time."  A word can mean something for one era and something different for another.  

Awful is a perfect example.

So, we're arguing semantics and belief systems and nothing more.  No one wins this conversation.  I completely 100% agree with your beliefs with feminism.  It's a perfect ideology that preaches equality for genders without disenfranchising either.  That makes sense.  One gender doesn't have to win at the expense of the other losing.  I completely disagree with the word usage of chivalry.  It'll probably stay that way.

On3On :  I'm not taking shots at anyone either.  No one likes being scrutinized.

Some people obviously have no idea that words can evolve and change meanings with culture and context.  Try googling any number of searches of "Words change over time."  A word can mean something for one era and something different for another.  

Awful is a perfect example.

So, we're arguing semantics and belief systems and nothing more.  No one wins this conversation.  I completely 100% agree with your beliefs with feminism.  It's a perfect ideology that preaches equality for genders without disenfranchising either.  That makes sense.  One gender doesn't have to win at the expense of the other losing.  I completely disagree with the word usage of chivalry.  It'll probably stay that way.

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06-25-14 09:00 PM
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I think I'll step in and see if anyone likes my options  but all in all nothing is consider equal. If we look at yug and yang that is consider equal it has darkness that represents the bad and the white that represents the good but at the same time they both have a small difference of what they really are has a perfect equal. We can 100% say yug and yang are like a perfect male and a fashion girl they each has their own hidden difference. We also can say that no one is 100% a perfect male and a fashion girl each one of them has a way to mess up the image of what we believe is normal girl and boy. Lastly has human beings we are no different from wild animals, we will do everything in our power to live and become a leader in this small world.

If you don't like reading that long text I will put it in simple words here, the idea of anyone or anything becoming equal is never going to happen even when we do find equally many years after we die there will always be unequally.
I think I'll step in and see if anyone likes my options  but all in all nothing is consider equal. If we look at yug and yang that is consider equal it has darkness that represents the bad and the white that represents the good but at the same time they both have a small difference of what they really are has a perfect equal. We can 100% say yug and yang are like a perfect male and a fashion girl they each has their own hidden difference. We also can say that no one is 100% a perfect male and a fashion girl each one of them has a way to mess up the image of what we believe is normal girl and boy. Lastly has human beings we are no different from wild animals, we will do everything in our power to live and become a leader in this small world.

If you don't like reading that long text I will put it in simple words here, the idea of anyone or anything becoming equal is never going to happen even when we do find equally many years after we die there will always be unequally.
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warmaker : That's a lot to assume.
I know language has been deconstructed throughout history, that chivalry and other words are warped from the long cycle of reinforcing male-dominated culture of the most insecure, non self-sufficient kind.

It is one thing to treat women equal, another to be so dismissive to the disadvantage women so often have, so I disagreed with the juvenile views on real-world equality, passive mentions of false-feminism, but I've no disagreements with your own statements, we were not arguing at any point.

mastergame : Humans are not inherently power-driven, it's actually an culturally influenced notion that leaves some people quite unstable.
By the way, it's Yin-Yang.
warmaker : That's a lot to assume.
I know language has been deconstructed throughout history, that chivalry and other words are warped from the long cycle of reinforcing male-dominated culture of the most insecure, non self-sufficient kind.

It is one thing to treat women equal, another to be so dismissive to the disadvantage women so often have, so I disagreed with the juvenile views on real-world equality, passive mentions of false-feminism, but I've no disagreements with your own statements, we were not arguing at any point.

mastergame : Humans are not inherently power-driven, it's actually an culturally influenced notion that leaves some people quite unstable.
By the way, it's Yin-Yang.
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Equality never existed, now women have a secret power called child support. If we really wanted equality then women wouldn't have all these advantages. I'm not being sexist or a womanizer, I mean I'm 99.9% sure all humans came from one, including me. But I don't see my mom taking 50% of my dad's pay check and giving him no visitation rights just because they divorced!
Equality never existed, now women have a secret power called child support. If we really wanted equality then women wouldn't have all these advantages. I'm not being sexist or a womanizer, I mean I'm 99.9% sure all humans came from one, including me. But I don't see my mom taking 50% of my dad's pay check and giving him no visitation rights just because they divorced!
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Chivalry is a hard quality to find in a guy, but I think it is still out there. However, yeah, there should be equality in both genders for chivalry. Men should not be expected to do everything for a woman. Women should have to do some things too, such as pay for a meal sometimes. If a woman asks to go out to dinner, but expects the guy to pay, that is just wrong. 
Chivalry is a hard quality to find in a guy, but I think it is still out there. However, yeah, there should be equality in both genders for chivalry. Men should not be expected to do everything for a woman. Women should have to do some things too, such as pay for a meal sometimes. If a woman asks to go out to dinner, but expects the guy to pay, that is just wrong. 
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08-03-14 02:46 AM
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Stereotypes are a killer. That's the gender issue. You can either be a Feminist or a Stepford Wife. Each is basically cornered into believing and being shown to believe one thing or another. The chivalry thing is a stereotype set by Stepford Wives that men should be chivalrous. 

In my mind, equality would either be no stereotype whatsoever or everyone is allowed to stereotype everyone to their hearts content without persecution from one side or another. I prefer the latter. Stereotypes were ingrained into us for evolutionary and survival purposes anyway.
Stereotypes are a killer. That's the gender issue. You can either be a Feminist or a Stepford Wife. Each is basically cornered into believing and being shown to believe one thing or another. The chivalry thing is a stereotype set by Stepford Wives that men should be chivalrous. 

In my mind, equality would either be no stereotype whatsoever or everyone is allowed to stereotype everyone to their hearts content without persecution from one side or another. I prefer the latter. Stereotypes were ingrained into us for evolutionary and survival purposes anyway.
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I don't see Chivalry being a thing anymore especially if women, who mainly wanted chivalry, want to be treated as equal - not to say that you should hit anyone at random, but if it's in self-defense then a woman shouldn't play the "I'm a girl, you shouldn't hit girls, card"; You want to be treated the same as us men then don't moan about getting hurt when we're doing it in self-defense.

But that's a rant for another time, and I might not of been on-topic o.o
I don't see Chivalry being a thing anymore especially if women, who mainly wanted chivalry, want to be treated as equal - not to say that you should hit anyone at random, but if it's in self-defense then a woman shouldn't play the "I'm a girl, you shouldn't hit girls, card"; You want to be treated the same as us men then don't moan about getting hurt when we're doing it in self-defense.

But that's a rant for another time, and I might not of been on-topic o.o
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I personally view it as a privilege, to be chivalrous, or nice to a girl. I being a man, am delighted in the act of being helpful to those of the other gender. I always try to open doors for girls, I stand up when greeting a girl etc. I view them as the honored person, as I believe it should be. I don't know how you guys feel, but I LOVE doing it.
I personally view it as a privilege, to be chivalrous, or nice to a girl. I being a man, am delighted in the act of being helpful to those of the other gender. I always try to open doors for girls, I stand up when greeting a girl etc. I view them as the honored person, as I believe it should be. I don't know how you guys feel, but I LOVE doing it.
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i am only chivalrous to girls that i have feelings, friendship, or that i am attracted to other then that i treat them very equally to how i would treat a man it sounds rude but if they want equal rights they get and those i treat with chivalry thats my right to choose regardless if there selfish or not
i am only chivalrous to girls that i have feelings, friendship, or that i am attracted to other then that i treat them very equally to how i would treat a man it sounds rude but if they want equal rights they get and those i treat with chivalry thats my right to choose regardless if there selfish or not
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It's kinda been said in a couple other post
but here you go
Equality does not equal same necessarily
Chivalry is fine for equality
What is important is that there is an equal give and take
The issue gets so muddled up, but that's what really matters
Men are expected to pay in dates, and women are expected to put a lot more work into looks than men are
Men spend the money on diner, women spend it on makeup and such
Now I'm not saying that's the ideal set-up by any means, nor is it the way it always is
but that's the common expectation
and it is equal

Of course, not all guys expect girls to put in all that effort
but then again
not all girls expect the guy to pay
It's kinda been said in a couple other post
but here you go
Equality does not equal same necessarily
Chivalry is fine for equality
What is important is that there is an equal give and take
The issue gets so muddled up, but that's what really matters
Men are expected to pay in dates, and women are expected to put a lot more work into looks than men are
Men spend the money on diner, women spend it on makeup and such
Now I'm not saying that's the ideal set-up by any means, nor is it the way it always is
but that's the common expectation
and it is equal

Of course, not all guys expect girls to put in all that effort
but then again
not all girls expect the guy to pay
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09-04-14 08:57 AM
Thebiguglyalien is Offline
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I believe everyone should respect one another regardless of gender. Guys should respect girls, and girls should respect guys. If that could happen, chivalry would be entirely unnecessary.
I believe everyone should respect one another regardless of gender. Guys should respect girls, and girls should respect guys. If that could happen, chivalry would be entirely unnecessary.
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Registered: 01-23-14
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