I'll try to make this short. The Bible is a very scientific book, despite what many say about it, like it is just a book full of stories backed by no physical or scientific evidence. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionarystates that science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."
Well for one thing, the Bible is definitely knowledge attained through study and practice, but what about the second definition? Well, the Bible is definately concerned with the physical world and it does talk about the operations of general laws like the water cycle...
Ecclesiastes 1:7(NIV)
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.

the circulating system of the wind...
Ecclesiastes 1:6 (NIV)
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.

and even that blood sustains life.
Leviticus 17:11 (New International Version)
11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

All of these scientific laws were discovered by scientists thousands of yars later! The water cycle was discovered 1600 years after the Bible stated it! The ciculating system of the wind was discovered 2700 years later and the fact that blood sustains life was discovered 3300 years later! For more scientific discoveries in the Bible just message me.

My next arguement is that we know that everything needs a creation. Us, the earth, but what about God? The Bible does not say where God came from. The thing you have to remember is that the universe is more than simply matter in motion. God is the Creator of time and matter, therefore He is not matter and has no sense of time. Because He created time, He is outside of time (meaning He knows what has happened and what will happen.) He created matter, therefore He is not matter, but He is Spirit and Spirit does not need a creation. According to the big bang theory, a tiny dot exploded andcreated the universe... it brought the earth into perfect orbit(if we were any closer we'd burn and if we were any farther away we'd freeze)... it even made the universe so big that we cannot even comprehend its size... eventually, life apparently came from non-life and evolved and became homo sapien(modern human.) As we speak(or type), evolutionists are guessing at how life could have come from non-life... so far, nothing has worked. They are just at the starting point of understanding a theory that has become so widely accepted as fact. thye are so early in understanding evolution that they don't even know where the dot that exploded and created everything came from. Everything needs a creation, this is, everything meaning matter. Now unless the tiny dot is spirit, I don't think it was there, or that it happened at all. If you don't know HOW something happened, how do you know THAT it happened at all? I hate to see people think that random chance made the complex structure of the human brain, or the human eye.
MAIN POINT: We obviously have a design(look at the complex structure of the brain, eye, heart, etc.), so do you want to believe that a design was created by random chance or that it was designed and created by a Creator?

Sorry it was so long, can't wait to see your feedback. thanks

I'm not saying I disagree with your assessments of what these scriptures say but I think there has been a lot about the earth that was understood but not as clearly described as we have done so today. The fact that the Earth is round was known before Jesus was born (the Greeks knew it.... or at least some Greeks knew it)....

I'm not saying it's not true what you've said but I just think that these things were probably understood in a very limited way compared to how we understand them today.



As for the second portion - how do we know that everything needs a creation?

The only other thing is that the complexity of any one system doesn't prove or disprove either sides opinion.


I'm not saying I disagree with you in general but there are some holes in your argument....

Of course it was known before scientists "discovered" it. What scientists did was explain the HOW and the WHY. As geeogree said, there are some holes in your argument.

The bible is pseudo science which basically means it contains stuff that is possible and stuff that is impossible (to the average human, like paranormal stuff) but nothing is impossible we just think it is because we are stuck in a realm that molds us into that state of mind.

Science is too conclusive and no one should follow it there are way to many loopholes around science. One the other hand, pseudo science is better it expands into the unknown which is why science alone will never do much good explaining spirit and other forms.

Science = Known
Pseudo Science = Unknown

Makes sense why science can't explain the unknown.

Originally posted by geeogree

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I'm not saying I disagree with your assessments of what these scriptures say but I think there has been a lot about the earth that was understood but not as clearly described as we have done so today. The fact that the Earth is round was known before Jesus was born (the Greeks knew it.... or at least some Greeks knew it)....

I'm not saying it's not true what you've said but I just think that these things were probably understood in a very limited way compared to how we understand them today.



As for the second portion - how do we know that everything needs a creation?

The only other thing is that the complexity of any one system doesn't prove or disprove either sides opinion.


I'm not saying I disagree with you in general but there are some holes in your argument....

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Everything needs a creation because it is a scientific law.

which scientific law is that?

One of the laws of thermodynamics states that matter can neither be created nor destroyed..... so which scientific law are you referencing?

Thats the one. I forgot which one it is because of a brain fart

well, you're using the law wrong if you are suggesting that everything needs a creation. That law of thermodynamics is saying the exact opposite thing. It says nothing that exists was created.... only that it has changed from one form into another.

I'm not suggesting that precludes a creative process by a higher power.... I believe that God created the universe but the greek word for create or creation meant something more like organized or formed rather than the created out of nothing idea that many Christians hold. This suggests that God organized the universe out of matter that already existed and gave it purpose.

So would that mean that God came before or after matter, in your opinion?

well it depends on what you think God is. I think God is made of matter (I think "spirit" is a form of matter) and therefore to suggest that he has always seems reasonable.

Well in that case then He would still have to Create the earth. God made those laws(and we named them once we discovered them) so He can definately break them if He wanted to. He is the only thing keeping them going.

why is God allowed to break his own laws?

Because He made them. He is the only thing that keeps them in effect, and they probably weren't even in effect until He created the world. If He can put them in effect and He is the only thing keeping it in effect, He can take it out of effect at any point. See what I'm saying?

But perhaps the laws began when God created the world itself?
Maybe with it's creation, and because of it's creation, it attained and began to keep certain laws, certain things that manage what it is.

Well, He made everything, every little detail, I'm sure He could have done it any of those ways, but it doesn't matter as much to know all the little details. As long as we can discover that Jesus is the one True Messiah.

But what I'm suggesting is that he did not make the laws, if he did make the Earth to begin with, but they were created themselves FROM the creation of the Earth, if that makes any sense. Thus, God, in a sense, is still under Earth's laws.

So, in essence, what you're saying is, that Jesus is the "one true messiah" and everyone else is a myth/lie?

Just making sure. :/

Originally posted by Neyro

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So, in essence, what you're saying is, that Jesus is the "one true messiah" and everyone else is a myth/lie?

Just making sure. :/

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Hey, no need to tear down what other people believe.... if that is what he believes he is entitled to it.... it's what quite a few members on this board believe but don't put in to those exact words. You believe differently and you're entitled to believe whatever you want. But don't be sarcastic if you're going to be posting responses to people's serious threads.

Well why would God be caught up in Earth's laws if He created the Earth? He is the only thing that is holding us up and keeping us alive. If God disappeared, the universe would.

Ok, let's say that we credit anything that is currently unexplained to god.

God made the earth.

God created the universe.

God made everything and is beyond time and matter itself.

Sure, those are all answers to problems you can come up with, but they don't educate at all.

That's the problem with crediting things to god, sure you can but you don't learn anything. You could say that "god created the rivers" or "rivers are created when it rains in the mountains so the water starts flowing".

Both are answers, but one educates us and makes us learn more about the world around us.

I'm not saying it's bad to credit god for everything, but so far it seems like this god of yours came up with a good excuse to explain how things are like they are, and if you find those. Well, you learn a lot of useful knowledge about the world.


So yeah, the Bible could be scientific, and yes it holds answers. But it could be good if you saw some of them as "placeholders" they work and yes they explain, if vaguely. But if we can find the more "scientific" answers, then that will most probably benefit the human race more.


(Also, I'm a strong believer of agnosticism and science, just so people don't think I'm an atheist.)

Originally posted by geeogree
Hey, no need to tear down what other people believe.... if that is what he believes he is entitled to it.... it's what quite a few members on this board believe but don't put in to those exact words. You believe differently and you're entitled to believe whatever you want. But don't be sarcastic if you're going to be posting responses to people's serious threads.

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I'm not being sarcastic, I was asking a legit question. I was only confirming if I understood in what he believed, if not, he would correct me and I could continue on in the conversation.

I wasn't trying to tear anything down.