Saying what is and isn't feminism seems like a waste of time since everyone seems to have their own definition of it and practice it differently. There is no real feminism

Zlinqx : "Full control of their own body" means "take something valuable and exclusive to women and throw it away"? I'm sorry, but being a woman is not a inconvenience. I refuse to believe that.

In the case of an employer, that's not the fault of the woman that the employer is a jerk? And would he want to continue paying her lower wages for equal work? of course. The employer hates pregnant women. The employer can't employ pregnant women. He needs women to be more like men. The employer says "your pregnancy inconveniences me, so you should stop being a healthy woman."

And my position this whole time has been to not make women into men. Abortions sacrifice their womanhood for other gains. To be pregnant is a womanly thing. They don't need to be housewives. Being a housewife isn't necessarily womanly. It's just sometimes a choice made. Men stay at home too. However, men can't choose to be pregnant without major surgery that doesn't even exist yet. Pregnancy is unique to women, and ever thinking pregnancy is inconvenient is to believe that being a woman is inconvenient. That's just not true and certainly does not value women for being women.

You should just say that being a woman isn't to be valued, just like being a man isn't to be valued. You should say they are both valueless. I would disagree entirely, but that would be your strongest argument against me.

you have to be doing this on purpose, how did you get any of that out of what he said???????
Christs sake, you're taking what you want to hear and putting it in his mouth. 

Cap'n : What about abortion honors womanhood? My whole claim from the beginning has been that it doesn't, that abortion is anti-woman.

simple: it honors a woman's right to choose what SHE wants for HER body. 

Txgangsta : Again you seem to misunderstand my viewpoint. I feel like you're taking things I've never said out of my mouth. I've stated several times at this point that I'm not pro choice because I find the biology cumbersome, I just have a different set of priorities. Above all else I'm valuing the will of the individual and I think that's also how to best value womanhood (and manhood), in stead of holding everyone to some sort of set ideal of what is womanhood and manhood. I also find pregnancy can be a great thing to experience, but only if a person feels ready for it.

Cap'n :
Zlinqx :

I do not value a will that demeans one's self and others. Abortion is demeaning to women because, quite literally, it takes something unique to women throws it away as garbage.

Moreover, abortions are often the result of social pressure, not out of a free choice. Children are expensive, baby-daddy doesn't want it, it would be an embarrassment to the rest of the family, etc. That's not a free choice. That's coercion. And it should be dismissed.

Txgangsta : I'm personally against abortion for religious reasons. I hope and pray that my future wife will never be put into a situation where abortion is being considered, but if she's in that much danger, then I won't stop it. My personal view on abortion aside, I don't think it's in my power to stop women who actually want/need it from getting it.

"Children are expensive"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean the mother cares so much about their potential children that they want them to grow up in a household with a decent amount of money?

And how is abortion demeaning to women? Having a baby is a pretty big deal, and they should at least be able to choose whether or not they have him/her.

Social pressure goes the other way as well. Women who get abortions are often looked down upon because they were "selfish" or whatever it may be. It's considered more of an embarrassment to actually get an abortion rather than to have a child. I've never seen someone getting hate for having children. "Hey Mary, ha ha ha you have kids! Ha ur such a scrub!!!" That sounds ridiculous lol.

I'm assuming you're a Christian. In my opinion, it's better to set an example by leading rather than to force your views down others' throats, but that's just me. It's only gonna turn them off even more.

As a woman, I`m really curious how you as a male, can determine what offends me as a woman? In fact, all of your points you've made so far have done just the opposite of what your goal intention seems to be.

Attributing feminism to having children is like saying that  "meninism", if you will (or men's rights) is devalued when a man isn't the breadwinner in the home. The traits you describe remind me of a woman's place back in the 1940's - women can be more than just what their bodies can do, and it's just the same for men. Men can be stay-at-home Dads, and women are slowly becoming more and more, the bread winners of the house.  We live in an incredible age.

No matter your stance on abortion (I'm prolife), I have to say that it is not offensive towards feminism. In fact, it embodies part of what feminism is all about - choice. The power to choose, and not have the decision to be already made.

plasticinsanity : If you think that because I'm male, I cannot have an opinion, I must tell you sexism isn't tolerated. If you're telling me that I don't know what is good for women because "good" is only about what people want, you're simply mistaken. What is good for people is known logically and empirically. So, my concern is not what does offend you, but what should offend you. You should be offended by the inherit anti-feminism of abortion.

Txgangsta : I didn't say that at all, and I'd kindly like to ask you not to put words in my mouth. Thank-you. I didn't say what is good, I said what offends. As a woman, abortion doesn't offend me. I know feminists who wouldn't agree with you. I'm curious if you've spoken to any feminists about this.

Feminism is an incredible and powerful movement. It was an (at the time) radical idea born out of oppression, to give women something wonderful - power. Women have been campaigning for their own sexual reproduction rights for years now, which is why I am confused on how you think abortion is offensive to feminism. In fact, it's the opposite. If a woman chooses not to have an abortion, that's feminism. If she chooses to, that's also part of feminism. The whole point is that the woman has a choice now, after centuries of women having choices be made for them.. Women have protested for reproductive rights before, and they will continue to do so - until all women have a choice. That's feminism.

plasticinsanity : if feminism is only about choice, it's not feminism. It's just Nietzschian philosophy. Feminism must be about promotion of femininity, not simply will to power.

Txgangsta :

Why? Feminism is about equality of the sexes, how does promoting the idea of what is "feminine" help that. I doubt one would be able to define what femininity is in the first place because perceptions change over time and if anything it's likely to work as a setback because many people use "praising feminity" as an excuse for wanting to go back to living by the old traditional gender roles. In stead of empowering women, it serves to limit them by forcing them to live by a certain mould or face public condemnation/exclusion. It wouldn't make sense.

Feminism is not about advocating a certain way of life, it's about giving people the choice to live life as they want to. WIthout being condemned if you chose/chose not to live by these gender roles.

Txgangsta : Promoting femininity? The concept of that scares me. It sounds like a male perspective from the early 1900's, when abortion was looked at as being against womanhood, back when a woman's role was looked at as being a homemaker and child-bearer (which to be honest, sounds kind of like the point you're trying to make).  Feminism has been the decades long fight to crawl out from underneath that umbrella.

Zlinqx : It is about equality, yes, but what kind of equality? Equality of choice (plasticinsanity seems to espouse this) isn't really promoting feminism, it only expands Nietzschian philosophy. What real feminism promotes is equality of respect or value. Being masculine is equal to being feminine in that they should be respected and valued equally. Giving women a choice to not be women is allowing them to believe their own nature is sub-par.

If you knew my girlfriend, you would know I don't think that women should just be baby-makers and maids. She's about to join the Navy, will have multiple college degrees, and she doesn't even want kids. But she's still a woman. And I encourage her to believe that her womanhood matters. This extends into all aspects of her life, including our current topic of abortion.

plasticinsantiy: As I said above, I'm definitely not promoting women to stay at home with uncut hair, barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. However, I don't know the arguments given by anti-feminists in the 1900s. I might share somethings with them, though definitely not all. I certainly think voting rights extend toward adult individuals (19th amendment) and not the male head of households (original constitutional design). When I say "womanly", I mean a heavy biological connotation. I don't mean the antiquated place in society.

Txgangsta : "Giving women a choice to not be women is allowing them to believe their own nature is sub-par? ----How so?

Everything you described above seems to lean more towards femininity, not feminism. The two are very different things.

plasticinsanity : Giving a child the choice between pudding and ice cream allows the kid to choose whichever he thinks is better. While arbitrary, the choice allows for a weighing of values, and the kid values one more than the other. Perhaps if he only had ice cream for weeks, he might want a change of pace and choose something different, but that again is a value judgment between the two things.

Less arbitrarily, asking people to choose between masculine and feminine traits is prompting them to evaluate which one is better. Unlike pudding and ice cream, I think there is moral weight upon the evaluation here. Truly, there is no better choice and the question shouldn't be tolerated. Asking someone if it is more inherently valuable to be black or white is equally ridiculous; neither is more valuable. All aspects of femininity are valuable, and never should be thought to be sub-par. Of course, I think this includes pregnancy.

If feminism is not to promote femininity as equally valuable, what value does it have?

While I agree that giving femininity equal value is important, I would think the concept of feminism is more about giving women the same rights, advantages, and perceptions of them in society that men have. An obvious example would be the wage gap. 

Having the choice at all is freedom, whether they have any intentions of utilizing the option or not. Since men in the majority of the world have been the ones to be in power over legislation, courts, and society in general, feminists want the freedom to choose for themselves, the same opportunities, and to be just as respected by society as a whole.

Just because one person chooses one route, and another chooses the other, doesn't necessarily make either one of them wrong or either of the choices inferior. Part of the human experience, and arguably the meaning of life, is to find our own path and pursue what makes us happy. People trying to take that freedom away, or never giving it to begin with, is one of the reasons I believe they're metaphorically fighting in the first place. 

The value comes from trying to promote Women as equal, not just their femininity. 
(At least that's my interpretation of it anyway. I'm not a woman so I can't really speak on their behalf.)

Though I'm curious as to why you believe that giving a woman the choice of abortion forces her to decide between masculine or feminine traits for herself? A woman can be extremely feminine and be pro-choice, while an extremely masculine one is pro-life, or vice versa. I just don't see the connection between the beliefs on abortion itself and the traits an individual would believe to be better for themselves?

Abortion should be allowed. What if the woman doesn't want the baby? Rather than have a give birth and then throw it away moment, abortion should be free to reduce that problem.

Pokemonfan1000 : So they should throw it away earlier rather than later? That doesn't solve any problems.

Mynamescox44 : If femininity is just about choices, it's not femininism. That's just an expansion of Nietzschian philosophy. There's nothing about choice that is inherently feminine. Real feminism, as I've titled the thread, is about honoring women as women. "Choice" alone doesn't do that. "Giving women the same rights as men" only makes women into men. That disrespects femininity as unvaluable, and that position is intolerable. But moreso, men don't have the right to abort? So that is an unequal right already.

If you were to read the post, you would know I am arguing that abortion is necessarily anti-woman and does not belong in feminism. Abortion is 1) primarily used to kill girls in the womb because families want a male first, 2) is often pressured by the baby-daddy, 3) was legalized by men.

Conceptually, pregnancy is a female-only trait, and to be opposed to pregnancy is to think that some female traits are bad. That isn't tolerable.