lol, thanks for finally getting this up.
As play4fun said, I'll be more than happy to answer any questions you may have about our faith .

This is a really good thread. I too might have some answers if you got the questions.

Yay!!! I heard this was gonna come up. Nice job. Now let's hope people actually read the stickies -.-

all Christians do not share this opinion, i was raised christian and will now show u a different christian opinion.

play4fun said: So we looked at 4 of the 10 so far? How did you do? If you are guilty of all of these that are listed, in reality, you are not a good person

In the bible David committed adultery, and had a man killed but because he tried to do good and tried his best to be good god called him a man after his own heart.

play4fun said:You might be thinking, “wait a minute, are you saying that no one is good?” Yes. Even Jesus told a rich young ruler that “…No one is good—except God alone.” (Luke 18:19) By that standard, everyone is guilty. So this is the bad news. One of God’s attributes is that He must be Just and Righteous, or else He would not be God. And a just judge (Psalm 9:8; 7:11; Acts 17:31) would not let criminals go unpunished. So since we are all guilty of breaking His laws (Romans 3:23), we all should be going to hell. We sin, and “sin IS lawlessness” (1 John 3:4)

well correct me if i am wrong, but wasn't there a criminal crucified with Jesus who asked what heaven was like and he said not to worry that he will be there? so obviously someone who does something bad is not automatically punished.

play4fun said: That should greatly concern us, because what He is doing is right. We deserve hell. But God is also a God of Love, and God does not want us to go to hell. What did God do so that you would not go to hell? Jesus Christ, God Himself, came to this earth and in demonstrating His love, died on the cross to pay for sins of all of the people in the world, and 3 days later defeated death and rose again to offer us eternal life. “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.” (Isaiah 53:5)
thats about the only thing i agree with you about.

play4fun says: Some Common Objections (will be edited when more objections come up):
I don’t believe in God.

It does not matter whether you believe God exists or not. If this is true, you would still be going to hell if you die in your sins.

That is not my God. My god is a god of love and would never send anyone to hell.

Do you know what you just did? You have broken the second of the Ten Commandments: You should not make yourself a graven image.

I know I’ve done wrong, but I also did good things too, more good than bad.

That would not work, even in our human court system. You tell the judge, “Judge, I may have killed this woman, but I only did it once. I also volunteer in this disaster shelter for 9 years every day.” The judge would not let you go. You still need to pay the fine

Nice way to use the most ridiculous arguments ever. if someone doesn't believe in god then they don't believe, it is not any persons place to condemn them or to say where they are going (judge not lest ye be judged) also the whole idol thing was about a golden cow made by the jewish people, and idol is an image and like it or not everyone who believes in this has an image of god in their minds (how he acts,thinks,looks,talks.). and now onto the murder thing, so lets say i become a millionaire, and i donate a lot of money to different things, saved 200 million people, end world hunger, never killed anyone, and cure all diseases, am i still going to hell? thats about how extreme your argument is about murder compared to good people with faults.

EDIT: so to finish up my statement, i think it shouldn't matter what you believe as long as u try and be a good person, and i don't believe in degrading or condemning those who think different.

metal572 : That is, unfortunately, and no offense intended, but that's not a Christian mindset you just showed:
David did commit adultery, but do you remember how he payed? His first child with Bathsheba died. And if you read his prayer in Psalms, you know he repented. That's why he's called a man after God's own heart.

The criminal went to heaven because he believed in his heart... because he figured out who Jesus was and what He was doing.

Sadly, those are arguments used to say they don't need to accept Christ.
They are creating idols. God does condemn people. The phrase "My God" sums it up pretty nicely: it is "their God" because that's not really God, He's not like that, He does condemn people. As for your example; even if you did all that, if you didn't accept Christ, you would go to Hell. Plain and simple. Even with all that good stuff, the guy in your example still sinned at one point in his life, everyone has. No getting around it.

You summary is as non-Christian as it gets. No, we're not supposed to judge, but that means don't call out individuals like "you're horrible, you're going to Hell!" Getting them to realize that Hell is what they deserve by presenting the Gospel is in no way wrong. You can't be a good person. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Sorry, but it's inevitable: You don't accept Christ, you go to Hell. It's harsh, but it's the truth, and people need the truth.

metal572 : I will respond some of what you said. Yellow is your statements, green is my response.

"In the bible David committed adultery, and had a man killed but because he tried to do good and tried his best to be good god called him a man after his own heart" That is true that God calls him a man after his own heart. However, it is not because he was a good person. If you read the book of Psalms, many of what David wrote was sorrowful repentance, of how sinful he is, and humbly coming to God for forgiveness. He did not talk about his own goodness, because he knows that, compare to God, he was not even close.

"well correct me if i am wrong, but wasn't there a criminal crucified with Jesus who asked what heaven was like and he said not to worry that he will be there? so obviously someone who does something bad is not automatically punished."
bigNATE is right on his response, but let's look at the verse itself (notice the comparison between the 2 criminals):
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:39-40)
Can you see the difference? He is talking about he deserves the punishment on the cross, and he is looking to Jesus for his place in heaven.

After talking about grace, you said "thats about the only thing i agree with you about"
if you agree with that, then you would agree with the sentences before. Jesus said this. "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Mark 2:17) If we are good, there is no point of a savior. Unless we understand our sinfulness, Jesus dying on the cross would not make sense if you can just try to be good and go to heaven.

"if someone doesn't believe in god then they don't believe, it is not any persons place to condemn them or to say where they are going (judge not lest ye be judged)"
Well now this is interesting, because I did not make these claims. Look at what Jesus said: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (John 3:18) "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)

"also the whole idol thing was about a golden cow made by the jewish people, and idol is an image and like it or not everyone who believes in this has an image of god in their minds (how he acts,thinks,looks,talks.)."
So, if you think that God is evil, would that be ok? The way God is like is not the way we see it, but the way he is revealed in the Bible. If you make an image of saying that God would not let someone go to hell, you are imagining a God to suit yourself. Saying that God is all condemning and would not let anyone to go to heaven would be the same thing, it's idolatry.

"and now onto the murder thing, so lets say i become a millionaire, and i donate a lot of money to different things, saved 200 million people, end world hunger, never killed anyone, and cure all diseases, am i still going to hell?"
A lot of our sins may seem petty or small. But let's think about lying for a second. If you lie to your little brother, what would he do? Absolutely nothing (or tell on you). If you lied to your parents, they would probably ground you. If you lied to your teacher, then there would be detention. If you lied to the president, that would be deemed treason! Same sin, different consequences. Why? because it is directed to different levels of people. All our sin is no different from each other, because all of them are sinning against God.

Also, we talked about how God is a just judge, as it said in scripture. A just judge would not let someone go just because he did more good than bad. If God judges Hitler, you would say that he deserve hell because of what he did. So do we. We are no different. We all still sin.

"I think it shouldn't matter what you believe as long as u try and be a good person, and i don't believe in degrading or condemning those who think different."
We are not condemning people. Those standards are pointed at me too. In fact, the purpose of the law "was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith." Our church fathers know that before we can go to the cross, we must understand our sinfulness. Then we can come to the cross. And what the Bible says is that no one is good, even Jesus affirmed it. and also in Romans. And Romans also made it clear that those who are in Jesus Christ would not be condemned (Romans 8:1)In fact, if you look at the first 4 chapters of Romans, the first 3 was condemning condemning condemning, and then in chapter 4, it talks about Abraham was deemed righteous through faith in God.

"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5) It is all over the place. I mentioned Ephesians 2 also. It is so clear that it is through faith in Jesus and not by our works that we would go to heaven.

Just curious, what are you raised? Because this is the actual gospel itself. Any Christian would know this and agree to this.

bigNATE : DUDE, thank you for reminding me about Psalm 51. I should put this on the thread as a model of a repentant prayer.

Also, for your last statement, I would word it as that if we do not receive Christ, we would have to pay our fine on our own, which no one can.

play4fun : Thanks, I was trying to find a better wording... it just came out better when I was blunt .

bigNATE : "That is, unfortunately, and no offense intended, but that's not a Christian mindset you just showed:" ok first of all just because you say no offense doesn't mean it isn't offensive. second of all, who are you to tell me if i am believing in my religion the wrong way? Did i at any point tell you that you didn't think like a christian because you disagree with how i read the scripture? no not once.

metal572 : Alright, first of all, even if by "no offense", it doesn't make it not offensive, bigNATE says that in order to say that he isn't TRYING to offend you, so don't just lash out at him for saying "no offense." He meant well.
Second, refer to play4fun's entire response to your argument please.
And, there is a way for you to be wrong about your religion. There's this thing called doctrine. Christianity has already established a certain doctrine about the gospel. The Catholic Inquisition killed many because of going against church doctrine, or heresy. Now, I'm not saying I agree with that fact that they kill off many "heretics" because they were misguided. But originally the Inquisition was a just system used to find heretics and lead them back to the faith. They were concerned with the salvation of the heretics.
Alright alright, I'm not even Catholic, so you might be asking what does this even have to do with anything. All I'm trying to say is, being wrong about Christianity IS possible. You can still commit heresy, even after the Inquisition ended because it was so wrongly used. In the end, it won't matter what you THINK, because you'll still face consequences if you're wrong.
I've used this analogy hundreds of times now. But I'll say it again: Imagine yourself standing in the middle of a highway. You say "I don't believe in traffic." If you don't believe in traffic, does that mean you'll be totally safe standing in the middle of a highway? NO! You'll get hit by a car or worse! You can believe in something as hard as you want, but that won't make it right or true. That's what faith is all about; there's a huge difference between faith and superstition.
Look, if you're gonna disagree with this, fine, but it's your OPINION. This thread is illustrating the gospel as FACT, not opinion. The gospel is not condemning people. It's trying to bring them back to Christ. Informing people about Jesus is doing them a favor, not judging them and condemning them. It's telling them that Jesus has died for our sins so that we can obtain salvation.
One more thing. You've used one of the most overused arguments ever with that whole "good person thing." Like, "what if I did all these good deeds and never did anything wrong" nonsense.
play4fun just covered that. He covered that since this thread STARTED by presenting the gospel. The gospel says that ALL people fall short. NO ONE deserves salvation. We don't live up to God's standards by breaking ANY of the Ten Commandments. And that's why Jesus came. To give us that salvation, because alone, we can't obtain it. You agreed to that yourself. If we could just do good works to gain eternal life, then there would be no point in Jesus coming and sacrificing His life on the cross for our sins. That's why the gospel is how it is.

mdynasty926 : lol, you beat me to it.
metal572 : By saying "no offense", I acknowledged that it might sound offensive, but I'm being blunt and honest here: the things you were saying contradicted everything play4fun pointed out from scripture. Meaning, if you actually believe what you were saying... you aren't truly following Christ... I don't mean to sound rude, but I'm being honest here. If you disagree with this stuff as presented, you disagree with the Gospel... and that's a non-Christian response.

bigNATE : yes because as everyone knows there is only one way to interpret the scripture
The bible may be the word of god but the meaning of the words are interpreted by man and ,as i am sure you know, the bible is not plain black and white on a lot of things.

metal572 : But then that just goes back to the whole right and wrong thing. There is a right way to interpret scripture and there is a wrong way to interpret scripture.

mdynasty926 : and who decided that? and who decides what is the right way? I have seen some stupid things in my life but people saying that religion which is interpreted every day isn't allowed to be interpreted any way but theirs i just have to step back in shock. do you know how many churches interpret the bible differently? some churches don't think there should be music in them cus the bible says to sing to god but it doesn't mention music. some churches think that if you can hold snakes and not get bite then you must be a good christian. If you think there is only one way to believe in the christian religion then you need to look around you and see that is absolutely not true.

metal572 : No you need to understand what I'm saying. You're saying there's lots of different interpretations but that doesn't mean that they're all true. OHH no. That's like saying there's lots of religions so everyone of them is true. That's not true at all. You can't say that. There is a right and wrong way to interpret the Bible. It's not like a piece of art. It's supposed to be for reference.
Like what you just said. Do you truly think that churches can't have music because it doesn't mention music(and actually, I think it does )? Do you really think you can be known as a good Christian if you can hold snakes and not get bitten? It's ridiculous. That's almost like postmodernism.

The scripture is to be its own interpreter, or rather the Spirit speaking in it. Nothing can cut the diamond but the diamond; nothing can interpret scripture but scripture. The sun best discovers itself by its own beams; the scripture interprets itself to the understanding. But the question is concerning hard places of scripture, where the weak Christian is ready to wade beyond his depth; who shall interpret here?

The church of God has appointed some to expound and interpret scripture; therefore he has given gifts to men. The several pastors of churches, like bright constellations, give light to dark scriptures. Mal 2: 7. 'The priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth.’

But this is to pin our faith upon men.

We are to receive nothing for truth but what is agreeable to the Word. As God has given to his ministers gifts for interpreting obscure places, so he has given to his people so much of the spirit of discerning, that they can tell (at least in things necessary to salvation) what is consonant to scripture, and what is not. I Cor 12: 10. 'To one is given a spirit of prophecy, to another discerning of spirits.' God has endued his people with such a measure of wisdom and discretion, that they can discern between truth and error, and judge what is sound and what is spurious. Acts 17: 2: 'The Bereans searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.’ They weighed the doctrine they heard, whether it was agreeable to scripture, though Paul and Silas were their teachers. 2 Tim 3: 16.

metal572 : It is funny how you did not respond to my post about your objections. I even gave you a question in the end, because I want to know what background you were raised.

First of, you keep quoting "Judge not lest ye be judge." ummm, do you really understand what Jesus meant by that? http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html

Anyways, the topics that you talked about that different denominations have different viewpoints are "secondary issues," meaning both sides different viewpoints on the topic, but it would not affect their salvation. The use or non-use of music does not affect a person's salvation, the different beliefs of how the last days of earth would happen does not affect a person's salvation, the different beliefs of how church should be done does not affect a person's salvation.

However, all Christian understand the gospel the same way. This is a core theology that basically DEFINES Christianity: Lutherans, Baptist, Methodist, Reformed, you name it. They all agree to the gospel.

But I want to hear what you think scripture says that supports what you believe. How bout you show me in scripture where does it say that "as long as you try to do good, you will go to heaven, and it does not matter what you believes". I already gave my support through scripture, so I want to see where you would find that to support your beliefs. And I want to know what think the gospel means.

play4fun : I never said there was any scripture saying if you are a good person that is all that matters, that is my opinion and i did not try and say that was in the bible. I was raised christian, i have a ton of bibles in my house, and i was raised to have good morals. also each denomination does not read it the same way, i can tell you that from just visiting multiple churches. I do not see what my background has to do with it tho as i already said i was raised christian. what was meant by "judge not lest ye be judged" is that it is not up to man to say who is going to hell. There are plenty of examples of god being merciful in the bible (such as preventing Abraham from killing his son or only out casting Moses instead of smiting him), and like I said, EVERYONE and i mean EVERYONE (who believes in this) has a mental image of how god looks or thinks or acts. so by saying you cant even have a mental image of god or it is an idol then everyone who believes in it would be guilty of that. I am done with this conversation if you want to continue it we can talk one on one thru either PM or chat.

Ok, then I'll just continue this conversation with metal572 through PM. Since we don't want to fill his PM soooo many message. I'll just talk to metal572. If something similar happens to a different person, someone else can have dibs to PM that person

This shouldnt be a sticky as it is obviously not what all christians think so people who are non christians reading this shouldnt take it as such.
How is one bunch of christians allowed to say to another christian that they are in the wrong, isnt that just judging them?
Considering it is all just beliefs and opinions, none of them can be said to be "right" or "wrong", you just think that's the case.
But unless some god comes down from the sky and says to everyone "this is what the facts are" then no one knows.
And dont pull that nonsense about "but that's what the bible is for" because if that was the case then there wouldnt be so many interpretations of it and no one would be able to say that it is wrong.

mdynasty926 says "You're saying there's lots of different interpretations but that doesn't mean that they're all true"
While that is true, it doesnt mean your interpretation is the truth.
I've said it before, unless one can ask the author the meaning then no one knows which interpretation is correct.
And that's even assuming that there even is an interpretation that is correct.