Yes, that's a good point. I suppose you should learn and live by the bible to some extent. Trying to stay on the same subject, once you know what a sin is, can that make you a more christian person? So if you want to be a liberal christian, you should at learn from the bible; belieev that Jesus died for our sins, and know what a sin is?
Just trying to summerise this. Again, is there a flaw in my logic?

Darkpower508 : Well, people know what sin is more or less. There is no such thing as being "more of a Christian." Everyone sins because everyone has the same sinful nature, both inherited by Adam's Original Sin and from our own Actual Sins. A Christian is someone who repents (turn from sin to God) and trust in God's sacrifice on the cross and believe in God and His Word (faith).

That is why liberal Christianity is no Christianity at all. If you look back at the link from tRIUNE, there is a list of what liberal Christianity is:

1) The Bible is not “God-breathed” and has errors.
2) The virgin birth of Christ is a mythological false teaching.
3) Jesus did not rise again from the grave in bodily form.
4) Jesus was a good moral teacher, but His followers and their followers have taken liberties with the history of His life as recorded in scripture (there were no “supernatural” miracles), with the gospels having been written many years later and merely ascribed to the early disciples in order to give greater weight to their teachings.
5) Hell is not real. Man is not lost in sin and is not doomed to some future judgment without a relationship with Christ through faith. Man can help himself; no sacrificial death by Christ is necessary since a loving God would not send people to such a place as hell and since man is not born in sin.
6) Most of the human authors of the Bible are not as traditionally believed.
7) The most important thing for man to do is to “love” his neighbor.

I would add that because they don't have a firm foundation (believe the Bible is just a book of stories, that it has errors and is not God breathed), they won't believe in the basic essential doctrine that Jesus is both God and Man. And then with them thinking that all that matter is "love" their neighbors, they don't understand the issue is sin and that God has offered forgiveness of sin to all who receive it, and it is by what Jesus did on the cross alone that atoned sin. Christianity is NOT moralism. It's not about trying to do good as best as you can and feel good about it. It's surrendering to Christ and through the Holy Spirit, God helps a person to be sanctified and continually sanctifies a person's life to be more Christ-like.

As for the social and political issues that are liberal: For creation (Big Bang, Evolution), even though there are debates within the Christian circle, all Christians still hold the fact that God created the world and that the Bible still holds an important part on telling how the world was made; for the issue of homosexuality (gay marriage), the Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is a sin and it is detestable in God's sight. This in no way tells us to discriminate or abuse homosexuals, but it does not tell us to support their actions in their lifestyle. You bring anything sinful or wrong thing and if there is a law that says to support it as lawful, you wouldn't support it. That is why Christians supporting gay marriage is inconsistent to what they believe; Embryonic issues (abortion and stem cell research), Christians believe that every human life is valuable and are made in the image of God. The Bible says that God knew us before we were formed in the womb (Jeremiah 1:5). That is why we must fight for every human life as much as possible. Christians have no problem with adult stem cell research, but are very against embryonic stem cell research.

Social liberalism is just another political/economical view and like all political/economical views, they look good on paper, but won't work perfectly because they are all operated by sinful corrupt humans.

Again, in a theological standpoint, Liberal Christianity is no Christianity at all.

thenumberone : So you think it is sin when it is OFFERED to you to pick two jobs and take the better paid one? That's not greed at all. It's just take a better opportunity that is offered to you. The person is not doing anything illegal or sinister in order to achieve what a person wants or actually engrossing their mind on really wanting something.

And I understand what your point is, the problem is that supporting gay marriage and abortion goes against what the Bible stands for and supporting those sides and say that you are a Christian is such a flip-flop and contradictory position.

Thanks for that. I disagreed on pretty much everything on the list you have given me. So I guess I'm more into my faith then I thought. Although I know the theroy of the big bank and evolution, but that doesn't mean I'm not a Christan, right?

play4fun :
You are seeking more than you need,do i think its wrong?no.is it glutenous?most definitely,unless you give all of what you dont need to those who do.that in itself shouldnt be much compared to a man laying down his life for you.
The giving what you dont need could be emphasised by the story where jesus has fish and bread i think,and shares it with all.

thenumberone : Again...saving money and getting a better job is not the same of being gluttonous or greedy. Actually I think your line of logic is irreversible.

Here is your line of logic: (G= gluttonous or greedy, M=saving money or getting a better job)

You are correct when you say:
G --> M (Being gluttonous or greedy can lead to saving money or getting a better job)

You are incorrect to say:
M --> G (Saving money or getting a better job is gluttonous or greedy)

People who do these things are not necessarily greedy or gluttonous.

You are basically saying that everyone who has an income more than they need should either quit or give everything they have. The Bible even mentions how saving money is a wise thing to do. (Read the Book of Proverbs). Also you have to remember of God's gifts and blessings as well. God gives gifts and blessings to those that we do not really need, and he expects us to use and to keep those gifts and blessings, because it was His plan to give it to those He gave. (Solomon's Wisdom, Samson's strength, Hannah's son [Samuel])

The Bible also talks about having a selfless heart, how we should not be storing treasures on earth and that we should not love money, for it is the root of all evil. It does not say that money ITSELF is the root of all evil. It focuses on where a person's heart is. Not everything that deals with keeping money has a greedy motive, it can be good stewardship of money.

It is not a sin to save, it IS a sin to hoard or to squander. I read somewhere about the topic of Christians and money, and I think this is right on. It is not a saving issue, or a giving issue. You should do both at the same time and find a balance to achieve "saving" rather than "hoarding" or "squandering." As long as your heart does not love money like it is the most important and precious thing in your life (this can apply to other things too), you won't find yourself hoarding or squandering anything.

Again, you need to check your definitions more clearly, because gluttony deals with overindulgence, which is a self control issue. Greed is excessive desire of something that they plan to keep for themselves. Having something that is not necessarily needed in life is not greed. A kid can have a toy (which is not needed) and not be greedy through sharing that toy to others (no excessive desire to keep it for his own) Having more money than others does not necessarily mean greed, it's where the heart is.

FINALLY (back on topic), it still does not show that there is such a thing as a liberal Christian. Again, the issues of gay marriage and abortion are no small issue for a Christian, and supporting them would be inconsistent to their beliefs and their witness.

play4fun : glutony by its very definition is desiring or consuming in excess.as i said i dont think this is wrong but the bible is clear.no one is free of sin so no one is truely in a position to declare that you cant get into heaven,you can hypothosise about what is sin but the bible is clear only god may judge his creations,the judgement following death.

thenumberone : Well, the way you defined on that post is correct, and it is wrong. All I'm saying is that saving money or getting a better job is not gluttonous, because it does not have to deal with desire of money.

The Bible clearly points out that one can know what sin is through God's laws and God's Word.

"What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."(Romans 7:7)

"All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16,17)

The Bible talks about Christians need to point out sin with careful discernment. As long as we have God's Word, we can know what sin is and to point out truth in love. (Matthew 18:15–17, John 7:24)

And actually, the Bible makes it clear who goes to heaven and who does not. (John 3:16-18; John 3:36; John 14:6)

play4fun : "i" think your idea of gluttony is incorrect due to getting the definition wrong.
I also think that the bible is not clear,it is interpreted by the reader in there own way,and that by its message only god may judge.
Lastly i think that we are going in circles now and wont see eye to eye on this issue so to quote an overused and somewhat corny line i think we will have to agree to disagree

thenumberone : You can make a new thread or poll if you like on whether saving money is considered gluttony.

Tell me this, did you even look up the verse that I listed on my previous post? How much more clear can they be? I don't even need to interpret them, I can just read them, and it's obvious right there. In fact, they need to be. Without clear verses like these, no Christian would understand what Christians believe. And you don't interpret the Bible based on what the reader thinks. It should be by what it says and what the author intended, or else you are in risk of interpreting it wrong.

play4fun : whats clear to 1 man is complex to another.whats fast to me could be slow to you.whats strange to me could be normal to you.
As for the poll i dont know that would interest anyone but u can go ahead and post it and il be sure to vote,i think the argument here is somewhat stale by now though

thenumberone : But this is not rocket science. You can understand it just by reading it. It is blatantly written right there. And you should be capable of understanding it. You are 19 years old. You must have some type of language education when you are able to read and write English sentences, so it would not be that complex that you can't even understand what the verse is saying.

Seriously, read Romans 7:7 again. What do you think it says?

play4fun : it is clear that it says without the laws of god he wouldnt know what was sinfull but the bible is not clear throughout in its messages.
As for my knowledge of english i have a degree in english,so i have a greater knowledge of it than most, i am perfectly 'capable' thank you,bear that in mind.

thenumberone : Good. (That's incredible too, having a degree at the age of 19) Then you probably understand that when interpreting a text, you are trying to find the authorial intent rather than a personal relative thoughts. You understand that through context, understanding of history and the culture of that time and it's applications to life now all contribute to interpreting a text correctly, not our personal feelings and thoughts about the text. Using these methods, tools and actually read the text, one can find the meaning and the intentions of the text, as well as the overarching themes of the text. You can say that you disagree with the text if you want, no one can force you on that, but don't say that the Bible is overall an unclear, obscure book that defines it's meaning and message based on individual feelings and thoughts on the text. Authors have their intentions for writing those messages to the targeted audience.

play4fun : but there is the problem,when the author makes so many different scenarios or contrasting statements that the true intent could be verified only by the writer themselves.an example i could say would be shakesphere.the merchant of venice,relevant as it too deals with religion.the christians sin, they treat the jews like vermin,they seem to be evil. He makes you feel pity for the jewish man that shapes most of the book.but then all the stereotypes of jews are laid down,cruely,greed,cowardice,vengefullness.the christian 'hero' marrys a woman purely for her money and forces the jewish man to convert to christianity,and renounce his wealth under threat of death and yet it is conveyed as a good ending.i still dont know his true message,i can read one part,make a decision,the next it seems to have changed.
So it is with the bible,you can try to see his true intent but the only one who could verify you were right would be god.you need to use your instinct,what you feel to translate the message.and you could still be wrong.
We are supposedly made in gods image,the brain is a complex thing,you cant hope to understand everything that comes from it,whether written or otherwise.to that extent i can only imagine that if god exists the real learing would be after death,when words spoken by god,not written by man,would pass to you.until that point the bible is what you have to go on.i cant imagine god punishing someone for mistakes,if some of your views were wrong the just solution would be to see if you followed correctly the bible after god had clarified.Unless one of the traits we got from 'gods image' was our sometimes barbaric and cruel lack of understanding,in which case were all doomed anyway.
To that extent death holds lifes answers,but personally iv still got a whole lot of living left to do so il postpone that for now.

thenumberone : Here's the problem with your example. You used a drama/play, and we have no idea what the Merchant of Venice is trying to express about antisemitism (which is the big theme in this play), unless we know what Mr. Shakespeare's stance on this issue is in real life. However, the verses that I used previously are instructional letters that were sent and reproduced to churches at that time. It was not written poetically or abstractly. It had to be written clear to address certain issues in the church and proclaim truths inspired by God. Another thing to mention is to go back what tRIUNE was talking about, is that the Holy Spirit helps a person understand what the Bible says. The Bible talks about how "no one understands, and no one seeks after God" (Romans 3:11). It is written in John 16:12-13 that shows the Holy Spirit's role in understanding scripture: "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."

The big problem is that you are also pushing your own understanding to the Bible itself: "i cant imagine god punishing someone for mistakes" Sin is not simply mistakes (which I really despise it when modern day preachers use "mistakes" to make "sins" less offending sounding). Sins are acts of rebellion against God, and the Bible makes it clear that God hates sin.

It is not a matter of the Bible not being clear, but that you are not trying to find answers that you don't understand and seek answers to understand these questions.

Final note: "To that extent death holds lifes answers,but personally iv still got a whole lot of living left to do so il postpone that for now" Yeah, everyone thinks that, but life is not something that we can control. We do not know the day or the hour that we die. So I say to you, there are answers to your questions. Seek it.