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The Problem of Evil
12-11-12 02:15 PM
Oldschool41 is Offline
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First off sorry if the title offends anyone.
Secondly I didn't know whether this would go under Christian or Debate as The Problem of Evil counts as both in a way. So if this is in the wrong place then please move it by all means. Finally to the main point... The Problem of Evil. If Evil exists in the world then God must no exist. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that statement during arguments about faith. I will admit that its a good question to ask, but how does one go about to answer the Problem of Evil argument? So this is pretty much what the thread is built for. How would you counter the argument made by someone that evil exists, therefore God must not exist? Edit: People might have a hard time putting together an arugment so I will add another question... Do you believe that because Evil exists in the world, that God can't exist/isn't as omniescent, omnipotent, all-seeing, all-knowing etc. First off sorry if the title offends anyone.
Secondly I didn't know whether this would go under Christian or Debate as The Problem of Evil counts as both in a way. So if this is in the wrong place then please move it by all means. Finally to the main point... The Problem of Evil. If Evil exists in the world then God must no exist. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that statement during arguments about faith. I will admit that its a good question to ask, but how does one go about to answer the Problem of Evil argument? So this is pretty much what the thread is built for. How would you counter the argument made by someone that evil exists, therefore God must not exist? Edit: People might have a hard time putting together an arugment so I will add another question... Do you believe that because Evil exists in the world, that God can't exist/isn't as omniescent, omnipotent, all-seeing, all-knowing etc. |
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12-11-12 03:13 PM
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Well God is kind of in a lose lose situation. You see, if He lets people make their own decisions, everyone asks why God let's bad things happen. Yet if He doesn't let people make their own decisions, everyone says it isn't fair for God to orchestrate our lives.
As for the question you ask, it is a difficult one to answer well. I say evil can exist because God doesn't want to force people to live for Him, or do what He wants them to. In all honesty, that wouldn't be very fair of Him. And so evil comes into existence when we misuse the power of choice and will that God gives us. I will be the first to tell you, I don't understand everything about Him or why some things happen, but that doesn't discredit Him or mean that He doesn't know what He's doing, because if we face the facts, we have to admit that we don't know everything, and we would be arrogant to think that there is no possibility of knowledge or understanding beyond what we can grasp as right or good. So yes, God can exist even though bad and evil things happen, and it doesn't mean He is unable to stop it, but that it happens for reasons previously stated in this post. I hope this answer is sufficient and doesn't come across as overpowering or belittling. As for the question you ask, it is a difficult one to answer well. I say evil can exist because God doesn't want to force people to live for Him, or do what He wants them to. In all honesty, that wouldn't be very fair of Him. And so evil comes into existence when we misuse the power of choice and will that God gives us. I will be the first to tell you, I don't understand everything about Him or why some things happen, but that doesn't discredit Him or mean that He doesn't know what He's doing, because if we face the facts, we have to admit that we don't know everything, and we would be arrogant to think that there is no possibility of knowledge or understanding beyond what we can grasp as right or good. So yes, God can exist even though bad and evil things happen, and it doesn't mean He is unable to stop it, but that it happens for reasons previously stated in this post. I hope this answer is sufficient and doesn't come across as overpowering or belittling. |
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12-11-12 09:23 PM
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I would respond that in a fallen world with a sinful nature and free will, bad things are bound to happen. It doesn't mean God doesn't exist. It means we don't obey him. It sounds like this goes into the question; "why does God allow bad things to happen to people?" or if he's loving, why does he allow it. It is one of those questions that would take a long explanation from the Holy Spirit to fully answer. Because all we know is that its for our benefit. Its okay that we don't get it. He's obviously has been around for eternity which is longer than we have. He knows more than we do, which means he's smarter and he has a greater understanding of things than us. He also sees what we don't. Common logic suggests that with credentials like that, he would probably do things a little differently than we would and probably in ways we don't even understand. Maybe not even see. But that's really about what you could say. |
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12-13-12 04:39 PM
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The reason why there is evil because The serpent (Satan) Attempted Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of knowledge. Now, for the bad things...Well. People started to deceive god. Disobey him, Make lies about him. If there's no satan, Then we wouldn't need no god. If we had no god, Satan wouldn't exist. Now, Ur gunna say, Why did god created satan If he knew he was gunna rebel? Well, You know the story about Lucifer. He made good and evil to test us. So, Yeah, This sinful world isn't home. Heaven is. Until meantime, God is giving people time to repent. Remember, He made good and evil to test our faith!! To test if we really love him. So yeah, I'm sorry If the things I said isn't topic related... God bless you - Amen Now, for the bad things...Well. People started to deceive god. Disobey him, Make lies about him. If there's no satan, Then we wouldn't need no god. If we had no god, Satan wouldn't exist. Now, Ur gunna say, Why did god created satan If he knew he was gunna rebel? Well, You know the story about Lucifer. He made good and evil to test us. So, Yeah, This sinful world isn't home. Heaven is. Until meantime, God is giving people time to repent. Remember, He made good and evil to test our faith!! To test if we really love him. So yeah, I'm sorry If the things I said isn't topic related... God bless you - Amen |
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12-13-12 04:49 PM
Oldschool41 is Offline
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DwarvenKnuckleBuster : Good post overalll. Except for that part of God creating Satan, as I don't recall that God created Satan. Maybe a better choice of words would be better or I'm overstating your words. Still good post. DwarvenKnuckleBuster : Good post overalll. Except for that part of God creating Satan, as I don't recall that God created Satan. Maybe a better choice of words would be better or I'm overstating your words. Still good post. |
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12-13-12 04:52 PM
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Oldschool41 : Thanks, But, What do you mean? Satan is the personification of evil |
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12-13-12 08:00 PM
Oldschool41 is Offline
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DwarvenKnuckleBuster : Yes you are correct that Satan is the personification of evil. However God didn't create the devil, Lucifer became Satan by refusing to bow to man and rebelled against God. From that he was cast out and he fell from God's grace. God didn't have anything to do with Lucifer becoming the devil (one can debate that asking to bow too man that he did create the devil), Lucifer became the devil by his own accord. This is from what I think happened, my Christian theology is rusty at best so I could be wrong. DwarvenKnuckleBuster : Yes you are correct that Satan is the personification of evil. However God didn't create the devil, Lucifer became Satan by refusing to bow to man and rebelled against God. From that he was cast out and he fell from God's grace. God didn't have anything to do with Lucifer becoming the devil (one can debate that asking to bow too man that he did create the devil), Lucifer became the devil by his own accord. This is from what I think happened, my Christian theology is rusty at best so I could be wrong. |
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01-10-13 03:21 PM
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So God is being blamed for the evil in the world huh.(There is no argument or debate in my eyes because there is no ifs ands or buts about rather God exist or not God SURELY EXIST ). God sees all things and every single thing a person does or say doesn't escape Gods' notice. The problem with this type of logic is that a person is looking at it from a temporary point of view where as God sees things from an eternal perspective. They may ask this question as if they think God is letting people get away with evil( which also includes them as well ), but that's far from truth. Lets make this very clear God hates evil. I repeat God hates evil and one day there will be judgement. God knows those who would come to Him and those who would reject Him. Even before a person is born into the world He knows ultimately rather a person will accept Him or not. One day however, a separation will take place and He will separate those that belong to Him and those who follow satans' way. Those that are His will surely have life and those that are not will surely have death. Hopefully, this answer has provided some solutions for next time someone asks such a question. |
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Only humans can realy define what is evil anyway, so I think to say that god does not exist merely because of some standard we have created among us would be flawed in my opinion. Especialy since these standards are not universal among mankind. You could easyly say roses are red, violets are blue, therefore god dosent exist. |
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01-11-13 08:03 PM
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I personally believe people make their personality. So it's their choice to be "evil." Singelli : I CALL YOU TO THE STAND! This'll be interesting to see what you think. Singelli : I CALL YOU TO THE STAND! This'll be interesting to see what you think. |
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01-11-13 08:14 PM
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BluemageKyle : "Do you believe that because Evil exists in the world, that God can't exist/isn't as omniescent, omnipotent, all-seeing, all-knowing etc." I do not believe this at all. God gave us a choice and we chose to sin. God did not make us robotic slaves. Think about it this way: cold is the absence of all heat. If only heat existed, we would have no concept of 'cold', and there'd be no need for a distinction between hot and cold. Evil is the absence of good. If only good or evil existed, the other would not be worth noting. It is through the absence of good that we recognize the two sides. The fact that evil exists in no way insinuates that God does not. Evil exists because people CHOOSE to be evil. We each have our own free will, and the flesh is naturally tended towards sin and evil thought. That's why having a relationship with God is a choice, and not something we are forced into. I probably didn't word this the best way, but my brain is fried from grading finals. Please forgive me. "Do you believe that because Evil exists in the world, that God can't exist/isn't as omniescent, omnipotent, all-seeing, all-knowing etc." I do not believe this at all. God gave us a choice and we chose to sin. God did not make us robotic slaves. Think about it this way: cold is the absence of all heat. If only heat existed, we would have no concept of 'cold', and there'd be no need for a distinction between hot and cold. Evil is the absence of good. If only good or evil existed, the other would not be worth noting. It is through the absence of good that we recognize the two sides. The fact that evil exists in no way insinuates that God does not. Evil exists because people CHOOSE to be evil. We each have our own free will, and the flesh is naturally tended towards sin and evil thought. That's why having a relationship with God is a choice, and not something we are forced into. I probably didn't word this the best way, but my brain is fried from grading finals. Please forgive me. |
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01-12-13 01:11 PM
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"How would you counter the argument made by someone that evil exists, therefore God must not exist?" The best way to counter this argument is to point out that it is a logical fallacy. The best way to counter this argument is to point out that it is a logical fallacy. |
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01-12-13 09:01 PM
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smotpoker86 : Care to explain how its a logical fallacy (for those who don't know what a logical fallacy is) smotpoker86 : Care to explain how its a logical fallacy (for those who don't know what a logical fallacy is) |
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01-13-13 02:45 AM
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Oldschool41 : A logical fallacy is in simple terms just an unreasonable argument. In this case it comes to a conclusion that can't exactly be pinpointed with the given evidence. If someone were to say "Evil (or good) exists therefore God does exist" it would be equally faulty. Really the main problem with the argument is that it comes to an absolute conclusion. The existence of evil actions doesn't necessarily prove or disprove a God but it does allow you to come to some indefinite conclusions or possibilities. A similar but more logically sound argument should look more like this. Evil exists, therefore: A) God doesn't exist and evil just happens B) God does exist and allows evil to exist C) God does exist and has no control over the existence of evil *Note- This example/argument likely has other possibilities and could be expanded further. I'm just trying to show the uncertainty that is inherent. Of course this is dependent on how "God" is defined (and probably "evil" too). If someone's particular belief was that God didn't allow evil actions to occur than the existence of evil would more likely than not disprove their God. This was a bit longer than I expected but I hope it helps you understand what I originally meant. Really the main problem with the argument is that it comes to an absolute conclusion. The existence of evil actions doesn't necessarily prove or disprove a God but it does allow you to come to some indefinite conclusions or possibilities. A similar but more logically sound argument should look more like this. Evil exists, therefore: A) God doesn't exist and evil just happens B) God does exist and allows evil to exist C) God does exist and has no control over the existence of evil *Note- This example/argument likely has other possibilities and could be expanded further. I'm just trying to show the uncertainty that is inherent. Of course this is dependent on how "God" is defined (and probably "evil" too). If someone's particular belief was that God didn't allow evil actions to occur than the existence of evil would more likely than not disprove their God. This was a bit longer than I expected but I hope it helps you understand what I originally meant. |
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01-13-13 07:28 AM
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Oldschool41 :
There are no conditions that say god will remove all evil so its presence dosent mean there isnt a god. You can prove many individual parts of religious texts wrong, but until you have proven the origin and invalidity of every sentence you havent definitively disproven god. Because it was written by man so the next argument would be it was human error, its been translated multiple times too so thats the next excuse. If there was decisive proof either way everyone would be either religious or atheist. reasoning: 1.God wants us to have free will 2.God is testing us 3.God is punishing us 4.God has forsaken us 5.God isn't real There are many more but those are the most common ones. As for question 2, il just refer to epicurus again, since that is my view in a nutshell. There are no conditions that say god will remove all evil so its presence dosent mean there isnt a god. You can prove many individual parts of religious texts wrong, but until you have proven the origin and invalidity of every sentence you havent definitively disproven god. Because it was written by man so the next argument would be it was human error, its been translated multiple times too so thats the next excuse. If there was decisive proof either way everyone would be either religious or atheist. reasoning: 1.God wants us to have free will 2.God is testing us 3.God is punishing us 4.God has forsaken us 5.God isn't real There are many more but those are the most common ones. As for question 2, il just refer to epicurus again, since that is my view in a nutshell. |
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smotpoker86 : Thank you for the explination. I just wanted to make sure that this was explained so that other Vizzed users know what your talking about. I believe a similar logical fallacy would be "I know that I know nothing at all" if I'm correct? thenumberone : Of course the arguement of Free Will and God is also subject to another debate. Interesting post overall. smotpoker86 : Thank you for the explination. I just wanted to make sure that this was explained so that other Vizzed users know what your talking about. I believe a similar logical fallacy would be "I know that I know nothing at all" if I'm correct? thenumberone : Of course the arguement of Free Will and God is also subject to another debate. Interesting post overall. |
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Oldschool41 : well sine everyone is stating the case for the negative I thought I'd just say there is a case for Evil People = No God GOD hates evil , GOD can not tollerate to exist where evil exists this is the whole reason that we as Christian must keep evil out of our life and so it is true. Evil people = No god within themselves or even Evil World = No GOD in the world Evil Organisation = no God in the organisation it would then only be a small "logical step to Evil = No GOD oh and then there's the question if GOD created everything then hoe could he not of created Evil,Satan or sin? Evil People = No God GOD hates evil , GOD can not tollerate to exist where evil exists this is the whole reason that we as Christian must keep evil out of our life and so it is true. Evil people = No god within themselves or even Evil World = No GOD in the world Evil Organisation = no God in the organisation it would then only be a small "logical step to Evil = No GOD oh and then there's the question if GOD created everything then hoe could he not of created Evil,Satan or sin? |
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Oldschool41 : I don't think that evil signifies that there is no god, however I do believe that if there were to be a god, it would have to be both good and evil. As described in the bible, god is all seeing and all powerful. God, in many religions, is considered to be knowing of everything. In order to be a perfect being, you would have to know all things, including good and evil. Perfection is something that can't truly exist, because in order to represent everything perfectly, one would have to also be imperfect. In order to create chaos, one must know chaos; in order to create evil, one must know evil. I'm not saying that there may not be things that we humans do not understand fully, or that some sort of god doesn't exist, but the Christian version of god is contradictory in many ways, and just doesn't seem to make any justifiable sense. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I am going to give some examples of what I mean, taken from the bible. We all know that god is displayed as good and righteous in the bible, and many people only seem to be willing to accept those passages alone. However, there are many instances where god displays such acts that would be completely unacceptable as a decent being. People seem to disregard these things, and I've never had anyone give me logical explanations for them. Traditional believers raise their children to be the same as them, often leaving children, especially the younger ones, missing the entirety of the bible. Not only that, but a person must be mature and old enough to understand what they are being taught, so that they may distinguish for themselves what they do or do not believe. Forcing a child to go to church or to only teach them certain things only builds false faith, because that faith is built upon what they have been taught, not what they discovered for themselves. This can cause confusion and identity issues later on in life. But anyway, on to the examples. Sexism: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3) "For the man is not of the woman;
Oldschool41 : I don't think that evil signifies that there is no god, however I do believe that if there were to be a god, it would have to be both good and evil. As described in the bible, god is all seeing and all powerful. God, in many religions, is considered to be knowing of everything. In order to be a perfect being, you would have to know all things, including good and evil. Perfection is something that can't truly exist, because in order to represent everything perfectly, one would have to also be imperfect. In order to create chaos, one must know chaos; in order to create evil, one must know evil. I'm not saying that there may not be things that we humans do not understand fully, or that some sort of god doesn't exist, but the Christian version of god is contradictory in many ways, and just doesn't seem to make any justifiable sense. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I am going to give some examples of what I mean, taken from the bible. We all know that god is displayed as good and righteous in the bible, and many people only seem to be willing to accept those passages alone. However, there are many instances where god displays such acts that would be completely unacceptable as a decent being. People seem to disregard these things, and I've never had anyone give me logical explanations for them. Traditional believers raise their children to be the same as them, often leaving children, especially the younger ones, missing the entirety of the bible. Not only that, but a person must be mature and old enough to understand what they are being taught, so that they may distinguish for themselves what they do or do not believe. Forcing a child to go to church or to only teach them certain things only builds false faith, because that faith is built upon what they have been taught, not what they discovered for themselves. This can cause confusion and identity issues later on in life. But anyway, on to the examples. Sexism: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3) "For the man is not of the woman;
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02-03-13 08:13 AM
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Here are my thoughts. This doesn't work for either side but I am just refuting the Evil people=no god argument. I think that without the evil in the world, there would be no way to distinguish what is happy and what is good and humans would live in constant continuity and nobody would be happy, and that suffering would be worse that the suffering brought about by evil. So, any smart omnipotent god would bring about the suffering, to sacrifice the few to save the happiness and lives of the many. So those are my thoughts, please don't flame. Ender44 So those are my thoughts, please don't flame. Ender44 |
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02-04-13 10:26 PM
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ender44 : "So, any smart omnipotent god would bring about the suffering, to sacrifice the few to save the happiness and lives of the many." It's not quite like that. God doesn't bring about suffering, otherwise he wouldn't be a pure and holy God. He may bring trials and tribulations that can be difficult, like trying to make a deadline for a huge project, but God doesn't give you anything you can't handle. We know that evil is in the world because ever since Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan, sin has been in human nature, and we tend to give into it. So it isn't that God makes others suffer, although we may face trials, it's just that we give into sin and cause our own downfall. Sorry if this post didn't really clear things up "So, any smart omnipotent god would bring about the suffering, to sacrifice the few to save the happiness and lives of the many." It's not quite like that. God doesn't bring about suffering, otherwise he wouldn't be a pure and holy God. He may bring trials and tribulations that can be difficult, like trying to make a deadline for a huge project, but God doesn't give you anything you can't handle. We know that evil is in the world because ever since Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan, sin has been in human nature, and we tend to give into it. So it isn't that God makes others suffer, although we may face trials, it's just that we give into sin and cause our own downfall. Sorry if this post didn't really clear things up |
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