NotJon : Hey, I'm too lazy to write a fountain of information on the topic but i just wanted to say a cople of things about your post. Osama Bin Laden actaully said that he had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. Also many of the "terrorists" (I think about nine of them, not 100% sure) that were accused of carrying out the attacks (ie; flying planes into the towers) actually live today, and couldn't believe that hey had been labelled Terrorists. Originally the FBI said it was these certain people. After learning that many are actually alive, therfore not having died in the attacks, the FBI back tracked and said there identities were stolen. (I smell horse s***). Of course people will debate this kind of thing to the grave, i just thought I'd share some Info. Cheers.

Golvellius : I have no idea how this is relevant to my post. However, I will say this. The individuals who plotted the events of 9/11 had a reason for doing so. By attacking the World Trade Center, they made it obvious that they were against the world that America was most responsible for creating. The World Trade Center was the biggest symbol of capitalism, big business, post modernity, etc. These forces are changing the rest of the world as well as these people's way of life. It wasn't simply and act of terror. There's a reason for everything.

Hoochman : No religion likes another religion. In fact, the New Testament sure doesn't like Buddhists, Hindus, Pastaferians(tra-lala. Can this be my running joke?), or anything that doesn't actually worship the Christian God...

Holy books always say not to worship a god or gods not of said religion. It's a religion thing.

I've seen more peaceful Muslims, to be honest. Sure one took it too far on Deviantart just because I didn't know Muhammad couldn't be depicted. Go figure. I should have seen it coming, even though I don't see how that rule applies to non-Muslims... I just respected him and went on with life.

Now, say I was Muslim and a Christian felt a poem I wrote about flowers seemed offensive. That would be different, because I wrote a poem about flowers with nothing but saying how great Allah was for making them. It's kinda like how that guy felt in a more simplistic way.

Violence is in every human's blood. Even those who are peaceful could bite. It's our nature.

NotJon : My post had relevance to the topic but unfortunately I have replied to the wrong person. Sorry about that, Disregard.

No its not evil th ones that are doing wrong however like thr extremes are well not vry nice lets say that.

Forget all this "peaceful Muslims" stuff. If they're peaceful, they're really not following Mohammed's writings. You can't actually read the Quran and think it's peaceful.
Now, as for what it looks like in truly Muslim countries...
there's a woman at my church whose father was an ambassador in Iran. She lived there for a while, and experienced this all first-hand. Even when the leader was good and peaceful and not going and attacking the American students at their campus, the bus would drive by the windowless Muslim schools (the Americans were at a separate school with American flags and all that) and they could hear the chants of "kill the infidels".
Then things changed. A new ruler arose when she was a junior in high school. A bunch of kids, some as young as 5 or 6, came into the American school with guns and started shooting at the students. The woman and a few others survived only because one of the teachers was pulling them along. Looking at those kids' eyes, all she could see was hate. This was all they knew. When another kid was asked what they were learning (again 5 or 6), they replied that they were learning to make all the world Muslim.
This is beyond not liking another religion... it's to the point that these people are indoctrinated from a young age that they must get rid of all the infidels. Those "peaceful" Muslims are ones who have escaped true Muslim countries and want a new life in Europe or America or somewhere... but since it's all they know, they continue to practice a religion that teaches evil. And they continue to take over. Islam isn't evil... it's founder and his teachings are.

On an interesting side note, that deals with the takeover issue... that Muslim congressman who swore in on the Quran? Former Muslims have given light to a disturbing issue...
He can stand there and, with his hand on the Quran, lie all he wants, as long as he works to further the goals of Islam. Scary, huh?

"He can stand there and, with his hand on the Quran, lie all he wants, as long as he works to further the goals of Islam. Scary, huh?"

I think this is the thing most people don't realize. The stuff that the Islamic religious leaders say to American/Western people/TV is one thing, but what they teach privately in mosques and in their own countries is very different. Sure, there are people who live peacefully in America but they do so with the understanding that it's their responsibility to convert or take over eventually.

To call them "evil" for following their religion is unfair based on the actions of most other major religions.... however, I think the threat of Islam to Western Culture and lifestyle is real. I don't want Sharia Law as the law where I live. Given enough political power that could happen. It's already happening in Europe. There are places where Sharia Law is the law.... not officially of the country, but of either small towns and cities or parts of cities.

I don't particularly care if someone wants to be Muslim, but when any group starts to force their values and ideals on me then that's where I draw the line.

KlawedFlaw : Really, and where is it said that the Bible doesn't like Buddhists or Hindus or Pasterians? It is already very well known that there are peaceful Muslims, it is also a fact that Islam is not peaceful.

Hoochman : It doesn't address those religions specifically, but, it does imply (according to play4fun I think) that those who worship other gods will be damned.

Islam is a religion, by itself it can do no harm. People are the ones who take it and do what they wish. Whether you find that good or evil is your business. I'm sure to many Muslims, we are evil in their eyes. Also, that thing that you said, it is not a fact.

NotJon : Actually yes it is fact. It is completely denial of reality to say Islam doesn't command murder and genocide. And the Bible doesn't the people, it hates the religions.

Hoochman : The Bible was written by men who were told what to write by God or the Holy Spirit. It doesn't take a college professor to read the entire Bible, and know it tells one not to worship other Gods... Here's one you probably know: one of the 10 Commandments says not to worship other gods. It doesn't need to list them, because it makes it obvious already.

Also, give me the sources for this crap you're saying about how Islam is a religion that does not teach peace. If I remember correctly as I have flashbacks of learning about world religions in 6th grade or so, I think I read that the violence was to be for a reason. I'd like the sites you read, and you must know I will know if these are reputable.

I haven't studied the Bible in great depth, but there's just some things that are so obvious, you don't even need a preacher to tell you. For one, my Bible has the Ten Commandments in the first few pages.

Hoochman : First off, I never said that Bible hates anyone or any religion. I said that the Bible claims that there will be punishment for those of different faiths. It can't hate, it's a book. Books are incapable of emotion. Second, how is it a fact? That's your opinion. That is how you interpret what you have read. Besides, the Bible is full of massive killings as well. To just hold Islam and Muslims accountable only is ignorant. Ever hear of the Crusades? The Christians have already done most of their violence and genocide on peoples in the Americas anyway. Maybe if you said, "Fact: The Abrahamic religions have implied murder and genocide in their books," it would be a better argument. Besides, there is no such thing as a fact anyway.

NotJon : No. The crusades were for a good cause. To shut up the annoying knights! The murder of innocent people is meaningless. I mean, not my problem. It's the past. /complete sarcasm

Couldn't resist...

Evidently, Iran, an Islamic nation, commands murder. Recent news of an Iranian Christian pastor facing the death penalty for apostasy http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Iranian-Protestant-pastor,-held-in-prison-for-months,-risks-death-penalty-for-apostasy-19768.html asserts that under Iran's interpretation of Islam, apostasy is punishable by death. This example among others confirms that, at least for Iran, Islam commands murder in order to preserve itself.

tRIUNE : In that case, aren't the laws under a theocracy normally twisted? I have yet to read the religion's holy book, but I have a feeling Iran could be somewhat theocratic. I'm reading the Wikipedia article on the country's constitution. It seems like they added in theocratic elements to the country's political spectrum. For one, it's very dependent on Islam.

I'll research a bit after I finish my math or when I take a break from it. Gotta get my grade up...

tRIUNE : That ties in with my earlier post about the woman from my church who lived in Iran during her youth... only her experiences were even more frightening: they weren't just attacking Christians, but all the Americans because they were rejecting Islam.

NotJon :
KlawedFlaw :
Koran
2 : 191, And slay them wherever ye catch them

2 : 193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression

2 : 216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you

3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah

4:48 “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”

4:84, Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.

4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers

5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Big difference between the Christians in the crusades and Muslims, the Christians weren't following the Bible. But the Muslims were reading their book. You both seem to fail to tell the difference between a recorded event and something that is actually commanded. It is quite absurd to say there is no such thing as facts, that in itself is a contradiction.

Hoochman : Let me rephrase that, the only proven facts are the fundamental interactions of physics. I mean, you can argue that, but, I dunno...

I don't know what you're talking about. It was a holy war with different peoples fighting over the same holy land for 200 years. Besides, Christians scare me more than Muslims. Christianity have done far more evil to the world than Islam has.

NotJon : Er, sorry to burst your bubble, but true Christians aren't like that at all. The Crusades were a flaw, a misguided attempt. But when compared to actual teachings, what do you have? Commands to be peaceful, not to cause trouble, and to spread the message through kindness. What do Muslims have? War, and killing those who reject Islam. And you call Christians scary?

bigNATE : It doesn't matter, it happened. Look, you can bring up some quotes from the Qur'an and I can put up some quotes to try and counter that. However, outside of 9/11, what have Muslims done that's so evil? You shouldn't even count those because the men responsible for that were extremists and obviously lived a pretty poor life to throw it all away that day and cause all of this stereotyping and fear. Here's a whole list of things that Christianity has done: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm I'm not saying that Islam hasn't done any wrong (or any religion in general), but, Christianity isn't exactly all "peaceful" and full of "kindness."