I didn't know who he was till I searched his name... and really I'm not sad either. Gang members deserve to be shot by police. Who cares how he got shot and what went down, justice was served through karma. Play a gangster and die like one too.

Considering that no one has a clear on what they saw, as evidenced by this Daily Mail article, I think that we had better wait for official inquiry results to say anything conclusively. I do have to say though that with a cop that was shot and a bullet in the radio it does look like the guy had it coming. I mean, who fires at police and doesn't expect to get shot back?

I live in London and even some newspapers contradict each other, but from what I can gather he shot some police who were wearing bullet proof vests and he got shot back. If this is in fact true then i think justice was served further reports have recently stated he didn't fire at all though so we cant be sure as of yet i don't think

The Dancing Cloud :
Elara :
I am just summoning you two here as I think you might be interested in this report. I would have summoned Jigsaw too but he doesn't "care how he got shot and what went down"

I will use the official IPCC investigation report to answer some of the questions. You can read it here http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_090811_dugganupdate.aspx

How did Mark Duggan die?
"A post mortem examination concluded that Mr Duggan was killed by a single gun shot wound to the chest. He also received a second gunshot wound to his right bicep."

What were the circumstances that led to his death?
I can't really answer this one, as this is basically why there is a contreversy regarding his death.


Did he have a gun on display?
"The firearm found at the scene was a converted BBM ‘Bruni’ self loading pistol. This is not a replica; the scientist considers it to be a firearm for the purposes of the Firearms Act and a prohibited weapon and is therefore illegal."
This doesn't neccessarily mean he was displaying the gun or threatening the police with it. I have read a rumor that said he dropped the gun on the ground at the request of the police, while another rumor says that he shot at the police. The IPCC report suggests that the handgun was not fired. "At this stage there is no evidence that the handgun found at the scene was fired during the incident."


Who shot the Police Officer and how did a bullet end up in his radio?
"The bullet lodged in the MPS radio is a “jacketed round”. This is a police issue bullet and, whilst it is still subject to DNA analysis, it is consistent with having been fired from an MPS Heckler and Koch MP5"
"The officer whose radio was hit was taken to Homerton Hospital where he was examined and discharged later that night."
So it was a police officer who shot the other police officer, as to how or why is any ones guess. I can't recall hearing any witness reports saying a police man shot his co-worker or shot at his radio. Maybe he got tired of hearing  the dispatchers so he shot the radio?
If you read this IPCC report at http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_120811_Release-of-information-in-early-stages-of-Mark-Duggan.aspx, it basically says they screwed up with their initial reports. "Any reference to an exchange of shots was not correct and did not feature in any of our formal statements, although an officer was taken to hospital after the incident."

Also the shooter would have to be one of the CO19 firearms officers, as regular MPS officers don't carry fire arms. It is likely the same one that shot Mr.Duggan twice. Firearms officers are trained to take non lethal shots, even in self defence ... so this guy had terrible aim, he hit the suspect in the chest and even one of his police man buddies.


There are so many theories around his death, but one thing is for sure, it ended up in him losing his life.
From what you have read, what are your ideas from what you have gathered and ascertained with regards to this incident?

I believe what the official report and some wittness acounts of the events state. Basically, I think the suspect didn't shoot his gun and wasn't even waving it around to the polive. Honestly, I can't think of a reason why there would be a protest against this if it was a shoot out.

One last thought, Where the hell is the cab drivers witness statement? He witnessed the entire event and he most likely wont be biased towards the police or Mark Duggan.

smotpoker86 : I don't believe in caring for criminals who do this sort of thing on a daily basis. His little gang does drug trafficking, murders, and robbery and we should feel sorry that he got killed?

According to Wiki this was a pre-planned operation so all the questions are answered here. Whether he fired shots or not is unimportant to the objective of their operation.

Would you rather have him shoot the cops and get away with it?
Would you rather him go to jail then get released shortly after?
Or would you rather see one less gang member off the streets for good?

JigSaw : There are conflicting reports about if he was even a gang member from the stuff I have been reading.

smotpoker86 : It is very interesting information. It could be the guy was a bad shot, it could be that Duggan had his hands on a cop weapon that was then removed, or it could be an indication of a cover-up attempt... shoot the suspect, then shoot a cop to make it look like it was in defense. I am growing doubtful of the last one since this information is already out there.

JigSaw : As Elara pointed out, there are even conflicting reports about him being a gangster or not.

"According to Wiki this was a pre-planned operation so all the questions are answered here. Whether he fired shots or not is unimportant to the objective of their operation. "
Are you implying that his death was preplanned by the police force? I must have missed the memo that says cops get to decide who gets the death penalty.

I would rather him get arrested and detained.
I would rather him have a trial and the judicical system decide the severity of his crimes and punishments even if that meant he gets death.
Mostly I would rather the cops abide by the laws they enforce using proper procedures and not kill people on the street sparking violent riots and more death.

It is entirely possible that the police acted in self defense and proper procedures when they shot him. There is conflicting information about this, and that is why an investigation is important.

Just for the record, I am considering joining my local police force.I fully support police around the world, just not the ones who commit crimes. I may not agree with every law, but they are not the ones who make the laws they just enforce them.


Elara : The report isn't finalized so there are still many possibilities. Maybe he was being aggressive waving a gun around or trying to grab the police mans sub machine gun. Maybe the MP5 accidently fired leading other officers to think it was the suspect who shot.

Many more questions still remain.

Well yes the cops do pre-plan stuff all the time they are known as sting operations. And they do control the death penalty when they find it necessary like in this case. Gang member or not they did a good job of making him look like one. The fact that it was pre-planned means that the cops know all the answers here. Maybe they implanted the illegal gun at the scene much like they would implant a fake prostitute or drugs during other sting operations.

JigSaw : This wasn't a sting operation, they went after him to arrest him. There is nothing that suggests they staged a crime or created a scenario to lure Mark Duggan. It was obviously preplanned as the MPS officers were escorted by special armed officers. I highly doubt they planted a gun on his body to justify the killing, but I guess anythings possible.

No their cops don't control any form of a death penalty, Britain doesn't even have a death penalty. The C019 firearms officers are allowed to shoot to defend themselves or a victim, but they are trained to take non lethal shots. So either they didn't intend to kill this man or they performed an illegal act.



I find what the C019 officer representative said to be very interesting. (taken from http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3747840/Gangster-suspect-Mark-Duggan-shot-dead-by-police-was-nephew-of-crime-lord.html )

"Mark Williams, the Met Police Federation rep for firearms unit C019, said its officers are "mortified" that Duggan's family might think there is "some sort of conspiracy" because of the way information has been drip-fed from the IPCC.

He said firearms officers involved always assumed a bullet found lodged in an officer's radio was one of theirs because of their positions.
A police source said at no point did cops say Duggan opened fire. The IPCC investigation could take six months. "


The majority of the article talks about Duggan's relation to his crime lord uncle. Possibly some of the best evidence suggesting that he is a gangster.

smotpoker86 : wow nice post, theres definitely something going on and it sounds a lot like a cover up of some sort, the only naive set of circumstances that could lead to this would probably be a police man shooting his radio like you said and at the same time another policeman sees a firearm and the whole shooting begins.

 I don't think the shooting of Mark Duggan was pre planned though, if they wanted to kill him they would of found a better fail safe way to do it and what could he have done to provoke such unrest in the police force when they have to deal with paedophiles, drug lords and murders all the time, it just all seems a bit fishy.

Thanks for the post though. Really interesting stuff I feel like a detective now aha

The Dancing Cloud :   I was starting to think the same thing, they accidently shot one of the cops and then think that the suspect did it. What the c019 representative said kind of refutes that though.

"He said firearms officers involved always assumed a bullet found lodged in an officer's radio was one of theirs because of their positions.  A police source said at no point did cops say Duggan opened fire."
I am not too sure of the source but it was on a london newspapers website, I will try to look it up later.

I agree that it is unlikely they planned to go and shoot him. It would have made more sense for them to do it more discretely and not in the middle of the street with witnesses and CCTV cameras around.

smotpoker86 : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516 I think this is the link you were referring to and yeah I agree too it would make so much more sense to do it discretely, we should totally become detectives or something lol