"Separation of church and state" (sometimes "wall of separation between church and state") is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson

Thats a little extract i copied and pasted from wikipedia.


Iv been reading a lot of articles, im pretty glad that im not in a position to be effected by this tbh, its pretty bad, iv found a whole host of different graphs and figures which are pretty damning.

here we can see the general consensus of which groups most americans think dont represent there idea of america, and who they would most oppose there childs marriage to

http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2011/01/research-finds-atheists-hated-distrusted-minority-2/

here its declared that the only group disliked as much are rapists:
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Atheists+rapists+list+people+religious+believers+distrust+most+study+finds/5794699/story.html

here we can see the results of the gallup poll which asked people whether they would vote for a series of people, as can be seen, in the bottom running are atheists, even homosexuals are less disliked (and dont get me wrong, i think neither should be disliked)
http://www.data360.org/report_slides.aspx?Print_Group_Id=99

here is the same results in a text format which is somewhat easier to read, and contains percentages across voter types.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/26611/some-americans-reluctant-vote-mormon-72yearold-presidential-candidates.aspx#1
(if you look at page 2 of that you can see far more statistics

and this is just an article from the university of minesotaa, i like reading it.
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheitsHated.htm

I find it strange that people really care, its surely the policies that make for good candidates, not who they pray to/dont pray to.

I don't know why anyone likes or dislike someone for being religious or atheist. It seems like a very stupid part of a person to decide if they're likable or not. Of course there's the type that only ever talk about religion or hating/not believing in it, but I think most people just need to lighten up. When it comes to religion nowadays it seems like people take it as a personal offense if you don't agree and think exactly the same as them.

I'm atheist, and my whole family is Christian. Does that mean anything? No. To each our own. As long as you're a good person, it shouldn't really matter what your driving force for being a good person is.

It's also annoying that people feel threatened by atheists and are distrustful of them, because most atheists are completely respectable human beings, but have different views (usually more scientific/pro evolution, etc). And really, is that so bad? Is that really something that's terrible for America? I don't think so, and I don't see why it would be.

As for atheism tying into America, I don't mind that Christianity is the American religion. It's been that way for ages, and it's obnoxious that everyone else who comes to America is like "HEY, NOTICE ME! I LIVE HERE NOW TOO, RESPECT MY CULTURE AND WISHES!". It just creates problems. Ideally, I'd prefer that government and religion were completely separate entities. The government puts too much time and effort into trying to please everyone equally as far as religion goes instead of just getting crap done.

KG : well the us constitution is pretty clear that church and state are seperate, having in god we trust on the money is actually unconstitutional.
Its fine and well for individuals to practice any religion if they wish but religion shouldnt be advocated by the government, equally it shouldnt be required to get elected, however if people want to choose who to elect based on religion they do have the right to do that, it does seem ridiculous to me though.
I think the main objection (and falacy) is that an atheist has no guiding book that tells us what to do, hence we must have no morality, a claim which is easily blown out of the water.
Tolerance and understanding is the key to advancement of civilisation, hate and intolerance is the key to destruction, fundamentalism, fascism, corruption and crime.
Just to back the fact that atheists dont lack morales, in the usa the percentage of atheist inmates compared to there national numbers is lower than any religious group so its a bunk claim.
People just seem to love subdeviding themselves.

You guys must live up north. The religious people here in Florida are so conservative that Atheism is almost as bad as being gay. (That doesn't mean that  I think gay people are bad, just the overly religious people in the south.)

NameEntry :
No i dont live in america at all
well im asuming then florida is part of 'the bible belt.'

I sure do. I really hate living here sometimes.

I really do hate the fact that atheists are looked on so poorly simply because they don't happen to believe in divinity. I get that religion is about the most important thing for a religious person, but just because someone doesn't share that doesn't mean they are bad people. I see myself as a Christian, but this is exactly why I do not associate with any specific church anymore. I just can't take the intolerance. If I saw an intolerance towards a specific group in a specific church, I could look at others. Though I could find one that doesn't share that view, it usually always has a similar view towards another group. I honestly would prefer a lot of atheists than a lot of the pushy religious people. A lot have such a sense of superiority, so I decided to follow religion on my own. 

I actually bet I can think of a group that people might see as worse than atheists though. I am having issues with seeing the pages so I couldn't see. Do these polls include the Westboro Baptist Church? There is not a doubt in my mind that that group has to be disliked more in America than atheists. Not a single doubt. 

rcarter2 : no its groups as in groupings, not organisations. Those scum dont get mentioned.

e.g(university of minesota,i tried to trim it down): Every single study that has ever looked at the issue has revealed massive amounts of bigotry and prejudice against atheists in America.The most recent data shows that atheists are more distrusted and despised than any other minority and that an atheist is the least likely person that Americans would vote for in a presidential election. It's not just that atheists are hated, though, but also that atheists seem to represent everything about modernity which Americans dislike or fear.

The most recent study was conducted by the University of Minnesota, which found that atheistsranked lower than "Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in 'sharing their vision of American society.'Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry." The results from two of the most important questions were:

This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society...

Atheist: 39.6%

Muslims: 26.3%

Homosexuals: 22.6%

Hispanics: 20%

Conservative Christians: 13.5%

Recent Immigrants: 12.5%

Jews: 7.6%

I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group....

Atheist: 47.6%

Muslim: 33.5%

African-American 27.2%

Asian-Americans: 18.5%

Hispanics: 18.5%

Jews: 11.8%

Conservative Christians: 6.9%

Whites: 2.3%



Every group except atheists is being shown much greater tolerance and acceptance than 30 years ago. "Our analysis shows that attitudes about atheists have not followed the same historical pattern as that for previously marginalized religious groups. It is possible that the increasing tolerance for religious diversity may have heightened awareness of religion itself as the basis for solidarity in American life and sharpened the boundary between believers and nonbelievers in our collective imagination."

Some respondents associated atheism with illegal behavior, like drug use and prostitution: "that is, with immoral people who threaten respectable community from the lower end of the social hierarchy." Others saw atheists as "rampant materialists and cultural elitists" who"threaten common values from above -- the ostentatiously wealthy who make a lifestyle out of consumption or the cultural elites who think they know better than everyone else."

Given the relatively low number of atheists in America, and the even lower number who are public about their atheism, Americans can't have come to their beliefs about atheists through personal experience and hard evidence about what atheists are really like. Furthermore, dislike ofatheists doesn’t correlate very highly with dislike of gays, immigrants, or Muslims. This means that dislike of atheists isn't simply part of a larger dislike of people who are "different."

Why are atheists being singled out for special hatred and distrust?"What matters for public acceptance of atheists - and figures strongly into private acceptance as well - are beliefs about the appropriate relationship between church and state and about religion's role in underpinning society's moral order, as measured by our item on whethersociety's standards of right and wrong should be based on God's laws." It's curious that atheists would be singled out for special hatred on the basis of church/state separation which religious theists, including Christians, are usually on the forefront of fighting to preserve separation. It's rare to find a case filed by or supported by atheists which is not also supported by theists and Christians. In fact, I can't think of any off hand.

Although people may say that they consider atheists inferior because atheists don't believe that civil law should be defined according to some group's conception of what their godwants, I don't think that's the whole story. There are too many religious theists who also want civil law to be secular rather than religious. Instead,I think that a much better case can be made for the idea that atheists are being scapegoated the same waythat Catholics and Jews once were: they are treated as social outsiders who create "moral and social disorder."

Atheists can't both be lower-class drug users or prostitutes and upper-class elitists and materialists. Instead,atheists are being saddled with the"sins" of American society generally. They are "a symbolic figure" that represent religious theists' "fears about ... trends in American life." Some of those fears involve "lower class" crimes like drug use; other fears involve "upper class" crimes likegreed and elitism. Atheists are thus a"symbolic representation of one whorejects the basis for moral solidarity and cultural membership in Americansociety altogether."

That's obviously not going to change,because as long as atheists remain atheists, then won't be theists and they won't be Christians. This means that they won't agree that any gods, much less the Christian god, can serve as the basis for moral solidarityor cultural membership in American society. Of course, neither can adherents of many other religions who either don't believe in gods or who don't believe in the Christian god. As America becomes more religiously pluralist, America is going to have to change and find something else to serve as the basis for moral solidarity and cultural membership. Atheists should work to ensure that this is as secular as possible.

It doesn't really surprise me. My theory is that this is a holdover from the Cold War... as a lot of things are as a lot of things are that cause problems between the atheists and non-atheists. Because the Soviet UNION was "a godless nation" in direct opposition to America, the government did everything that they could to highlight the differences. It's why "Under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954 and In God We Trust officially put on all of our money (it had been used sporadically before on coins, but never officially on all money). During the McCarthy Era (when Senator Joesph McCarthy headed an anti-communist commission that was basically a modern-day Salem witch trial) anyone remotely different from his ideal was accused of being a communist spy. Being open minded was pretty much a crime... and atheists...oh that was a condemnation from the start. Granted, other groups suffered as well... groups like the Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses that can't take the pledge of allegiance because it goes against their beliefs were suspected as well, but not as strongly as atheists because "at least they had a religion".

It doesn't surprise me much that Atheists are listed at the top, percentage wise, when teh respondents are probably Christian. Under many of these groups listed, like Muslims and Jews, it is understandable that they are considered more agreeable since their faiths are, supposedly, based on the same God. In comparison, the first group that would come to mind with disagreement would have to be Atheists because said group is associated with the idea that there is no "superhuman agency or agencies (see definition #1 from dictionary.com)." As for the second question, shouldn't it be obvious to us? People who strive to remain in their faith often would not want to see their children, or anyone of their own group, intermarry with people outside of their beliefs for fear of those people losing their faith.

Concerning separation of church and state, I do believe it is important to have officials that seek to follow the Bible because it has a tangible base for morality. As for Atheists the lack of a superhuman agency does make me wonder where their morality comes from, and, because of that, makes me believe that their idea of right and wrong is based more on legality than anything which doing so could lead to immorality. If you do not have a reason to be moral, then why have morals in the first place? Also, just because we have a right not to believe in a religion does not mean that we need to eliminate it from every aspect of our government and daily lives.

As for the mistreatment of Atheists at the hands of Christians (I don't call my beliefs a religion) and other religious groups, that should do nothing but prove that we all have sinful hearts and justify our actions out of our own understanding and not seeking first to better understand God's Word.


*Off topic. I find it interesting that this is the first post made with my new little signature.

rcarter2 : Glad to hear that kind of opinion. The idea that one needs a religion to act in a manner befitting a responsible adult is simply a projection of a lack of character onto another person. By their own admission, they are saying that if they believed there were no gods then they would act as they pleased. But if character is who you are when no one is looking, as my Christian teachers always told me it was, then the kind of people making that claim are terrible characters.

thenumberone : I haven't read that entire post yet, but I will and I'll try to give my opinion on it when I can. But I will say that there really is no rational justification for the distrust of atheists. However, I wanted to mention a study I saw that showed that atheists were even less trusted than convicted rapists. I'll see if I can find that one, but it really shocked me.

And to answer your earlier question, Florida is in fact part of the Bible belt.

I think it's funny that people who are religious spew nothing but intolerance to people who are not. Truth is there is nothing wrong with people just because they don't believe in "God" or "Jesus"

Also keep in mind that this country (United States) was settled by people whom were trying to flee religious persecution from their former Countries. So whether athiest, agnostic, or just wanting to be low-key about their views...they wanted to get away from people whom were judging them based on their views...or lack thereof

rcarter2 : and i forgot to mention i imensely repect your stance as a christian, i wish there were more like you.
Elara : i never looked into why the us started the whole religious endorsement, (which is unconstitutional) i assumed it was just a continuation with the WASP movement, so thats interesting to know.
fear drives, just not always forward.
AuraBlaze : not marrying due to fear of faith loss, not really holding much faith then.in light of the fact the bible has earth as a test for humans to ascend (or descend) avoiding such things is removing half the supposed point, potentialy youre oposing gods will.
The constitution and founding fathers are clear, no religious endorsement, and no mixing with politics, people have a right to choose and the founders correctly realised religious rule was a driving force of the then destitute and vicious european nations.
Well i have to say, there are less atheists by percentage of them, in jail than those that are religious so evidently morality is very much present.
The bible has things i find very imoral and intolerent, which many christians hence disregard, morals are instilled from birth from the things you see and how you perceive them, not by having faith.
I am ruled by 1 key factor.
Empathy. Society is better for everyone if we are secure, if i steal or kill through causality it will produce more, potentialy against me, and through empathy you feel bad if you hurt someone else. Sharing as a child, seeing parents help people, it all instills empathy, the only real moral rule needed.
As all groups pay tax and are represented by the same government, having them involve religion in aspects like senators or money cuts people out, thats undemocratic.
So is then refusing to allow atheist views in, many schools wont even allow the theory of evolution.
soxfan849 : i saw that actualy but i opted not to post it because i had no means of verifying it and the tone seemed anti religion, i couldnt be sure it wasnt biased. feel free to post it if you find it though.
Jordanv78 : the very reason the pilgrams left england

KingKai : so atheists are hated because we all attack religion? riggggghhhhhtt...
equaly unlike muslims atheists dont blow up christians yet theyre less hated. your argument dosent hold up well

 thenumberone: I think what he was saying is that just like with all groups, there is always that one bunch that makes them all look bad.

And yeah, sorry for going off on a history lesson, but I am glad you enjoyed it. I forget sometimes that that era isn't really covered that much in history classes. Hell, I think I actually learned most of it in my honors English class in 11th grade when we read the Crucible (it was an allegory for what was going on at the time).

thenumberone : That last statement was pretty unfair.  I hope you meant that Muslim extremists blow up Christians. There are plenty of Muslims who have their own interpretations of their beliefs and are accepting of others too.  EVERY group has radicals, and they don't represent the whole.

It is unfair that atheists are hated.  Their beliefs are "unconventional" in the eyes of the society and established religion.  That is no reason for anyone else to get militant toward them.  America was BUILT on religious freedom, and it sucks that many of the same people who take pride in that are prejudiced today.

AuraBlaze : That is an excellent point about atheists' lack of a central authority or doctrine.  It makes sense that people who grew up and spent their lives living by a Book (take your pick) would find it tough to trust someone who has to create their own morals.  "Moral" and "Immoral" things are perceived differently by everyone in one way or another, and it's up to each atheist to orient his/her own moral compass without the guidance of a religion.

I was raised and confirmed Protestant.  I still believe in God, but I don't think I can consider myself a Christian.  I don't really associate myself with the Church anymore because I don't believe I have the right to tell other people how to live their lives.

Elara : i was taught next to nothing on american history,i was taught european,i just know american because i love history =)
and while there are jerks in every grouping if he only meant that he mis wrote it.
Scorpyx : my point was that there are more intolerant muslims than atheists, not that muslims are vicious and evil.

drag00n365 : perhaps some do but religious people tend to insult atheists and threaten them with hell/persecute them etc. which is worse?


i dont recall treating anyone here with contempt, and if that were the case muslims would be up there with atheists because its more common to see one religion attacking another than an atheist attacking religion.

Edit-why is this threads keyword athehsts cold logic?has anyone even said that?