DarkHyren : Who are you to be telling Christians what the message is? The true meaning of Christianity is presented fully here. The stuff metal's saying is contradictory to the Bible, and therefore not Christian beliefs.
Also, there's this thing called context. If you read the passage surrounding the given text, you will often find the true meaning within.

Good post, I agree with almost everything. 1 thing I'd like to point out though.

Even if you're saved, you can still go to hell. I'm saved and lets say I commit a sin and die shortly after without repenting, I'd go to hell since no sinner can enter the kingdom of God (but we remove that sin from our soul when we ask Jesus to forgive us). However, if and when I do sin, I'm always sure to repent soon after. The Bible talks about repenting multiple times in a day and that there really is no limit on how many times you can repent in a single day, just as long as you truly mean it every time and God knows your heart so he'd know if you do or not.

My point is, for all of us Christians who are saved, we must make it a habit of repenting daily if we're sinning daily. Another good thing to which is a good thing to get into the habit of doing is repenting at night while you're praying before you go to sleep, that way you never forget and get into the habit.

Davideo7 : Well, isn't it sort of like, if you're truly saved then you might still sin, but you wouldn't be indulging it? You would know it's wrong and repent your sins and stuff like that.
Ehh, I feel like that was a bad way to phrase that...
But what I mean is that, I kind of don't think you can go to hell if you're saved, because... you're saved . But it's not a one time thing, where once you accept him once you automatically go to heaven, but you have to devote your life to God and live as a Christian, repenting sins when necessary.

mdynasty926 : People who are saved though aren't perfect, they're still capable of sinning, though they would of course feel guilty afterward and it most likely would be in them to repent afterward anyway. The Bible doesn't say to repent daily for no reason though.

Davideo7 : I know people who aren't saved aren't perfect. But that's why Jesus came right? To make it possible to go to heaven even if we can't fulfill the Ten Commandments. Because no one could do that and we still have to repent our sins because like I said before, it's not a one time deal. You have to live as a Christian too.
I mean, if you're "saved" then that means that you've received the salvation doesn't it? You might stumble on the way with sin but you're still saved by God.
DarkHyren : There's already an established doctrine for Christianity though, and the Gospel is a key concept that is accepted(or should be accepted) by ALL Christians. Some might say they're Christians, but it is possible for them to be not Christians. It might seem harsh, but it's true. There are some who aren't even if they claim to be Christian.

Davideo7 : That's interesting... I don't believe you have to repent after every sin before you can go to Heaven... although I can't think of any verses off the top of my head that say otherwise. I believe the term saved puts it well though... it describes what I hold as true: once you've truly come to Christ, you are forever saved from Hell, no matter what you do... because a true follower of Christ will try to not do many horrible things. But if they do, since they're of course not perfect... well, they'll have the sense to plead for forgiveness... however, I believe that that forgiveness is not withheld until you ask. When Jesus died, all sins, past, present, and future, were forgiven. The act of praying for God's forgiveness is a symbolization of our efforts to repent.

bigNATE : think about what you just said....

God will forgive you once you've accepted him whether you ask for forgiveness or not after you sin.... but you have to accept God before he'll forgive you.

So, you have to accept Jesus to be forgiven of sin... but after that you don't have to do anything to be forgiven of sin.

I guess it just doesn't make sense to me.

But to rebut David a tiny bit.... I don't think a sin committed right before death is a one-way ticket to hell. There is a time between death and the final judgment of mankind where I think there is time to repent....

geeogree : Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say... and I don't quite understand either... er, more that I don't understand how God could actually do that for us with all our rebellion. But that's what I've seen, and what I believe. I can see it working, however, based on the heart of a true Christian: they'll want to repent... so God doesn't have to worry about them not repenting.

but that is contradictory.... if they don't believe strongly enough to repent then why do they deserve to be forgiven? Because they said a prayer one time and said they believed in Jesus?

I don't understand this idea in Christianity where once saved always saved.... it's seems like a very easy, lazy way to get to heaven. And I don't believe the Bible teaches it either. Jesus preached obedience to commandments, repentance, baptism, enduring to the end.... not pray to God once and you're saved no matter what from then on out.

Yeah I agree with Geeogree's above statement. Plus I've seen plenty of Born Again Christians back slide, even some who had the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

What if a born again Christian goes through a few events which causes them to rebel and eventually ends up killing someone, would they still go to heaven even if they didn't repent for murdering someone?

And I agree, I don't like the "Once saved always saved" stuff, that to me makes it seem like once you're saved you can do anything you want and you're guaranteed a ticket to heaven no matter what.

Every Christian is going to sin willing and unwillingly, it's in our nature because we still wrestle with the flesh even though we have the Spirit. So there is a difference between a slip-up and full-blown back-slide. Yeah I'm gonna venture to say that if you kill someone after you have received Christ, you will have to give an account for it, but still God is able to forgive. But I want to point out some things that Paul wrote regarding this. I know that I am taking a sizable chunk out of from the bible here but I believe it is all relevant to the subject.

ROMANS 7:19-8:14: For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die;but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

With our time here, the idea of repentance and humiliation before God is fellowship with Him, that is why we are here. And we are to be repentant, but to be technical, if we sin then die before having the chance to confess and repent, we still have His Spirit. This is the idea of the once-for-all forgiveness.

EDIT: not sure if anyone noticed but I left out a word in the scripture, fixed it.

I know it's not like "once saved always saved" exactly but it's a lifetime relationship with God. See here's the thing though. I don't think you can lose your salvation. If you were truly a Christian, or truly born again, you wouldn't be able to "backslide" to the point where you can lose your faith. I don't think you can. Some atheists or something claim to be former Christians, but then I don't think they were in the first place to be honest. It's harsh for those who I claimed were false converts, but I don't think true Christians can lose their salvation.
Being "Born again" means you're a new creature as the Bible calls it. So if you're a new creature, then you would think about things differently and you wouldn't fall deep into sin because you would know to resist, and then if you sin you would repent.
I don't know if an act of sin right before you die would cause you to lose your faith, but I doubt that.

Davideo7 :

geeogree :

I agree with MDynasty and bigNATE. When a person is converted (repented and put their faith in Jesus), they are born again (rebirth), with their hearts regenerated, and they are saved. So their sins are forgiven past, present, and future.

We need to remember that salvation belongs to the Lord (Psalm 62:1; Revelation 7:10) He's the one who gives it. So if we go back to the concept of rebirth, the only way a Christian can lose salvation is when he is de-born, have their hearts degenerate, and have God to take salvation away from them.

Here's the thing. I'm pretty sure that you do not know every single sin that you have committed. So it is impossible that you can confess every single sin that you have committed in your life. When you receive Jesus as your personal savior, you are saved. Past tense. You are "sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30) You became "heirs of God" (Romans 8:17), and we are now "children of God" (1 John 2:28) instead of "objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3) and we remember this verse from John: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:28-29)

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)

"To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—" (Jude 24)

So we can see God guaranteeing our salvation when we are SAVED.

But why do we still confess our sins even though we become Christians? It's because a sin is still a sin, and when we sin, our relationship with God would be affected, but it does not mean the relationship is broken. In fact if the person does feel sorrowful for his sins and he actually confesses to God, it shows that God has saved him.

I don't use the term "Once saved always saved" because there are some churches who teach that if you prayed that prayer, then you will be saved forever. In reality, you don't know if the person is really saved unless they actually repent and put their trust in the savior. I prefer the term "Perseverance of the Saints," but the concept is the same. If a person is TRULY saved, he WOULD NOT abandon the faith, and his FRUITS are evidence of his sound salvation, because God has done a work in his life. When we become Christians, we have the spirit of God which is the sign of our salvation and the work of sanctification is also from the Holy Spirit.

"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)

but how do you develop the faith required to be saved without living the life of a Christian?

You have to live like a Christian in order to truly become saved.... not the other way around... you don't just pray and have the faith all of a sudden.... you build your faith step by step by living like a Christian should and repenting when you make mistakes until your faith is strong enough to be saved.

In this way people who claim to be Christians (and are trying to be) can give up and backslide....

Yeah I don't agree with the 'once saved always saved'. Jesus says in the Gospel of John "I will never leave you nor forsake you," but that doesn't mean we can't forsake Him, and in the process the Spirit leaves us. But in other words to stress what I was saying earlier, in Hebrews 10:14 it reads: For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

EDIT: sorry Hebrews 13:5- "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

geeogree : You are talking about process of sanctification. When we are converted, we are justified, and the holy spirit dwells in us as the sign that we are saved. Sanctification is the work of the holy spirit working in our lives and grow as a Christian, and to become more and more like Christ, but when we are converted, our souls are saved, but since we are still in our earthly bodies, the Holy Spirit affects the way we live, so that we can be shown that we are part of God.

I do believe that many of those who "backslide" are in reality, false converts. They may have "prayed the prayer" as a child, came up to the alter, etc, but they were never born again and did not repent and put their trust in the savior. So in reality, their hearts were never regenerate.

Jesus said that you will know them by their fruit. The fruit is an indication if someone is saved or not, but the fruit does not save us.

So it starts from conversion. When God saved you, the holy spirit would start a work in your life and go through a life of continuous sanctification.

Preacher Paul Washer said this: "an ongoing, not a flu shot...'done, did that'. No, the evidence that you 'done, did that', is that you are still doing it."

"We have assurance that we come to know, not just because we one time repented, but that we are continuing to repent today, and it's not that one time we believe, but that you continue to believe today, and it is not that one time we walk with Him, but that we are continue to walk with Him today."

play4fun : no I'm not talking about sanctification.... I'm talking about the process of gaining enough faith to be saved.

Well faith is what we have to assure us that we are saved. As far as building up the faith, if you edify the Spirit with things of the Spirit-- reading the Bible, fellowship with other Christians, etc. then you mortify the flesh.

When you actually have faith, the effects are huge.

"Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:20)

And we see so many instances that faith in Jesus brings those to healing, both physical and spiritual wounds (forgiveness of sins). The centurion, the men who brought the paralytic on a mat, the sinful woman who anointed Jesus with perfume, even a woman was healed just by touching Jesus.

The entire Hebrews 11 talks about those of faith, Abraham was justified through his faith in God (Romans 4)

So if you have faith in God, you trust in God's work of salvation, that is enough. God does all the rest, including the change in you.

Obedience is a response from our conversion, because being a Christian is someone who loves Christ, and Jesus gave the command that "If you love me, keep my commandments" That is showing who really loves Him. If we do love Him, we would be willing. So it is still a matter of whether the person is saved or not.

I think I heard somewhere that the sins of the father are passed to the son? (It could be the reverse of that where they are not). But if I got the verse right (I believe it is said in the Bible, you'll have to help me on this).

Isn't then that people who are worshiping God (I won't say Jesus, because I don't believe that Jesus and God are the same, not bashing anyone who does but that is my belief) under a pastor or even high priest or to take it to the extreme for Catholics the Pope, who is sinning (you've heard the scandals that go on, even if not all are true if one is true the implications are grave), then those sins are passed down as they are a father of sorts to their sons (the congregation).


The next question I have is concerning false idols. I have been to quite a few churches and from what I have seen, Jesus is portrayed as a Caucasian male with a long beard and blue eyes, now seeing as no one has a picture of Jesus and that people pray to Jesus while looking at this picture and consciously or un-consciously having it in their heads. Doesn't that construe as worshiping something that is false?