Is God good? Is he all powerful? As a Bible believing Christian I affirm that God is both good and all powerful. Yet evil exists in our world. Is this a contradiction with either God’s goodness or omnipotence? Certainly not.
How do we reconcile evil with the God of the Bible? First of all we must not fail to look at ourselves as the problem. We live in a broken world as a result of the fall. Sin entered into the world when Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3). God warned them before hand that there would be consequences if they disobeyed (Genesis 2:17). The consequence of sin is death, not just physical death, but spiritual death. This sin nature is passed down from Adam to all humanity (Romans 5:12). We all die in Adam, as Adam our head, the representative of the entire human race as the first human (1 Corinthians 15:22). The earth was also cursed because of sin and the effects of that curse is seen through things like drought, famine, floods, and other natural disasters (Genesis 3:17, Romans 8:22). So it is not only the human race that awaits redemption and a new birth but the earth itself, and God has promised to accomplish both. He will make all things new one day (Rev 21:4-5).

Seeing that the consequences of sin are death, and corruption, we must not look only outside of ourselves when it comes to evil. We must realize the wickedness of our own hearts (Jeremiah 17:9). The book of James says “But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death” (James 1:14-15). We are the problem. It is by the wickedness of our own hearts that we have desired what we ought not to desire, taken it, and rebelled against God. This is how sin entered into the world and this is how sin and its affects; death, corruption of the Earth, and evil, are perpetuated throughout history.

Realizing that we are the problem, we must now frame the problem of evil correctly. We must not look to God and ask why he does not remove evil from the world if he really is all good and powerful. We are asking the wrong question when we ask it that way. The right question to ask is “Why does a good and Holy God who knows how sinful I am, allow me to draw one more breath on this Earth?” You see, God is good, but God is also holy (Isaiah 6:3, Revelation 4:8). His goodness does not crowd out his holiness. Therefore if God is all holy, and his Holiness must be satisfied, that is, he cannot tolerate sin, the fact that he allows any of us to continue to live is a demonstration that he is in fact good, and he is merciful to us. Why would God be so inclined to have this disposition towards sinful creatures? The book of Romans says “Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance” (Romans 2:4)?

And so God has purposed to bring us to repentance. He is making all things new. He did not exclude himself from the suffering of this world. He himself suffered for us, through his Son Jesus Christ on the cross. This is how God has purposed to bring us to repentance, and ultimately accomplish what God is most after, and that is his own glory. God is glorified through the person and work of Jesus and we are brought to behold his glory through Jesus who has redeemed us. It is through Christ that God has shone the light of the knowledge of his glory (2 Corinthians 4:6).
To complain that God does not remove evil is basically to say that if we were God we would do it another way. But we are not God. Only God is God and we are his creation. We have no right to say that God should have done anything differently. It is God’s prerogative to accomplish what he purposes to accomplish in the way he purposes to accomplish it. The Book of Isaiah says "Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it” (Isaiah 46:8-11).

God is good. His goodness is displayed in his patience and mercy towards us and through the grace he has provided through the cross of Jesus Christ. It is his purpose to glorify himself through his Son. His power is displayed in the fact that he is orchestrating all these events in cosmic history to glorify himself, and so we might be brought to a place to behold his glory. He does not accomplish this by simply removing evil. He does so in the way that he alone has purposed to do so. And if we ever doubt this, we need only to look to his word where it says “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." (Revelation 21:4-5). He is making all things new. He will wipe away every tear. And in this he accomplishes his good pleasure. Death and evil will ultimately be defeated and we will behold his glory for all eternity.

And so we see that it is through the redemption of mankind and his creation that we are made to see the glory of God. It is through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, that we are made to see the beauty of God, that he alone is worthy of worship. We can see this illustrated through the worship of Christ, the slain Lamb of God in Revelation 5: And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped. (Revelation 5:9-14)

So if we are made to see the beauty and the glory of God through the atonement of Christ, then there must have been something for which the atonement was necessary. And so God has allowed evil to exist in this world so that his creation would fall, so that mankind and creation would be redeemed through Christ. And now we can indeed taste and see that the Lord is good (Psalm 34:8). That he would give his only son for us (John 3:16) shows that there is no greater love than the love the love he has shown us, because he laid down his life for us (John 15:13). This love would have never been shown, the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ would have never been so greatly revealed unless there was evil in the world to overthrow.

Now that you have read my thoughts on the topic, what are your thoughts? How do you reconcile the goodness of God and the omnipotence of God with evil and suffering in the world?

Perhaps one of the best examples of God allowing imperfection and evil into the world is the trial of Job.  He was experienced to all sorts of hardship by the Devil, and his wife even told him to "curse God and die".  Job was described as a "perfect and an upright man" by God himself, to Satan.  Why then would God allow Job to suffer so much?  For this testimony: "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God".  -Job 19:26.  Job believed in the resurrection of his body unto happiness.  He had a testimony of Jesus Christ, and acted on that testimony.  It is by undergoing trials that the weak become strong, and that the strong can show the power of God.  Job was one of these strong people.  "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."  -1st Corinthians 15:58.  Following God will make us "stedfast and unmoveable" like Job and Jesus Himself.  But it is a process.  Most of us don't become that way immediately.  We must work to develop faith, for as James stated, "faith without works is dead" -James 2:20.  By doing what God would have us do, we develop faith in Him and in His son, Jesus Christ.  We become, through this process, like the Savior Himself, until "we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive".  Ephesians 4:13-14.  Essentially, this means that we must all eventually come to believe all the same truths.  We must seek out truth, and accept the truths we find as soon as we receive a testimony of them.

supernerd117 : Job is a good example. It would seem he came through the trial even more steadfast in his faith. Without these kinds of trials in our lives we would miss out on unique opportunities to grow in our faith. Thanks for the comment.

Evil exists because this is not the garden of eden. People are evil towards nature, and nature towards people. People are evil towards themselves and others, and nature is evil towards itself and others. "Why?" There is no answer. The reason it's evil is that it's not understandable. Injustice is literally action that isn't logical.

Txgangsta:we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
be cause there was much water there.
to prevent drought, as the First Horseman the oligarchy will bring to the Earth. beware'th sons of Man, of the oligarchy, for of thy future of Man to no longer.
purification.
that of ye and thy people, of everyone in this nation, of in the world, to perform the Ritual of Purification; then of thy world will be saved, and all of Man will not perish, but have of life instead. that all of Mankind will be saved.
Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. and the moderators of this site do not want to be saved, nor of Man to have a chance to be saved, nor of others who turn their back on the Lord at a critical junction in time, of a double jeopardy to Man, to all life on Earth. yet, even when of the murder of God two thousand years agone, the Lord's benevolence is such that the Lord will give to Man a "second chance".
A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.
He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction.
to judge of others, when of ye to also be judged. but of Man, ye shall not to judge, for only God can judge. of thy lack of virtue to shame, of thy purity in sorrow, of the translation of God not known, of that of Heaven not so revealed, not allowed to be spoken. of the "faithless" to have of presendence in thy lands of the wicked, as of wicked as a plague across all the lands of the Earth, of affliction upon thy world.
They tell how you turned to God from idols of the dollar bill which to serve the living as the oligarchy's god instead of the true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, to renew of life upon thy Earth, to raise from the dead that of Man when of thy future of once to perish, to rescue us from the coming wrath of the oligarchy of the wicked black hand of death and the extinction of Man.
of the "chosen", called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanksgiving
4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
for of the righteous and pure of heart and those of the Lord to report what kind of reception you gave us. as God is ominescent, of the Lord's eyes to see all. it was not in thanks for the giving. not in thanks for the Lord. of ye to turn thy back on the Lord.
A Church Divided Over Leaders
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.
Decree of God:
you shall not longer in division and dispute and conflict, of separation and judging, of denominations and of religions.
My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
who is the ruler of law? Absolute Power. the rule of the rich, of the oligarchy. neither in morality of all to break, neither in of any ethical principle whatsoever. neither of any of the laws of God to uphold, nor of any of the laws of thy land, nor of even Constitutional Rights to follow, as of Absolute Power in of no choice, nor of FREEWILL. of a "freewill" to be able to vote for whether we want WW3 or not, whether we want to be poisoned any longer, whether we want of war to always on Earth of every century in Mankind history under the iron handed rule of the oligarchy.
our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord. and a New Age of Man will dawn upon the Earth, if of Man is in FAITH of the Lord, and HOPE that miracles from the Divine Power of God can happen upon the Earth, of billions of souls to be saved.

I've always been interested in a few questions somewhat related to what you're asking.

1. Why is Jesus's victory over death during Easter a big deal? God is all-powerful, controls Death, controls everything. His son being resurrected? That's just another day in the Life of God. So what? But Christianity makes a big deal out of it. God let his son conquer something God made. That's no big deal.

2. If humans are made in God's image, does that mean God poops? This is a serious question in that We have this biological process that God does too. Because God eats and poops, does that mean that he also gets sick and has other more human afflictions?

3. If God is so merciful and wonderful, why go to all this trouble to set up trials and tribulations and tests for people? That sounds more like a 7th grade girl lying to test her friend to see if that friend really likes her or not. What's the point of coming up with the Earth and the universe if people are only going to spend a blink of an eye, 70 years or so, on here and then go to Heaven for eternity? That makes no sense. Just go and create a bunch of good people and let them hang out in Heaven.

Ghostbear1111:             micah7seven, how are you?
hello supernerd, nice to meet you.
            tx, glad you made it.
Hi there Ghostbear my friend,
its really good to see you!
           the moderators on this site said that if you spell the word E.V.I.L. or any other word wrong then you will not be able to post any longer. of Man to turn their back on the Lord, of many to forget of the rest of Man, of many to ignore of death as thy future in error to hold, without of God by thy side to save of thee.
           today, evil supercedes that of the good and just, being greater than the righteous and pure of heart. of the wicked to have of absolute precendece over the good and what is right.
TX
"People are evil towards themselves and others"
"The reason it's evil is that it's not understandable."
if of ye do not of to know of the "why" of evil, then of the King of Kings will not to come to ye, nor to choose of thee.
the King of Kings will choose you first, or God is not known. and if you do not know of the King of Kings, then of God there is none.
FREEWILL, that is thy choice.
Ghostbear
           "Why is Jesus's victory over death during Easter a big deal?"
           so that not of Man to perish, that instead, now of life. of this, the Lord gives to thee, of the King of Kings to Man.
Ghostbear
           "God is all-powerful, controls Death, controls everything."
            God is all powerful, but does not "control", for that is something that of only in Absolute Power does, of the oligarchy in control. for Absolute Power is total control. the oligarchy is the rule of the rich. money is power. in Absolute Power, ye have not of choice. but with God, FREEWILL is always a choice.
Ghostbear
            "So what? But Christianity makes a big deal out of it."
            raising Man from the dead, to be of ressurrected! that is not a big deal? to save thy soul? to save of all of Man?
Ghostbear
            "God let his son conquer something God made. That's no big deal. "
            the King of Kings did not "conqueor". God gave to Man: the King of Kings was a Gift. God forgave Man.
            but God warned of Man two thousand years. God gave Man a warning. today, God is giving to Man a "second chance".
Ghostbear
           "This is a serious question"
           is this of in comedy? this is of the end of Man. this is the Final Test of Man. of Man in the needs to take of this all the more n seriously.
Ghostbear
           "This is a serious question"
           "If humans are made in God's image, does that mean God poops?"
           evil is of thy byproduct. so of ye to of cast this from thyself, so that of ye to have of life.
           for ye do not of to carry of this evil around with of ye, to give of it to others.
           and if of ye are a man who doth in of this action of most foul and disgusting in nature, then of the wicked are thou of heart, of thy soul corrupted.
           with of the evil held in thy hand, to so corrupt of the rest of the world.
Ghostbear
          "does that mean that he also gets sick and has other more human afflictions? "
          today, of there to be of a great affliction upon thy land. of in sickness and ill health to cometh, as of the oligarchy will to bring of the 4 horseman. beware of the oligarchy, for of this curse upon of Man, of harm and suffering and illness to come to Man. beware of this danger.
TX
          "People are evil towards nature, and nature towards people. "
          people are not evil towards nature by their nature, nor of their chosing most of the time. for it is the industrial giants of the corporate world that hath of bad decisions and of global influence, in the negative and of hurtful, to thy world, to all of life. so it is the corporations that are evil. also, of another of evils, is of organizations, whether of secret and not known, or even of the known, for of these also of in evil to thy world, for because of them, of thy world to devastate and harm, of hurts and woes. in general, nature is not evil towards people, for in the wilderness of the animal kingdom, an earthquake has not of much harm upon of thee. and of wind storms and meteorological phenomonen, this is of the rule of the rich to raise of the temperature of the world, and now of greater in the severity and number of windstorms, of floods to increase and drought of the greater, so it is the oligarchy for of life to be harmed all the more, nature merely "reacting" to the evil of Man, of the black hand of wicked of the oligarchy in control to do of this.
TX
          ""Why?" There is no answer."
         the ultimate evil upon this Earth is of a serious concern and danger, as of the 7 Kings are in its pocket. for of the ultimate evil, the oligarchy and the 7 Kings are but a "tool" to do of wicked, and of FREEWILL to be of "no consequence"
TX
         "The reason it's evil is that it's not understandable. Injustice is literally action that isn't logical."
         virtues or a lack of virtues have a physical effect upon all of Life. this is why God is importaint. this is why virtue is needed. so that thy soul can be saved, so that all of Mankind can be saved.
         beware of the oligarchy, for of this curse upon of Man, of harm and suffering and illness to come to Man. beware of this danger.
         this is the truth and the light, as it can be proven to thee scientifically.
Ghostbear
         "If God is so merciful and wonderful, why go to all this trouble to set up trials and tribulations and tests for people? "
         because of a weak man who hast not of the Lord, this makes of them the stronger. and of those of the Lord, this strengthens of their resolve, of their fortitude and the power of the spirit of God within them.
Ghostbear
         "What's the point of coming up with the Earth and the universe if people are only going to spend a blink of an eye, 70 years or so, on here and then go to Heaven for eternity?"
         because of Man, of a life of long upon the Earth, of instant PRIDE and of then of a falling for sure. of Man to "understand" that they are weaker than of God, the Maker of thy universe and of all of creation, including of thy body. and if of life here on the Earth means nothing to ye, nor of saving the souls of men, then Heaven is not for ye, and of thy lack of virtues to close the Gates of Heaven to thee.
Ghostbear
         "That makes no sense. Just go and create a bunch of good people and let them hang out in Heaven."
         that has already been done and it did not of to work out all that well.
Ghostbear, for of evolution is of the greater, of creation thy creation, of God's love, thy love. love of the Lord, and of thy soul will to be saved, and of all Life in this world.
God is a creator, constantly creating and wanting to create, for that is the "passion" of love, to constantly give of it.

Ghostbear1111 :

I apologize for the necropost, but StonWall's post has obvious issues. I'll answer your questions with a little more organization.

1. Why is Jesus victory over death during Easter a big deal? God is all-powerful, controls Death, controls everything. His son being resurrected? That's just another day in the Life of God. So what? But Christianity makes a big deal out of it. God let his son conquer something God made. That's no big deal.

You're right, Christ's victory over the grave isn't unexpected. God is God. Why wouldn't he be able to do such things? The celebration and joy isn't that God won some crazy victory, but that we share in the victory. Because God became man, and that man defeated the grave, it means we now inherit the same victory by being unified to him. So, Christ's resurrection in glory is a foreshadow of our resurrection in glory. We will not be dead forever, and we rejoice in this gift from God.

2. If humans are made in God's image, does that mean God poops? This is a serious question in that We have this biological process that God does too. Because God eats and poops, does that mean that he also gets sick and has other more human afflictions?

I used to ask this too =)

God doesn't poop because he doesn't have a body. Biological organisms need to poop. When God became man, he pooped because he had a biological body. So Jesus pooped and got sick and got tired and forgot things and felt pain, etc. Jesus has a body. I assume that even after resurrection and we all get glorified, perfect bodies, we'll still poop. It's natural and healthy. There's nothing wrong with it, and it cycles back into nature.

3. If God is so merciful and wonderful, why go to all this trouble to set up trials and tribulations and tests for people? That sounds more like a 7th grade girl lying to test her friend to see if that friend really likes her or not. What's the point of coming up with the Earth and the universe if people are only going to spend a blink of an eye, 70 years or so, on here and then go to Heaven for eternity? That makes no sense. Just go and create a bunch of good people and let them hang out in Heaven.

So there's a few things here that the Christian worldview denies. I'm not quite sure where to start, so bare with me.

Christians don't believe in "good people". At least, we don't believe that people are naturally born and have god-like morals. So, no one can actually be created and simply be good and live in heaven with God. We have to live separate from God. This is most easily taught from the Old Testament. God was present in the temple, and people that entered the "holy of holies" without proper ceremony simply died. They actually only entered that room once a year, and they tied a rope around the high priest who went in in case he died (which happened a few times). The analogy often used is that God's holiness is like a roaring fire, and straw cannot enter it's presence, otherwise the straw is burned up. So the question is "how do we become good?", and the answer is not "with lots of hard work". Straw cannot make itself into something else. However, other forces can act upon straw. Over a long period of time, straw can decompose, sink below the surface, and be compressed by the weight and gravity of earth to make a diamond. And a diamond does not burn up in fire. Likewise, the Christian teaching is that Jesus makes us able to be in the presence of God.

I also don't think God puts us through trials and tribulations. I think that, since we're not good people, God just kinda lets nature take its course. We don't naturally want to rely on him; we want autonomy. So he gives it to us. It just so happens it doesn't really work out too well.

Finally, a nit-picky point, the Christian teaching on salvation isn't that we simply go live in heaven. We're not supposed to live in heaven, but on earth. That's what God made us for. Physical bodies are a gift. And, Jesus rose from the grave with his body. If it was all about souls and living in heaven, he could have simply left his body there. What would it have mattered? So the Christian goal isn't to live in heaven, but to live with bodies too.

Txgangsta : It's nice to go back and read what you said, even if the thread hasn't been busy in the past little bit. I appreciate the effort and time and insight you provided for me. It's nice to read something that is well-understood and well-written by someone who takes the time to educate, not sermonize.

Thank you.

You answered my questions very well and I have a better understanding of your viewpoint and of a fair interpretation of what I'm looking for.

I appreciate it.

Well,Tornado,how can you have Good without Evil? Like the yin-yang symbol shows,nothing is completely evil or good.

Oldschool777 :

You can have good without evil just like we have existence without non-existence. Non-existence doesn't need to be real in order to legitimize it. Evil isn't a thing, but it's a privation of goodness.

I know,evil and good are subjective. Today's good may be tomorrow's evil. There is almost no constant with good/evil. What defines good and evil are the times and the circumstances. (I am aware it sounds like the beginning of MGS3,but the MGS series always made you think a bit.)

I don't mean to suggest that good and evil are subjective. "Subjective" means "dependent on the subject", and I certainly don't think that what one ought to choose changes based on the "one" choosing. Circumstance can be objective in this sense. The police officer can speed to chase down a criminal, but that isn't because the law is subjective. Any police officer, regardless of which person is the officer, is permitted to chase down the criminal. The "ought" is circumstantial (it requires some person to be a police officer) but it isn't dependent upon the person per se.

What I actually meant to suggest is that we don't need both good and evil to exist simultaneously in some ying-yang. In order to know there is water in a cup, I don't need to experience a waterless cup also. I can just plainly see.