NotJon : "I believe that God would forgive people that are truly repentant."
so does repentance save them?

Well, the context is not really unclear. That verse is part of Jesus' sermon of the mount, which started all the way in chapter 5. Context can include: time, location, place, the understanding at that time, the topic at that time, the theme of the verse throughout the surrounding verses, reference to past verses, author's intent, etc. There's an actual study about this, it's call biblical hermeneutic, which is the art and science of how to interpret the Bible. That's similar to interpreting literature.

"Wouldn't this support my point? Wouldn't correction imply that things would be unclear or in need of an update? Wouldn't this also mean that you can use it as you wish? More than one option is given."

ummm, it said that it is used for teaching, reproof, correction, and for training in righteousness, it is not talking correcting the Bible itself. In fact, let's look at the next verse, it says "so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." So the Bible can be preparing a man of God to be equipped for good work.

play4fun : To me, it still sounds as if it's supporting what I said. How about we just agree to disagree? I did not plan on converting you to NotJonism (not that it exists) and I bet that you are not trying to convert me into Conservative Christianity (or whatever it is called). So let's just end this little back and forth now.

NotJon : That is what a thread is for, is it not? Actually this is more that trying to convince someone about some idea or fact. I truly believe that it is important that a Christian actually knows what he or she believes in, and that it is a desire to seek God's truth. We don't want to get this wrong, because this includes our salvation, eternal destiny, who our Lord is, where can we put our confidence in, etc. That's is why theology is so important in the realm of faith.

btw, just plain Bible-believing Christian is fine.

"I believe that God would forgive people that are truly repentant."

You know, if true repentance is an issue of narrow-mindedness I think the understanding of it makes the all the difference. Repentance means to change directions from sin towards God. Though in your daily life, repentance does not come of yourself in Christianity; we don't have the power in and of ourselves to break the bondage of sin.

It is the Holy Spirit who empowers the Christian to repent on a daily basis. As a Christian I don't have to do certain things that I normally would be drawn to do. For other religions, I think that they lack this freedom from the bondage of sin because they are trying to repent within their own determination instead of God doing the reformation.

tRIUNE : "It is the Holy Spirit who empowers the Christian to repent on a daily basis. As a Christian I don't have to do certain things that I normally would be drawn to do. For other religions, I think that they lack this freedom from the bondage of sin because they are trying to repent within their own determination instead of God doing the reformation."

Do you honestly believe that your choice of religion gives you special rights that God wouldn't give someone else who is truly trying to become a better person? Give me a break.

geeogree : There is a struggle within every person who is trying to lead a good life. We want to do the right things, and we are determined to do them. We want to stop doing things that are wrong. But there is a battle going on inside, and we often end up doing things we hate and neglecting the things we really want to do.

We can't fix it on our own. We are unable to reform ourselves. We need outside help. And God comes along to do just that when you are born of the Holy Spirit. Everyone apart from a relationship with God through the Holy Spirit is a slave of sin. Sin, by it's very nature, enslaves us. All sin is addictive. If it were not addictive, no one would even want to do it.

The results are so unsatisfying and ultimately devastating, no one would continue in it if it were not so addicting. But Christ came to set us free from sin. He gives us the choice of either being slaves to sin or becoming His servants. Christians can reckon themselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ.

The result of slavery to sin is death. The result of slavery to God is eternal life. When you are living in repentance through your own determination it always ends in frustration, but when you are repentant through the Holy Spirit it always leads to an abundant, genuine life that is lived in a relationship with God.

As it says in Romans 8:10-11, And If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. The same power that raised Christ from the dead is the same power that is within the Christian and thus sets him or her free.

play4fun : "I can be ok with Christians are still Christians if they believe in an old earth or a young earth (even though the view of old earth would imply that Jesus would be lying in Mark 10:6)"


"But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE" (Mark 10:6)

Even if you believe the earth was created in a week this verse is still a lie. No matter how you look at it humans were not created at the BEGINNING of creation but rather on the SIXTH day, the end of creation. So it is safe to conclude that you have interpreted the verse incorrectly or our Savior is a liar.

You have taken the verse out of its context; Mark 10:2-9 is in fact referring to marriage. The greek word "ktisis" which is translated to creation could be translated many other ways; for example, it can also mean created thing, creature, or institution.

Knowing this, it is apparent that the verse in question is suggesting that the institution of marriage was commanded from the beginning of the first two "CREATURES". To translate the word to "creation" makes the statement false regardless of whether or not you believe the earth is young or old; therefore, insisting that this verse has any relevance to the age of the earth means that you yourself are making Jesus into a liar.

I would also like to know how you explain the verses that say that the Bible has been proclaimed to a thousand generations (Deuteronomy 7:9, 1 Chronicles 16:15, Psalm 105:8). Is a generation only 10 years? How could people even reproduce at age 10? The average biblical generation would be around 40 years and the first dozen or so around 900-1000 years. If you want to interpret the Bible literally wouldn't you have to believe the earth is about 40,000-50,000 years old?

I don't know if chrsitians themselves are narrow minded, but the title of the thread makes this seem like a narrow minded question. I have had conversations with people of the christian religion, and although not all the time, I become frustrated that they will not listen to any other opinions than that of their own, which is why I just try to drop conversations like that, because I am not good at being frustrated.

SilverMaestro : that's cause they walk into any religious conversation from the position that they are right and you are wrong.

dmalbrecht : "No matter how you look at it humans were not created at the BEGINNING of creation but rather on the SIXTH day, the end of creation."

"The greek word "ktisis" which is translated to creation could be translated many other ways; for example, it can also mean created thing, creature, or institution."

Taking this back to what you referred to in Greek. The "beginning of creation" Jesus refers here is talking about that 6 day process of God creating the heavens and the earth. It is talking about the beginning of all of "creation (noun: Created things)" not the beginning of "creation (process: the process of creating everything)"

Also, going back to Genesis 1:1 "In the BEGINNING God created the heavens and the earth." Here it is giving the introduction to the process of creation. It refers the entire 6 day process as the beginning of creation. That is why we will wait until Genesis 2:1, when it says "Thus the heavens and the earth were COMPLETED in all their vast array."

Why else would Jesus refer Adam and Eve to be created "in the beginning of creation"?

"You have taken the verse out of its context; Mark 10:2-9 is in fact referring to marriage."

I know it is talking about marriage. But I am not taking the meaning out of the verse, I am looking at the setting that Jesus is talking about, and He refers back to the beginning.

"Knowing this, it is apparent that the verse in question is suggesting that the institution of marriage was commanded from the beginning of the first two "CREATURES"."

If you look at any Bible, you can see footnotes or verses on the bottom for reference or cross-referencing to other verses. This verse is pointed back to Genesis 1:27, which talks about the God creating Adam and Eve. Soo, you are right that it is suggesting the institution of marriage was commanded in the beginning, but not to the first two "creatures." It is specifically talking about human male and female.

"Is a generation only 10 years? How could people even reproduce at age 10? The average biblical generation would be around 40 years and the first dozen or so around 900-1000 years."

I don't understand what you are getting with this or where you get it saying that people are reproducing at age 10, but I went and look up what a generation would be now, and it's varies depending on country, gender and other things. For US males, a generation is about 25 years, but it still varies a lot. Can you clarify what you are trying to say using these verses and the topic of generation?

"If you want to interpret the Bible literally wouldn't you have to believe the earth is about 40,000-50,000 years old"

I don't exactly know the specifics of what young earth creationist are thinking in terms of the estimated time, but that sounds just about right. And in terms of talking about whether we should read the Bible literally, the Torah, or the first 5 books of the Old Testament, is written as historic records. These are written as history just like the other historic parts of the Bible, like Judges, 1 and 2 Chronicles, the Gospels, etc.

SilverMaestro : Just wondering, what topics are you referring to, because maybe the topics that you are referring to are not "opinions" to Christians.

play4fun : I beleive you slightly misunderstand my meaning, I know a bit about the religion itself, and realize that God is very important, but it is very difficult to have any sort of logical conversation about anything such as Sciences, Enginering, What's in the news, etc. Without God being a part of it and being part of all the good that has come out of anything that anybody has ever done. I am personally interested in multiple forms of Sciences, and I've had people flat out tell me that it's wrong and that people should stop trying to play God, but I say, that if it wasn't intended to be done, and if "God" did not want it done, then we would not be able to do it, nor would it be possible to do the things that are, for lack of a better term, "God Like."

SilverMaestro : when you say sciences, are you talking about stem cell research, cloning,...I don't know...in vitro fertilization? or are you talking about actual studies of science, like the concepts in physics, chemistry, and biology?

If you are referring to the latter, those are basically people who are anti-intellectual, and just don't understand that faith and learning/intellect can be integrated.

But if you are referring to the former, then I think they are going about the idea of whether these scientific processes are moral or not. "Play God" may be part of it, because the understanding from Christians about God and life.

The thing I was thinking about is stuff like meaning of life, or the afterlife and stuff like that. What Christian theology states is that God is not just very important, but also that the stuff that Christians believe are truth.

SilverMaestro : Happens to me a lot. I'm more or less agnostic now, but I like religious conversations, and still do kinda pray... That is kinda more out of rage and confusion, though. I don't know what is what. It's a really long story that I'd rather keep personal. For one, it wasn't just hormones.

Anyway, all faiths think like Christians in the fact that they believe they are right. Basically, if we put this entire thread onto a Muslim forum, we'd get the same results. Only from a Muslim point of view. I know I will get Bible verses at me for that, but it's just how religion works. I'm not saying anyone's wrong, as who am I to say God is fake. I freaking pray to the Christian God sometimes.

This conversation sorta ended pretty promptly from what I can see. Guess this could be like that sequal to Dracula that came out 112 years after the original book was released... Only, it took a few weeks for this one to come out.

That is all.

play4fun : "Knowing this, it is apparent that the verse in question is suggesting that the institution of marriage was commanded from the beginning of the first two "CREATURES"."

"If you look at any Bible, you can see footnotes or verses on the bottom for reference or cross-referencing to other verses. This verse is pointed back to Genesis 1:27, which talks about the God creating Adam and Eve. Soo, you are right that it is suggesting the institution of marriage was commanded in the beginning, but not to the first two "creatures." It is specifically talking about human male and female."

I meant that marriage was commanded from the beginning of the first humans. I wasn't trying to say marriage was commanded to birds, fish, etc. I was suggesting that the word creation be substituted with "created things" or "creatures". So from the beginning of the first humans (the creatures being referred to) marriage was commanded. Thus, Jesus is not lying in Mark 10:6.

I guess we just interpret the Genesis account differently. I think Gen. 1:1 is actually a creative act of God and you think it is an introduction. I don't really see how the context supports the latter interpretation myself. The argument could be made that Gen. 2:1 is just summarizing the events of creation and isn't very strong evidence for your interpretation. I have seen plently of evidence suggesting that "days" are not 24 hours in Gen. and it seems pretty logical. I wouldn't mind hearing your opinions though.

The young earth creationists I've had experience with are very adamant that the earth is only 10,000 years old and anyone who believes differently is going to hell. That is why I was talking about 10 yr generations. It was my mistake for assuming you believed the same thing.

Some Christians are narrowed minded..only a very small portion of them. Real Christians are open minded, accepting and forgiving people. A lot of people claim to be Christian yet are living hypocritical lives.

So I was wondering if everyone's definition of narrow-mindedness is on par.

If I said, in the most respectful and kind way, that according to the belief of Christianity, all other religions are wrong. Is that what we are defining as narrow-mindedness?

Narrow-mindedness can be a good thing when it pertains to your eternal destination. Are Christians narrow-minded for believing in salvation, and further, for believing in a free salvation? The answer is yes. As such, I believe it is illogical to reject the gospel, and I'm curious to hear why it might not be logical to accept it.

Jesus said,

"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light," (Matthew 11:28-30).

We are all carrying burdens. The burden to find happiness, the burden to succeed, the burden to survive, the burden for meaningful relationships; but most basically, we have the burden to know God. All of this is fulfilled in a relationship with Christ.

Sure there is hardship in Christianity, however Christians have a promise of blessing and comfort in hardship -- the assurance of eternal life with God. Salvation in terms of other faiths is taught as unknowable until you die. That's the worst time to find out.

The message of Christianity is that salvation is knowable because of God's assurance through faith in the redemption by Christ. I'm sure people have many reasons for rejecting this, but it seems illogical to me.

edit: (typo)

play4fun : From what I'm reading, it seems more or less reference to being like the churches in the early decades of rock music. You know, the days when it was viewed as God's loving justice or something when they kicked out someone with hair longer than what they believed was allowed for males? All religions teach to believe all but the religion practiced is false.

KlawedFlaw : My question is more on the topic of salvation and worldview. If a Christian were to say that the beliefs of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc are wrong, would that be considered narrow-minded. If so, should Christians have that mindset.

I agree with tRIUNE, for in this topic, it should, because you are believing this to be reality.

NO CHRISTIANS R NOT NARROW MINDED!