mrfe :  I'm going to throw the flag on one of your points.  I've been in the trenches, married 7 years, with a young daughter, and the ideas seem great but they don't always work.

A: You absolutely can and should expect your spouse to make sacrifices for your own enjoyment.  If I really want to do activity 1 and my wife isn't interested but I want her to come, she should join me because it makes me happy.  This is the flip side of your second point.  Why should I never ask for anything but go out of my way for her?  Also, I should be able to ask my wife to run a beer over to me when I'm doing something.  She's being nice.  I would do the same.  It's a two way street and both people need to go out of their way to do things for the other, as frivolous as it may be.  Males especially try to do this self-sacrifice thing and always appeal to girls.  

Try this, guys:  Say, "No," stand your ground, do your own thing and see what happens.  Once I stopped rolling over for everything my wife wanted, she started respecting me more.  It was interesting.  I cut down on saying, "I love you," and it started meaning more because I said it less.  It stopped being an automatic response.  

You're right, Mrfe, that it is a great thing if done well.  It's tough and there are no guidelines.  Everyone's journey is different and no two relationships are the same.  

Sword legion :
You might want to look into that, Christianity (or even abrahamic faiths) did not invent marriage, they added ideas that werent there before, but they built on existing foundations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#History_of_marriage

Marriage is just another choice, much like life, you are free to make of it, what you please. I personally dont think it changes anything other than stating your commitment to the rest of the world, but much like Facebook in that regards, id say who cares what the rest of the world thinks? Its a private matter and none of their business. I just see it as a means of tax breaks (although id say im opposed to you doing it for that reason, you're free to do so, but it will end badly). If you think someone else s marriage devalues yours, evidently you did it to convey a message to everyone else, and you got married for entirely the wrong reason.

warmaker : I should have clarified more on that point. By saying that you shouldn't be 'expecting your partner to sacrifice their own enjoyment for you', I meant that you shouldn't be counting on it as a given. Like, keep in mind that your spouse is their own person. They aren't around to do whatever you're asking, and you're not around to do whatever they're asking. Be helpful when you can, and it's ok to ask for some in return. Just don't hang out on the couch all day while asking for stuff.

Again, I didn't mean to say that you should just do whatever she asks. It's great to be helpful, but that's not always the best option. I was attempting to show the contrast between laziness, and helpfulness. It's good to be able to ask for your spouse to get you a beer, but if you've been laying on the couch watching TV while she does the dishes, you might consider getting it yourself. In my experience with siblings, asking for stuff while being lazy really doesn't end well.

As for the cutting down on saying 'I love you', it's quite possibly a good step. However, if you're not saying it at least somewhat often, it's possible to lose sight of that. I feel like it's not the amount of times you say it, but that you say it with honesty and genuine love. It's better to say 'I love you' only a couple times a week, but really mean it, than to say it every time you see your spouse and it just becoming a phrase.

I have more to say on the topic of marriage, but that will have to come later.

thenumberone :


I know that marriage goes even further back than Judaisism. What I mean to say is that God invented marriage and gave it to us. Even this article brings up the customs of the middle east first.


I think that God created marriage and gave it to us for this reason: (see below)

Elara :

I would like to show you this as well actually, if you don't mind.



Let us suppose some humans have crash landed on an island and there are eaqual boys, and eaqual girls. 6 men, and 6 women.


They have all lost their memory of civilization in the modern world and will have to start from scratch. In fact, they do not even remember each other on the plane.


So they work together.


They make huts and such.

They farm the more enjoyable plants to eat.

Even fish become a nice food to eat.



But there is a bit of a problem.



The stronger of the boys would take multiple women for them selves, and if a girl should get pregnant, her man would leave her for a more attractive mate. Some of the weaker boys don't even get to have any girls really. The strongest would be at the top, doing as they pleased regarding women, not abusing them mind you, but, if they got pregnant, or they liked someone else more.

bam!

They're outta here.


Now, lets say one of the girls, who's name is Jane goes up to John, the strongest of the males.
And she says "Hey John, let's have a little chat"


John : Alright Jane, what do you want to talk about?

*John looks out over the ocean from which the waves lazily roll onto the shore.*


Jane: I want to tell you about something called marriage.


John : Marriage? What's that!?

Jane: It's where you decided to stay with me, and only me John. No more going off with other, younger women when I look less attractive, or I get pregnant. And no more- John? John! Where are you going?! Come back John!

You see, we couldn't invent marriage on our own, because John would never stick around long enough to find out what marriage is!

Even the people posting here see no point in marriage, it's just something that makes legalities more complicated, with a few benefits if you can come out on top.


Marriage, is to much of a commitment. Although some people are afraid that it won't work out down the road, hence they won't make it official. My only complaint about that is perhaps they are missing out on a real relationship because they are not totally committed to each other.


And, I'm not worried about marriage as a legal term so much as I as worried about it as a promise to stay with someone for the rest of your life. I like the idea of having to stay with someone for the rest of your life because this makes you choose carefully, and not just go after someone cause they look pretty. Perhaps if this were the case there would not be so many lonesome children suffering from a parents divorce. :/


And no, I won't get married for tax breaks. There are spiritual things involved for one, but the real reason that I will get married will be because I love someone. Someone who likes the same things, has the same morals, has similar goals, has the opposite personality. And that's the base of what we're supposed to look for.

Sword legion : Penguins have only one mate their entire lives once they start breeding.  Humans try to do it and we wander off and find others because we're social.  Marriage doesn't work all the time.

And there are those who aren't Christian who do better at marriage than some who are Christian.  

Did God give animals the idea too?  Why do some animals find one partner for life and keep it that way?  Humans can't always do it.

No one will agree on this point.  You can have your beliefs and that's good.  It's good to hear someone defend what they believe and stand up for what they think is right in the face of adversity.

Silly question: Why would God give humans yet one more thing to fail at?  Why do all this on earth for a few years when we get eternity in Heaven where, I assume, marriage is perfect?

warmaker :



Penguins do it because marriage is a natural- and healthier thing (than orgies) God may have put that in them, probably did. Although since the fall of man, things have become less than perfect in nature.



It's kindof like "what make murder wrong?"





The reason that we have morals, is because, we have the idea of mortality engraved into all of us by God, who showed us what makes something right and wrong. Who showed us the concept of marriage. This concept survived in many cultures, particularly China, which is brought up a lot by people. They probably were passed down the concept of marriage by Noah. Even their original alphabet tells of the flood story, along with other neat tales about clearing the lands of dragons so that humans could habit it. This way the men do not abuse the women, but protect them.



"And there are those who aren't Christian who do better at marriage than some who are Christian."



My people perish from lack of knowledge is what the Bible says, don't know the exact verse. But those who are "Christians" often don't know the proper teachings of the Bible, or how it was taught in the original Jewish languages.







The Jewish teachings on marriage is so engraved that even their language tells us the blue prints of it.





For example, in thenumberone's article, it talked about the languages of the middleast here:



"In later times, the Bible describes wives as being given the innermost room(s) of the husband's house, as her own private area to which men were not permitted"





Except that the Jews have always had the principle of letting the women have the innermost chambers. This is why the Jewish word for a house shows the wall of a building from a bird's eye view. We have the outer chamber where the men sleep. And we have inner chamber where the women sleep. This is so that if intruders come to attack, the men are met first and are able to protect the women, who are of high value.





Another example of where the Jewish language teaches us marriage principals, is in the word for man and woman it's self.





If you take all the vowels in the Hebrew word for man and woman. These vowels spell the word "fire"





The center letter in the word fire spells God.





I'm only giving you brief version of this.





But what this teaches us about marriage is that God has to be at the center of marriage.





This is what I love about you Hebrew, you can look up anything about it in the original languages and find insightful truths that improve your life so much.



Apparently sex is more godly than some people might think based on this teaching.





This stuff and the Hebrew's similarity to the Chinese language is why I think that China got if from Noah.







"It's good to hear someone defend what they believe and stand up for what they think is right in the face of adversity."





I'm pleased to see the same thing. I just wish people weren't so mean talking about this stuff. Although, Jewishly, what we perceive as right is very close to our hearts, and the things must be dealt with softly.



I only state and defend my beliefs because I see them as true. If I am correct, I want to tell as many people as possible, not to be someone great, but to spread the good word, and hopefully save a few lives form misery. :3



I would like to thank you for having manners in this discussion though. :3





"Silly question: Why would God give humans yet one more thing to fail at? Why do all this on earth for a few years when we get eternity in Heaven where, I assume, marriage is perfect?"





That's not a silly question! I love these questions, (if the person asking it isn't just trying to be a jerk). I will break this up into two parts.





"Why would God give humans yet one more thing to fail at?"



This life is a test. God did not make a Communistic world, God made a world more like Capitalism. there is Risk, and where there is risk and test of skill and wisdom, there is reward. I'm sorry for all those who disagree, I love this system. It allows me to pursue my dreams. And actually do something with my life. Kinda like an RPg. In the end, we will be judged and granted various positions in the next kingdom.



"Why do all this on earth for a few years when we get eternity in Heaven where, I assume, marriage is perfect?"





Sortof already answered this above, and we don't get married in Heaven.



I know, you're thinking, "How can you have heaven without marriage?"





Well, when we are children and our parents are alone doing our thing, we cannot possibly comprehend what is going on in there. The most enjoyable possible thing we can think that they are doing is playing pokemon eating chocolate.



But we cannot even comprehend what is going on.



A child asks, "How can they have so much fun without chocolate?"



We ask: "How can you have Heaven without marriage"



Well, up the next rung of the ladder, there must be something even better. :3





If I am correct, we won't have genders in heaven, although we will remember what gender we were here on earth.

I may only be 14 but i still would like to get married and have kids but ill wait until I find the right person and also after i get out of school(this counts for collage to).

I personally believe that marriage serves two purposes. The first is a legal purpose. Marriage allows two people to be legally considered one entity, simplifying legal matters as a couple. The second purpose is a symbolic purpose. Marriage is a commitment to a person for the rest of your life, symbolic of how much you love and are dedicated to your spouse.

Sword legion : So... while I appreciate your attempt to not sound like you are being judgmental of my opinions, I think you have a few issues with your little example.

First off, if they had forgotten everything, including who the other people were, how would Jane even know what marriage is?

Second off, you are ignoring actual human nature. Actual human males, in most cases anyway, actual do have parental instincts and would stick by their pregnant mates to make sure the children would be safe.

Why? Well, that leads to the actual reason that marriage became a thing.

You see, you have your dozen couples. They work hard and build up their tiny community. Naturally, each claims a bit of space as their own... because it's what humans do. They mate, have kids, the kids have kids and time passes... but then we run into a problem. John has his bit of space and his belongings, and he knows that he will not live forever so he want them to go to his offspring. But, unless there is a very striking resemblance, he won't know which kids are his. So John come up with a plan. He goes up to Jane and says, "Hey, Jane, I have a proposal for you. Agree to be my mate, exclusively and bear only my children, and I will provide for you and protect you for the rest of your life."

Jane asks, "And why would you want that? What do you get?"

"I get the security of knowing that all my belongings will be passed on to my own children when I die, and no one else can try to claim them," John responds.

"Sounds good to me," Jane answers. "How do we do this?"

"We will go to the elders and have them make a decree that we are now bound to each other, and that it is illegal for either of us to be with another from now on."

... The above depiction is, of course, leaving out the part that the societies that created the concept of marriage actually treated women as property of their fathers until marriage, and therefore explaining the idea of dowries (literally buying the woman) and that this whole conversation would have taken place between John and Jane's father instead of Jane herself. But simplicity is better for making my point.

Now that we've finished with this tangent... as I stated before, my fiance and I are already committed to each other and have those feelings for each other, for those reasons. The legal stuff is the only thing that keeps us from being called "married" already. The only reason we are bothering with a courthouse ceremony is for our families... a symbolic gesture, as thebiguglyalien put it. You attach more sentimentality and religious meaning to it, that is fine, it is your opinion... but my beliefs are different.

While I am (obviously) not married, I do find it something amazing. I believe that the idea of spending the rest of your life with only one person whom you love and appreciate more than anyone else, is something that is something almost crucial. But I do believe that you don't need a marriage to prove that.

Now, while marriage is an astounding thing (From what I've gathered.) there are people that use it for personal gain only and it disgusts me. People who only marry someone rich and famous, just to divorce them and gain something material. Love is something that can be measured by nothing else. If you love someone, it is the most amazing feeling in the universe, and people using something as sacred and precious as marriage for no reason but personal gain is almost a crime against humanity. The only reason I would marry someone is because I truly love and care for that person, whom ever it may be.

Elara : That's a long ass post, but I dare say that if it weren't for the usually biased and crooked litigation process of marriage and divorce, men wouldn't have such a hard time wanting to commit to a relationship or what have you. If you have the slightest bit of wealth and your spouse doesn't you need to strap yourself full of protection and pre nups because everyone wants a big slice of something they didn't earn from the person they did.

UFC : Doesn't apply just to men, my friend. My fiance's mother was reemed by her now ex-husband because of the laws in Pennsylvania. The "man" (we call him Jabba the Hick) refused to work during the entire 10 years of their marriage. He was morbidly obese, and refused to get any kind of weight loss surgery done when she offered to pay for it because he would have been required to diet for a few months first (the man lives off butter and cheese puffs, I swear). After eight years, she got tired of him being a total jerk to her and refusing to earn his share (did I mention he made major purchases without consulting her?), so she filed for divorce. He drug it out for two years, tried to go after her pension, property in her name, and basically everything she had after getting a crooked doctor to declare him handicapped so he could get on social security disability (after being turned down by five other doctors). He was declared "At Fault" for the divorce, but because of PA laws, she had to give him the house he was living in, her car, the cargo trailer they used to move here, and $30,000 as alimony (which was the minimum he could get by law).

So yeah... pre-nups are a good thing for both sides. It is basically divorce insurance. You don't want to ever need it, but you don't know what the future holds... and if you two end up in a bitter divorce after 15 years or something, you will be happy you did it.

Elara : Man that guy sounds like a fat tub of lard who has zero shame and wants everything for nothing. The law is really screwed when it comes to giving a fair amount to both parties when the higher earner or in most cases the only big earner should get majority stake instead of the leechy spouse. And some people getting married say why do you want a pre nup don't you trust me? Well if you don't do it and they screw you over anyways you will look like and defiantly feel like a broke goon and it shouldn't matter to the other person if you want  a pre nup if they aren't gonna rob you. 

In my opinion, marriages aren't lasting long at all. It seems as if people are marrying young because society promotes youth and sex so much, that people combine it into an unhealthy marriage.

I'm too young to get married, and honestly, idk when I'll be old enough to marry.

Cohabitation is probably unhealthy because of the increased chance of drinking and sex occurring outside of marriage (but if that's what people want to do, who am I to judge?)

Elara :

Eeh, you didn't do too bad yourself.

Yes, it is true that humans are mutual creatures, we have parenting instincts and feelings for our kin.

You might say that we have these because of evolution. I would suggest that these feelings are given to us by our God, because of His character and morality. But, I would also like to point our one more thing. Why would anyone in their right mind, who was only concerned about themselves, care about there children at all? Let alone care about them. We kill our own offspring before they are even born. It seems to be the pattern of a society to follow rules that cause it to prosper, and then remove them for the sake of convenience.

But at this point the topic moves a little to far away from the original point to discuss without being spammy in which I think we have already moved it off a little more than we'd like.

warmaker : The penguins mate for life thing is a misconception. Very often, they don't mate for life. They remain manogamous for that particular mating season. But it is very common for penguins to change mates when the next mating season comes around. Ones that actually mate for life are a fair minority.

Elara : Pre-nups are basically saying, "we don't expect this to work."  I don't like them because they give an out to a couple instead of encouraging them to work together to solve their problems.  People also generally don't change over night.  Was the ex-husband fat, lazy, and not a team player when your fiancee's mother dated him?  I would think those sort of things pop up in the relationship prior to marriage.  My wife hasn't fundamentally changed in the past 13 years.  She still has her personality and she still does what she does.

I think marriage should do be done like sports contracts.  Do it for three years and renegotiate at the end of the contract.  If you want to more years, you can.  Or you divvy up assets and go on your merry way.  You wouldn't need pre-nups and asset protection.  Different people define different things.  You mentioned the husband not doing 'his share.'  My wife and I merged everything and it's all equal property between the two of us.  Of course, we have a high level of respect for each other so we wouldn't go out and buy something big without consideration for the person.

Do you have a pre-nup?

warmaker : sorry but for me that's is silly, you are basing not getting a pre nup on the trust that your other half wont ever change or show there true colours and rob you blind. You are one of the lucky ones that hasn't had that trouble but I can damn well tell you most divorces are very ugly and usually someone gets ripped to shreds financially and assets too because they trusted them and din't get  a pre nup. There should be no reason for you to oppose your spouse getting one if you aren't gonna get divorced and be a leech anyways, and if you are you shouldn't be getting married anyways with your selfish intentions.

UFC : I agree I'm lucky.  I cannot think of another person I trust more or have more faith in than my wife.  I absolutely, 100% trust her and believe in her decisions no matter what.  We have our arguments and we have changed and evolved over 15 odd years of relationship but we're still together, we're still happy, and we're still very lucky.

Things work for us because we have respect, faith, and trust in each other.  

Ideally, marriage starts like that for everyone.  If you are thinking about  a pre-nuptual agreement, marriage isn't the right answer.  Something less formal is the right answer.  Marriage is saying, "I bet half my stuff we're going to make it."

If you wouldn't bet half your stuff, why are you committing to someone for the rest of your lives?  If you think it might not last, why are you making the leap?

warmaker : Well that's the thing, people are sometimes so blinded by love they don't use their intuition that aid person is unstable or is a golddigger and then they get careless and get married and it all eventually comes crashing down soon enough. I'll give you one example of a marriage going horrible wrong in terms of litigation for the guy because he didnt protect himself via law. Shane mosely is a boxing legend, he married his girlfriend without any prenups or anything.

To make things worse he made her (or maybe she did) his boxing manager. She was a horrible boxing manager that got him the worst fights and worst paydays because of poor negotiating skills too. SO after all this she divorces him and she takes more than half his stuff and she also takes his 3 boxing world titles even though she has never been in a ring in her life. So you see his faith that she would love him forever was an ill fated mistake that cost him big and she is despicable. No one really knows if your life partner will one day reveal their real intentions or whatever.