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Pearl Harbor vs. Atom Bombs

 

02-14-11 07:26 PM
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This is an argument I've had with a particular person I know and I'm wondering what Vizzed thinks.

Here are the stats:

Just before 8 on the morning of December 7, 1941, hundreds of Japanese fighter planes attacked the American naval base at Pearl Harbor near Honolulu, Hawaii. The barrage lasted just two hours, but it was devastating: The Japanese managed to destroy nearly 20 American naval vessels, including eight enormous battleships, and almost 200 airplanes. More than 2,000 Americans soldiers and sailors died in the attack, and another 1,000 were wounded.

-http://www.history.com/topics/pearl-harbor


On August 6, 1945, during World War II (1939-45), an American B-29 bomber dropped the world’s first deployed atomic bomb over the Japanese city of Hiroshima. The explosion wiped out 90 percent of the city and immediately killed 80,000 people; tens of thousands more would later die of radiation exposure. Three days later, a second B-29 dropped another A-bomb on Nagasaki, killing an estimated 40,000 people.

-http://www.history.com/topics/bombing-of-hiroshima-and-nagasaki


My question to Vizzed users is: Should we continue to hold a grudge against Japan for attacking Pearl Harbor? Take the bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki into consideration when you reply. Even if you're not an American, you may still reply.



My opinion is that we killed a lot more people than they did, therefore we should call it even. They're attack is certainly unforgivable, but I think people need to stop overreacting about it.

Whenever the argument comes up, the person I argue with tells me that we should show no respect for Japan because of their Attack on Pearl Harbor.
I remind them of the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
They reply that Japan's attack was unprovoked, while America's attack was meant to end the war.
Regardless of whether this is true, we killed a a lot more innocent Japanese civilians than the number of Americans that they killed. That must count for something. Why can't we just call it even?
The particular person that I argue with then tells me I am being un-American because I am supposedly arguing to forgive Japan.
This is an argument I've had with a particular person I know and I'm wondering what Vizzed thinks.

Here are the stats:

Just before 8 on the morning of December 7, 1941, hundreds of Japanese fighter planes attacked the American naval base at Pearl Harbor near Honolulu, Hawaii. The barrage lasted just two hours, but it was devastating: The Japanese managed to destroy nearly 20 American naval vessels, including eight enormous battleships, and almost 200 airplanes. More than 2,000 Americans soldiers and sailors died in the attack, and another 1,000 were wounded.

-http://www.history.com/topics/pearl-harbor


On August 6, 1945, during World War II (1939-45), an American B-29 bomber dropped the world’s first deployed atomic bomb over the Japanese city of Hiroshima. The explosion wiped out 90 percent of the city and immediately killed 80,000 people; tens of thousands more would later die of radiation exposure. Three days later, a second B-29 dropped another A-bomb on Nagasaki, killing an estimated 40,000 people.

-http://www.history.com/topics/bombing-of-hiroshima-and-nagasaki


My question to Vizzed users is: Should we continue to hold a grudge against Japan for attacking Pearl Harbor? Take the bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki into consideration when you reply. Even if you're not an American, you may still reply.



My opinion is that we killed a lot more people than they did, therefore we should call it even. They're attack is certainly unforgivable, but I think people need to stop overreacting about it.

Whenever the argument comes up, the person I argue with tells me that we should show no respect for Japan because of their Attack on Pearl Harbor.
I remind them of the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
They reply that Japan's attack was unprovoked, while America's attack was meant to end the war.
Regardless of whether this is true, we killed a a lot more innocent Japanese civilians than the number of Americans that they killed. That must count for something. Why can't we just call it even?
The particular person that I argue with then tells me I am being un-American because I am supposedly arguing to forgive Japan.
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02-14-11 07:34 PM
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Let the History geek speak:
Pearl Harbor was a deliborate attack against the Americans because of an oil embargo on Japan. President Roosevelt and Congress didn't want to help "fuel the war machine". Japan wanted to put an end to the U.S. because we had stopped supplying them.
The atom bombs are debatable. I think they should've been dropped only on military bases, not in civilian cities. From what I studied, the bomb dropped on Nagasaki was supposed to be dropped on a military base, but bad weather forced the pilots to drop it somewhere else.
I honestly don't know what to think. They both were deliborate attacks of two nations at war. I say we just forget about the past and worry about today and what tomorrow holds.
Let the History geek speak:
Pearl Harbor was a deliborate attack against the Americans because of an oil embargo on Japan. President Roosevelt and Congress didn't want to help "fuel the war machine". Japan wanted to put an end to the U.S. because we had stopped supplying them.
The atom bombs are debatable. I think they should've been dropped only on military bases, not in civilian cities. From what I studied, the bomb dropped on Nagasaki was supposed to be dropped on a military base, but bad weather forced the pilots to drop it somewhere else.
I honestly don't know what to think. They both were deliborate attacks of two nations at war. I say we just forget about the past and worry about today and what tomorrow holds.
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02-14-11 08:00 PM
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*agrees with what ^ said*

Personally, I think we shouldn't look at the past anyways. Currently, the U.S. and Japan are good partners, so why look at the past?
*agrees with what ^ said*

Personally, I think we shouldn't look at the past anyways. Currently, the U.S. and Japan are good partners, so why look at the past?
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(edited by the_casualty on 02-14-11 08:01 PM)    

02-15-11 08:55 AM
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yes we should they got what was coming to them and we shouldn't like them still
yes we should they got what was coming to them and we shouldn't like them still
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02-15-11 09:03 AM
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They had that coming no one messes with the USA but with Obama as president who knows


They had that coming no one messes with the USA but with Obama as president who knows


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02-15-11 09:11 AM
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I wasn't aware anyone still held this grudge.

I think enough time has passed that pretty much everybody behind both attacks is already dead or dying from old age. While we certainly shouldn't forget either of the tragedies (yes, I, an American, think our attack on Japan was a tragedy) we have to remember that continuing to hate each other will only brew more hate. As I recall, we still have trouble letting Japan have a full-on military, so I don't know what we're worried about.

Didn't we cart a whole bunch of money over there to help Japan rebuild, too? If the guys who bombed Japan's largest cities can forgive for long enough to build them even better than they were before from the ground-up, there's no reason we shouldn't be happy with our neighbors. Heck, we use enough of their technology anyway.

Japan probably felt they had good reason to attack Pearl Harbor, and we had a good reason to stomp on Japan. If Japan hadn't acted, their success in the war was threatened, and both of our futures would have been in jeopardy if we hadn't stopped Japan when we did. Both were tragedies, we both regret our actions, so it's time to let it go. Mourn for the dead, pray for the families, be thankful for those who survived.
I wasn't aware anyone still held this grudge.

I think enough time has passed that pretty much everybody behind both attacks is already dead or dying from old age. While we certainly shouldn't forget either of the tragedies (yes, I, an American, think our attack on Japan was a tragedy) we have to remember that continuing to hate each other will only brew more hate. As I recall, we still have trouble letting Japan have a full-on military, so I don't know what we're worried about.

Didn't we cart a whole bunch of money over there to help Japan rebuild, too? If the guys who bombed Japan's largest cities can forgive for long enough to build them even better than they were before from the ground-up, there's no reason we shouldn't be happy with our neighbors. Heck, we use enough of their technology anyway.

Japan probably felt they had good reason to attack Pearl Harbor, and we had a good reason to stomp on Japan. If Japan hadn't acted, their success in the war was threatened, and both of our futures would have been in jeopardy if we hadn't stopped Japan when we did. Both were tragedies, we both regret our actions, so it's time to let it go. Mourn for the dead, pray for the families, be thankful for those who survived.
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02-15-11 05:22 PM
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Honestly I think that it is childish, ignorant, and stupid to hold a grudge against Japan still. My mother and I have had this argument dozens of times because she feels that she has to keep it alive because she was a product of that era... she was 2 at the time, no justification. (Yes, my mother is old, I know).

Now, speaking as a historian (one of these days I am putting my degree in my damn layout), in the eyes of Imperial Japan, they made the right call to attack us. It is called a preemptive strike, something that many military strategists of our own country advocate all the time (like invading Iraq before they could bomb us, or the more recent calls to bomb Iran and North Korea for the same reason). Japan at the time of WWII was in aggressive expansion mode because they live on small islands and had a growing population... so they were taking over southeast Asia. They did some really bad things, no one denies this (the worst being the Rape of Nanking), which is barely ever mentioned in our history books.

Now, Japanese/American relations had been going south ever since the end of World War I when Japan decided to emulate the methods of other Western Empires, they occupied Manchuria when the Chinese civil war broke out so that they would have a buffer between then and both Stalin and the war-torn Chinese; and yet they were decried as aggressors by the Western countries... because clearly when white people do it, it is okay, but not when anyone else does. When France fell to Hitler they moved into French Indo-china (i.e Vietnam) and we put an embargo on steel and scrap metal to them. The oil embargo followed, against FDR's wishes, because he knew that would drive oil-starved Japan to invade the Dutch East Indies. At this time the Japanese still did not want to go to war with America. The Prime Minister made requests to meet with FDR, offering to withdraw from most of the conquered areas, leaving only a small buffer between them and Russia, if America would relax the oil embargo and help broker peace with China. America refused, and the Prime Minister was ousted from power. So in their mind, they had no choice but to go after the oil in the Dutch Indies, and they knew if they did that then America would attack them and the Empire would collapse. So, they planned to cripple the Pacific Fleet before it could destroy them.

Even American admirals, once they looked at it critically, said that the Japanese were clever and did an amazing job organizing and executing the attack. It worked better than the Japanese had expected.

People say that it Japan was horrible for attacking Pearl Harbor, but they were backed into a corner and pissed off. They had been isolated from their former allies (the British), treated in a very racist manner, and had critical supplies cut off... all by the Americans, and the growing certainty that the Americans were going to invade forced them to act.

Some people speculate that if we had met with the Japanese Prime Minister that we would have not only avoided the nuking of Japan, but also we would not have had to fight the Korean and Vietnam Wars because Japan would have been an armed ally in the region helping to check the spread of communism.

And in my personal opinion, our retaliation against Japan was excessive and bordered on a war crime. We did NOT need to drop two bombs! And on top of that they were planning to drop more, each one as soon as it was done. The American people were calling for the genocide of the Japanese (1944 opinion poll records the majority of Americans in favor of the "extermination of every Japanese man, woman, and child."), yet at the same time we decried the Holocaust and the actions of Hitler!


Here are the Death Totals:
Total Dead at Pearl Harbor: 2350 (68 civilians) and 1,178 injured
Total Dead at Hiroshima: 90,000- 166,000
Total Dead at Nagasaki: 60,000 - 80,000
Total Japanese Civilian Deaths: ~140,000
Total Japanese Survivors Dead as a Result of Radiation from the Bombs as of August 2010: 420,000

Now, which country committed the bigger atrocity?
Honestly I think that it is childish, ignorant, and stupid to hold a grudge against Japan still. My mother and I have had this argument dozens of times because she feels that she has to keep it alive because she was a product of that era... she was 2 at the time, no justification. (Yes, my mother is old, I know).

Now, speaking as a historian (one of these days I am putting my degree in my damn layout), in the eyes of Imperial Japan, they made the right call to attack us. It is called a preemptive strike, something that many military strategists of our own country advocate all the time (like invading Iraq before they could bomb us, or the more recent calls to bomb Iran and North Korea for the same reason). Japan at the time of WWII was in aggressive expansion mode because they live on small islands and had a growing population... so they were taking over southeast Asia. They did some really bad things, no one denies this (the worst being the Rape of Nanking), which is barely ever mentioned in our history books.

Now, Japanese/American relations had been going south ever since the end of World War I when Japan decided to emulate the methods of other Western Empires, they occupied Manchuria when the Chinese civil war broke out so that they would have a buffer between then and both Stalin and the war-torn Chinese; and yet they were decried as aggressors by the Western countries... because clearly when white people do it, it is okay, but not when anyone else does. When France fell to Hitler they moved into French Indo-china (i.e Vietnam) and we put an embargo on steel and scrap metal to them. The oil embargo followed, against FDR's wishes, because he knew that would drive oil-starved Japan to invade the Dutch East Indies. At this time the Japanese still did not want to go to war with America. The Prime Minister made requests to meet with FDR, offering to withdraw from most of the conquered areas, leaving only a small buffer between them and Russia, if America would relax the oil embargo and help broker peace with China. America refused, and the Prime Minister was ousted from power. So in their mind, they had no choice but to go after the oil in the Dutch Indies, and they knew if they did that then America would attack them and the Empire would collapse. So, they planned to cripple the Pacific Fleet before it could destroy them.

Even American admirals, once they looked at it critically, said that the Japanese were clever and did an amazing job organizing and executing the attack. It worked better than the Japanese had expected.

People say that it Japan was horrible for attacking Pearl Harbor, but they were backed into a corner and pissed off. They had been isolated from their former allies (the British), treated in a very racist manner, and had critical supplies cut off... all by the Americans, and the growing certainty that the Americans were going to invade forced them to act.

Some people speculate that if we had met with the Japanese Prime Minister that we would have not only avoided the nuking of Japan, but also we would not have had to fight the Korean and Vietnam Wars because Japan would have been an armed ally in the region helping to check the spread of communism.

And in my personal opinion, our retaliation against Japan was excessive and bordered on a war crime. We did NOT need to drop two bombs! And on top of that they were planning to drop more, each one as soon as it was done. The American people were calling for the genocide of the Japanese (1944 opinion poll records the majority of Americans in favor of the "extermination of every Japanese man, woman, and child."), yet at the same time we decried the Holocaust and the actions of Hitler!


Here are the Death Totals:
Total Dead at Pearl Harbor: 2350 (68 civilians) and 1,178 injured
Total Dead at Hiroshima: 90,000- 166,000
Total Dead at Nagasaki: 60,000 - 80,000
Total Japanese Civilian Deaths: ~140,000
Total Japanese Survivors Dead as a Result of Radiation from the Bombs as of August 2010: 420,000

Now, which country committed the bigger atrocity?
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02-15-11 06:05 PM
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Why hold a grudge for something someone did in 1941? None of us, or most of us at least were not born then and were not apart of Pearl Harbor.

I would only hold a grudge if I was at pearl harbor and bombs started dropping over my head. Then and only then would I say nuke em

Plus this is America, we do not stand united not all of us are to blame for the bomb. And not all of Japan is to blame for pearl harbor, only people in a war think like that. If Its a jap, kill it... that is how they think. Both USA and JAPAN's higher ups are to blame for thinking they can solve problems with bombs, if anyone should hold grudges it should be against those who were apart of either side of the war.
Why hold a grudge for something someone did in 1941? None of us, or most of us at least were not born then and were not apart of Pearl Harbor.

I would only hold a grudge if I was at pearl harbor and bombs started dropping over my head. Then and only then would I say nuke em

Plus this is America, we do not stand united not all of us are to blame for the bomb. And not all of Japan is to blame for pearl harbor, only people in a war think like that. If Its a jap, kill it... that is how they think. Both USA and JAPAN's higher ups are to blame for thinking they can solve problems with bombs, if anyone should hold grudges it should be against those who were apart of either side of the war.
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03-03-11 02:06 PM
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I don't know anyone who holds a grudge against the Japanese for Pearl Harbor. I live in Hawaii and Pearl Harbor is a 20 minute drive (no traffic) away from where I live. I work with Japanese, I live near them and they are everywhere as tourists. It's historical now.

The only people I know who hate or grudge Japanese are the old fellas who fought a war against them. They lived it. It's like asking our generation to not hold a grudge against the people who attacked the Twin Towers on 9/11. They killed maybe 2500 people or so. We've killed many many more times that in our 10 year war against Afganistan and Iraq.

Do you hold a grudge against the Taliban?
I don't know anyone who holds a grudge against the Japanese for Pearl Harbor. I live in Hawaii and Pearl Harbor is a 20 minute drive (no traffic) away from where I live. I work with Japanese, I live near them and they are everywhere as tourists. It's historical now.

The only people I know who hate or grudge Japanese are the old fellas who fought a war against them. They lived it. It's like asking our generation to not hold a grudge against the people who attacked the Twin Towers on 9/11. They killed maybe 2500 people or so. We've killed many many more times that in our 10 year war against Afganistan and Iraq.

Do you hold a grudge against the Taliban?
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03-03-11 02:27 PM
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warmaker : I certainly hold a grudge against the Taliban, but you can't lump them with people who look sorta like they could be in the Taliban. I know people who do that.
warmaker : I certainly hold a grudge against the Taliban, but you can't lump them with people who look sorta like they could be in the Taliban. I know people who do that.
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As far as I'm concerned no one from this era should give a rat's ass about what happened back then. It's of course important to know about it, but to put yourselves in the shoes of people back then and form an opinion for this time period is the wrong answer. The Japanese (most of them) living now days had nothing to do with what happened, nor were any of YOU involved in those events. Almost all those people are likely dead. WE control what happens here and now, so having a grudge against them, and vice-versa, is ridiculous, illogical and doesn't make sense. It's from a time long past, just like the Civil War and/or Trojan War. People are different now. On both sides. I can almost say that many Japanese probably don't even care about that. It's a pity if you hold a grudge for something that you were never a part of.
As far as I'm concerned no one from this era should give a rat's ass about what happened back then. It's of course important to know about it, but to put yourselves in the shoes of people back then and form an opinion for this time period is the wrong answer. The Japanese (most of them) living now days had nothing to do with what happened, nor were any of YOU involved in those events. Almost all those people are likely dead. WE control what happens here and now, so having a grudge against them, and vice-versa, is ridiculous, illogical and doesn't make sense. It's from a time long past, just like the Civil War and/or Trojan War. People are different now. On both sides. I can almost say that many Japanese probably don't even care about that. It's a pity if you hold a grudge for something that you were never a part of.
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03-10-11 01:25 PM
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I think it's interesting this is brought up. The Japanese attacked us during WWII and at Pearl Harbor, right? Most of us buy Japenese things. Video games, cars, and technology all come from Japan and we purchase it at stores around the U.S. and in other countries.

If we're pissed at them, we shouldn't buy their things. I don't have any grudge because it happened before my lifetime. I also own a PS2 and a Honda Civic. And I've been to Japan before.

Japanese are also not pissed at the U.S. for the atom bomb, either. They buy our Coke and Pepsi and blue jeans and all our stuff too.

I'm sure one day we'll be friends with the middle east and keep buying their stuff. In fact, the U.S. was friends with Saddam Hussein and Iraq in the mid 1980s when they were fighting Iran. I'm sure we'll be friends with all them again sooner or later.

History happened. It's over. No grudges.
I think it's interesting this is brought up. The Japanese attacked us during WWII and at Pearl Harbor, right? Most of us buy Japenese things. Video games, cars, and technology all come from Japan and we purchase it at stores around the U.S. and in other countries.

If we're pissed at them, we shouldn't buy their things. I don't have any grudge because it happened before my lifetime. I also own a PS2 and a Honda Civic. And I've been to Japan before.

Japanese are also not pissed at the U.S. for the atom bomb, either. They buy our Coke and Pepsi and blue jeans and all our stuff too.

I'm sure one day we'll be friends with the middle east and keep buying their stuff. In fact, the U.S. was friends with Saddam Hussein and Iraq in the mid 1980s when they were fighting Iran. I'm sure we'll be friends with all them again sooner or later.

History happened. It's over. No grudges.
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03-10-11 04:49 PM
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to be honest, war is war. They even sent us a message warning us that there would be an attack. The senior coding officers were drunk so they didn't decode it in time. It was our fault that we weren't ready. I don't blame the Japanese for their attack. It was a good, strategic attack just as the atom bomb was a good move. Without the atom bomb the Japanese would have fought till the last man. So both sides are on equal terms.
to be honest, war is war. They even sent us a message warning us that there would be an attack. The senior coding officers were drunk so they didn't decode it in time. It was our fault that we weren't ready. I don't blame the Japanese for their attack. It was a good, strategic attack just as the atom bomb was a good move. Without the atom bomb the Japanese would have fought till the last man. So both sides are on equal terms.
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It was indeed our fault. Its good to know mistakes of times past, but I do not think we should still be holding a grudge if that's the case. Mutual agreements, and trade. If your gonna follow certain politics and decisions it good to know what has happened in the last couple decades though.
It was indeed our fault. Its good to know mistakes of times past, but I do not think we should still be holding a grudge if that's the case. Mutual agreements, and trade. If your gonna follow certain politics and decisions it good to know what has happened in the last couple decades though.
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03-11-11 11:09 PM
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They still F'ed up, but we got Japan many times over. But now they are becoming a international super power, imagine what they'd be had we not dropped thos bombs?
They still F'ed up, but we got Japan many times over. But now they are becoming a international super power, imagine what they'd be had we not dropped thos bombs?
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03-12-11 12:13 AM
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JZ: It wasn't that they sent a message, it was that they had attacked with their battleships 3 hours earlier, and we didn't prepare for a second aircraft carrier attack. It was still unprovoked, and that is what caused the U.S. to enter war with Japan.
I don't, but I can understand why somebody might. take 9/11 for example, the people who committed that are dead, but we continue to hunt the mastermind. Same thing in WWII. There was no direct way to end the war, and atomic bombs were seen as a fear factor to end it. The Axis had already been responsible for the deaths of far more than what happened in Japan, so yes, it was necessary and not over-kill. 11-12 million died JUST in the Holocaust, 60 million more or less in the entire war. I think the casualties Japan experienced in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were minimal at best compared with what they owed.
JZ: It wasn't that they sent a message, it was that they had attacked with their battleships 3 hours earlier, and we didn't prepare for a second aircraft carrier attack. It was still unprovoked, and that is what caused the U.S. to enter war with Japan.
I don't, but I can understand why somebody might. take 9/11 for example, the people who committed that are dead, but we continue to hunt the mastermind. Same thing in WWII. There was no direct way to end the war, and atomic bombs were seen as a fear factor to end it. The Axis had already been responsible for the deaths of far more than what happened in Japan, so yes, it was necessary and not over-kill. 11-12 million died JUST in the Holocaust, 60 million more or less in the entire war. I think the casualties Japan experienced in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were minimal at best compared with what they owed.
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(edited by Sephitard9001 on 03-12-11 12:21 AM)    

03-26-11 12:02 PM
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I think it's utterly ridiculous for modern Americans to hold a grudge against Japan. It's also racist. People today were not alive during WWII. It was a sad war involving the entire world and immorality on all sides. Far more people died during the actual fighting in Europe and around the world than in Pearl Harbour. Far more people died in the actual fighting than even both atomic bombs combined.

To the people saying it was "unprovoked"...don't you understand how international politics worked during WWII? It was a free-for-all, a global war with different ideologies clashing violently. I am British and I don't hold a grudge against Germans for their "unprovoked" attacks on my country. I am from London and I don't hold a grudge against the Irish because of the IRA bombings. Specific people involved that were behind the politics leading to violence and war are dead now. We don't have anyone to blame. Why blame the innocent children of the survivors for something their ancestors did? Everyone is ashamed of what happened in both world wars. It is foolish, useless, ignorant and racist to hold a grudge.


I think it's utterly ridiculous for modern Americans to hold a grudge against Japan. It's also racist. People today were not alive during WWII. It was a sad war involving the entire world and immorality on all sides. Far more people died during the actual fighting in Europe and around the world than in Pearl Harbour. Far more people died in the actual fighting than even both atomic bombs combined.

To the people saying it was "unprovoked"...don't you understand how international politics worked during WWII? It was a free-for-all, a global war with different ideologies clashing violently. I am British and I don't hold a grudge against Germans for their "unprovoked" attacks on my country. I am from London and I don't hold a grudge against the Irish because of the IRA bombings. Specific people involved that were behind the politics leading to violence and war are dead now. We don't have anyone to blame. Why blame the innocent children of the survivors for something their ancestors did? Everyone is ashamed of what happened in both world wars. It is foolish, useless, ignorant and racist to hold a grudge.


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03-27-11 01:25 PM
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I think that we ought to forget about the disaster that took place in Japan 65 years ago, and focus on the one taking place in Japan NOW.
I think that we ought to forget about the disaster that took place in Japan 65 years ago, and focus on the one taking place in Japan NOW.
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03-27-11 01:34 PM
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Not to mention, this one was natural (at least in the beginning).
Not to mention, this one was natural (at least in the beginning).
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(edited by Middlemoor on 03-27-11 01:36 PM)    

03-27-11 01:48 PM
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If someone bombs us and kills some people, should we kill tens of thousands of innocents back? no. we're not "even" with them. no one should kill in the first place, and there should be no war. let me ask you this: do two wrongs make a right?
If someone bombs us and kills some people, should we kill tens of thousands of innocents back? no. we're not "even" with them. no one should kill in the first place, and there should be no war. let me ask you this: do two wrongs make a right?
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