I wasn't going to post this, but I think it's about time I let my feelings go. If I hold them in, that will just make me angrier and more depressed.

My parents make me go to church, but I'm an Atheist. I revealed this to them about 3 weeks ago. They told the youth pastor and he asked me to type a quick paper on why I'm an Atheist. I typed several of my views, I think the list ended up being about 8 different points/views/contradictions.

I showed it to him and he asked me to expand upon my ideas just a bit more. So I did. I thought about it a bit more, and I came up with this -

Many of you all know that I have Asperger's Syndrome. Although, I am very high-functioning. However, other people aren't as lucky as I am, which is sad. Some babies are born prematurely causing them to either have major disabilities, whether physical or mental. Why? What point is there to make people's lives harder than everyone else? They have done nothing to deserve it, some people weren't even able to crawl properly when they obtained this disability, some weren't even born yet. So why? If God cared so much, why must he make this happen? Either he doesn't exist and this is caused naturally, or he gave it to this person for no reason.

If any of you have a reply or answer to this, please post it. I will greatly appreciate it. This is something I've been thinking of for a long while.

LunarDarkness2 :

First of all, I think that it is unfair that your parents force you to go to church even though you don't want to. I agree that they should be able to have a say in what you do until you are 18 or so, but after that they shouldn't expect you to go to church, unless you want to by yourself. 

It is really sad what so many people go through in the world. Kids and adults alike suffer from hunger and thirst daily. Kids have parents that pass away or are separated and it can be very tough for them. Everyone goes through different struggles in their lives. I have actually asked the same thing you have a few times. I will try to answer your question, but forgive me if I come across as rude in my reply.

I actually googled this online a few months ago as I was going through a relatively tough period in my life. The only answer that made sense to me was that God does not care about our physical being. God cares about everyone, but he wants people to be spiritually good and strong. You can have all the money in the world and be a bad person and get rejected from the Kingdom of God. You can do nothing in your "real life" but be a good person spiritually and you can make it to Heaven. This is why everyone faces hardships(albeit of different degrees of difficulty), to be "tested" by God. I know that sentence sounded very cold, but I didn't know how else to word it. However, this explanation does not explain all of the babies that are aborted or killed during birth. This is a hardship for the parents, but it is very very sad for the baby, who never got a chance to live. 

I heard one other decent explanation to why God lets so many bad things happen. There is so much crime and corruption going on in the world. God doesn't stop a lot of these criminals. God's ways are way above us. God loves us a lot. He had his own son Jesus Christ crucified so he could save the rest of humanity. We cannot even begin to understand why God lets all the bad things that happen in our mortal world. 


I am sorry to anyone this may have seemed rude or insensitive to. I understand this is a very touchy subject and I tried my best to put it in calm, logical worded way.

I hope this helped you Lunar and am sorry if this did not help at all. I will pray that your parents will let you make your own decisions about what you do with your beliefs and religion. 

RDay13 :

I understand all of what you said, and the youth pastor even talked about "free will" that people suffer because of other people's actions. However, I'm talking about what the point of disabilities like severe mental disabilities, to the point where they can't live alone in their life. Why do they exist at all?

LunarDarkness2 :

OK, I guess I originally misunderstood. I know that it is really unfortunate that people have physical and/or mental disabilities. 

Lunar, everyone is handicapped in some way. Nobody on Earth is perfect and has their own strengths and weaknesses. Although it is really hard to deal with Asperger's and Autism, most of the people who have that have other gifts. Almost every person with Asperger's or Autism that I have met are way, way smarter than I am, and I am pretty smart. Everyone has certain weaknesses, or handicaps, and everyone has certain strengths. Some people's handicaps are more apparent than others and it may seem to impact some people more than others, but I guarentee you that every single person on Earth is handicapped in some way, whether it be looks, money, background, etc. 

The cause of this is said to be because of original sin. This was what happened when Adam ate the fruit that Eve gave to him. I know that  it is not fair that a select few are plagued with mental or physical disabilities. I am not saying that the parents of the baby, or the baby itself was responsible for the sin. It was because of Adam's sin thousands of years ago that mankind is stained with sin. 

I hope this explanation is a little bit better than the previous one. 


EDIT: I meant to put this in one of my previous posts, but I wanted to get this out of my system. 
I hate that a lot of  people, (I am not accusing you Lunar), find ways to fault God for shortcomings, yet never thank him for the good things that happen in their lives. 

RDay13 :

Still, just because of one person over a thousand years ago did something means that this person who wasn't even born yet must live their life with being bullied and other things happen to them?

There's this 3 year old kid I know. He is in a specially designed wheelchair that moves on its own. He doesn't have much longer to live. He must suffer with this for the rest of the short time he has. He does not get a second chance. Why must this happen? It just doesn't make sense to me.

LunarDarkness2 :

I know that anything I say from now on, you will have a rebuttal for, so I don't think that I should talk more about this subject anymore unless you want to. If so, we can do it in PM or in Chat. Hopefully, someone else has a better answer than me and helps you out. 

LunarDarkness2 : Okay you got it. Religion is one of the few subject matters I don't discuss too much on here (or on the board at least) mostly because a lot of the people I know here are christians and I know me talking about it likely isn't going to change their mind on things and might just lead to heated discussion that leads to flaming and so on but in this case it seems appropriate.

But I will say I agree with you, it isn't the only reason I'm an atheist  but it is one of several. The conclusion I've come to as far as god regards personally is that he either does not exist or if he does exist he does not seem like a very just god with morals I can agree with it. Essentially no life isn't fair we see examples of this every day, people being born in countries in Africa, dying from starvation, struggling for food, people suffering from the terror reign of groups like ISIS, then there's countries like India where people, even children are forced to work in small factories for no pay not being free to leave making clothes for us in the western world. In some places due to starvation or other effects like being affected by nuclear radiation people are born so disfigured that even life becomes like a living hell. Essentially we're all at least lucky for being born somewhere where you can still be relatively free compared to the rest of the world and in most cases don't have to worry about things like starvation or having your freedom taken away.

I have a lot of reasons for why I find Christianity and the bible illogical like how I'd say it contradicts itself several times but I think I'll just share some more general thoughts on the concept of god.

 I've said this is how he supposedly has the ability to somewhat see in the future, meaning the moment you are born god would instantly know how you will live your life and if you'll end up in heaven or hell. But if that's the case then I don't see what the point of life in the first place is, where god is essentially forcing you to life through this uncertainty when your fate is already sealed.

In fact I find the whole thing sort of morbid. None of us chose to be brought into existence he simple create us and then does what he likes with us let us live our lives and then sentences us to heaven or hell however he wants to when people can't really help it because they are a certain way by nature, he was the one who created us with the ability to sin in the first place, he made us flawed. He could've created us all without the ability to sin and we would all live happily but he supposedly didn't for some reason It really seems to me that we'd be "god's toys" more than anything else if he does exists.

My conclusion though is really that it's more likely just to be an explanation for what happens to you after death, there isn't really any way we can tell whether he exists or not but I'd make the argument that he wouldn't have had to for the world to make sense, it's pretty simple, people say someone must've created the world but by that logic someone must've created god, but for some reason people won't apply that same logic to god, perhaps because the thought is just a more comfortable one to hold and you do so because it's convenient. Really though either some thing came from nothing whether that was god or the universe, or something has always existed, neither makes god the logical answer outright because it doesn't actually solve any questions.

We were scared of dying therefore we created someone that would look after us that would make everything alright after we die. I personally have come to accept death being permanent. Sure it may be a scary thought when you're still alive or close to dying but you won't know if you're dead when you're dead therefore you can't be sad about it, you simply cease to exist and so will everyone some day all the more reason to enjoy life while you can in my book.

Still I know people are going to disagree with me on this, surely some of the more devout christians as well of which there are several on the site, and might start a debate but that wasn't really my intention. I just thought as an atheist myself and someone who is very set in that belief I'd share some of the main points that have made me reach that conclusion perhaps it'll help you feel more secure in your belief. If you do want to discuss religion I don't mind that either I typically like having discussions. Just remember while you may already know this I want to say it again, there's nothing wrong with being atheist, despite what some may think or say. People may try to make you change your mind but if they truly care about you to they'll come to accept it eventually and respect that belief. Just remember to do the same. Respect other people for being christian and they'll do the same in most cases even if they don't understand. I think most people know I'm an atheist one way or another by now yet I'm still able to get along with the vast majority of people, and those who I completely disagree with on every aspect of life I simply respect their right to hold that belief and move on.

While those really extremists christian who look down upon someone for not believing in god are annoying, so are those atheists who simply say anyone who isn't an atheist is stupid for reference see a lot of the atheist+ crowd or the comment section of any atheist youtuber, like the amazing atheist or sometimes the youtubers themselves. Personally a reason I don't watch people like that, sure they can help you decide on things when you're unsure they certainly did for me, but in the long run they only fed my ego and made me look down upon religious people, it's substituting, in stead of making up your mind about things yourself you're going along with what those people are saying in stead of say a priest or god.

That's just me though. You'll find that a lot of christians may dislike atheists simply because they think they're all like those obnoxious people, while they still might not fully understand you, showing that you're not like that may lead them to think differently about atheists and in some cases even doubt if everything is as black and white as they first thought.

Hi

Personally I just wanted to say that the fact it's a "rant" at all is dumb.

The debate / logic / news discussion is for discussion. Discussions are serious conversations that are taken from a calm and rational point, unlike rants and tangents.

I just wanted to say that. tbh I only read a couple of words but just had a pet peeve over rants in this forum

Also pet peeves don't belong here as getting "peeved" isn't rational or calm in any way

Bye

yoshirulez! :

Yeah, that title is misleading and I'm probably going to change it soon. It's not really a "rant" at all to be honest. I had a headache while making this. Whoops.

LunarDarkness2 :
Zlinqx :

Since you too cover mostly the same topics, I'll address you both here at the same time, though this is more an Lunar than anyone else. I just thought you'd want to see my post Zlinqx.

I quite seriously debating in this forum for the longest time. . . because of TPs, and the new, wonderful dislike, ect. Long story short, I decided fanfiction was a much better use of my time. . . and that eventually turned into a potential career of writing. But that's that.

If I happen to take a really long time to reply in this forum, please be patient with me. I have several different things to do, and prolonging a debate is often a pointless waste of time, but I think you too would at least consider what I've found when looking into this.

I've actually thought along the same topic myself for a long time. Since I was very young, but willing to go deeper than the NT and gospel of John for my answer I found what I conclude to be some logical solutions for you guys. . . just know this could take a loooooonnnggg wall of text, and then even more waiting for me to get back to you, if you wanna go the whole nine yards.

Generally I like to stick to simple answers. . . but answers can bring up even more questions. . . yadda yadda yadda. You get the drill, so let's start.

I know there are a number of verses Christians like to quote which state that God knew them in the womb and made them specifically the way that He did with a purpose in mind. I actually have a qualm against this, because of the two verses actually used to support it.

Take Jeremiah 1:5 for example. It's popularly quoted as saying:

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart

Christians then move forward to suggest that this applies to all of us. . . well, guess what. It could easily only apply to Jeremiah himself and perhaps a few other prominent Biblical figures. (John the Baptist.) If we read it in actual context a lot more is brought to light.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+1&version=CJB

“Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you;
before you were born, I separated you for myself.
I have appointed you to be a prophet to the nations.”

Just because God says something to one person regarding their life, does not mean that it applies to all of us. Jeremiah was a very special person with a specific task as explained here. I will not say that I don't believe Yahova set's people apart for certain tasks, but those people. . . are those who have been set apart. Not everyone it set apart, or else there wouldn't be anyone BE set apart from.

The other commonly used verse comes from Psalms 139:13-14


For you fashioned my inmost being,
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I thank you because I am awesomely made,
wonderfully; your works are wonders —
I know this very well.


Now, this verse is actually a potentially contending factor with the fact that people are born with varying issues. However, it should be noted that Psalms was written mostly by Kind David of Yisrael, and a smaller portion of them were made by varying sages/wismen/morah's.

That God creates everyone in the womb is true at least in an indirect fashion. He made our bodies which are capable of doing it, but it's a couple. . . or late night partyer's choice to conceive a child. God doesn't choose when humans procreate. The humans do.

If you wanna argue on predestination. . . I actually did find one article I could hot link to you. No, I don't use articles, I don't even care to parrot other peoples research and opinions that much. I use the internet pretty exclusively to research the strength of OTHER people's opinions. My own opinions are generally from first person thought and experience, or at least based on much cross referenced material. The end trial for me is if it stands up to everything else I know to be true on a local level of experience. . . but I'm getting off topic.

If you want to read that I can give it too you, just know it's a LOOOONNGGG read because Predestination has lots of support in the Bible. . . . and 10x as many verses against it thanks to our wonderful English translations which is a Greek language and seems to fail a lot on transcribing Hebrew concepts.

It's annoying.

My point is, it's the parents choice to conceive a child- most of the time.

Sometimes the woman is forced into it. Which makes it the man's fault, but my point is, people choose to have and make babies.


In the Torah, (First five books of the Bible, including the moral law reiterated by Moses along with the ten commandments.) Yahova gave us a string of marriage laws instructing us on how to treat our wives, get married, and it applies several sexual restrictions. These include the illegalizing of having sex with your sister, your mother, your father's sister, or your father's mother, and so on. Same sex marriage is forbidden along with bestiality. Even masturbation makes necessary going through a cleanliness process lest one person spread it (the uncleanliness) to the entire camp, though the penalty for failure to do so is not listed.

We know the results of inbreeding. Inbreeding creates genetic issues with your children and. . .



Oh my. . .


*cough ahem cough*

No one questions the bad things that inbreeding will do. Who get's blamed for it when children are born with defects with the case of inbreeding? Not God- the parents, of course.

And, they often should.


Isn't it interesting how we hold the parents accountable in this situation rather than Yahova? He made the Universe, He made the rules. People violated them, and brought suffering to others on account of it.

This is a very common thing we see happening in the world. Even in countries we call our own, not just within the violent bounds of ISIS. People take advantage of one another. They hurt people within the same species and hope to profit happiness or better living out of the ordeal. Even though we have a number of instincts, our minds, and Yahova's Torah to guide us on how to live. People keep doing whatever's cheap and not thinking about it much. That's what you can find at the foundation of pretty much every sin.

Looking to fulfill a desire by taking a shorter path which is ultimately unwise and more detrimental to yourself and other humans in the short of long run.

People say it's horrible that Yahova gave us the choice between right and wrong. But being able to choose wrong is what makes it possible for us to choose right. If there was no wrong, then right would lose it's distinction. It's like trying to have heat without cold. Or light without darkness. If there are not alternatives, then a state or object cannot exist.

And Yahova did not make a monochromic, stale universe. Yahova made a Universe with many variable states and choices. You will find all your choices have consequences or benefits. Immediately or within ages. The most pressing of these choices are the moral ones you make, and how they will affect your judgement on the resurrection day. I'm more worried about my eternal existence afterword than the life that I have right here. Though I certainly hope to do the best that I can at everything I do while I am living. The Bible praises diligence and working with your hands too after all. It's more than just a book on moral codes.

But, when it comes to the question of. "Why are people born with disabilities?" It all comes back to the same problem that man has always had. Man is living in a world where you can choose to keep the Teaching of Yahova, or deny it. He made the place. He knows how it works. You might think that these laws are silly some of the time, and I would praise those who wish to remain skeptical and wish to try things with their mind. I've spent a good portion of my life reading just the first five books in the Bible and only parts of the New Testament. (I have read a good number of books from it though- each one only about once however.) I honestly think that the laws Yisrael was given were pure genius.

Sometimes it takes a while for science to catch up with the Bible. There was a time when modern science agreed with many of the cleanliness laws and Jews historically have been the richest people on the Earth, if not disease free.

There could be many different factors of sin throughout our living today which slowly ticks on those who are made. But even that's probably only half of it.

One thing Yeshua said when the apostles asked him about a blind man. I quote John 9:

As Yeshua passed along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His talmidim asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned — this man or his parents — to cause him to be born blind?”3 Yeshua answered, “His blindness is due neither to his sin nor to that of his parents; it happened so that God’s power might be seen at work in him. 4 As long as it is day, we must keep doing the work of the One who sent me; the night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”


Some people say that this is a cruel fate God would give on man just so that they could be used as an "example" However, I have a feeling this was only the beginning of this person's life.

In history we've seen time and time again where people with some major disability. . . even mental problems go higher than any of their aquaintences had ever gone before. It's a reoccurring thing, which I think acts as a sort of payback for any suffering you've endured.

Think of Job.

I wanted to say this to you Lunardarkness. I take note of a lot of people, and often think of where they'll be someday. You may have Aspesters or whatever, but I can see the potential in yah. Just don't give up, and try to be a less despairing person than I am sometimes. (I'm working on that. At least I never let despair stop me from going where I knew I should go. BTW, a lot of this is an act. I just like pretending to be this way. It makes people mess with you a lot less too. A good trait to have in the debate forum. I'm not really that glum. )

Let me tell you some things about my life. I (used too) sleep in a moldy bedroom and lay my head on a barely molding pillow. It's not even my families fault, because my dad and grandfather. . . they had money Lunar. They build 6 condominiums, and were gonna make a few million dollars. . . then the economy crashed in 2008, so they didn't sell and we never got out of our trailer house. But it made me mindful of something growing up. Money. I'm not exactly someone whose desperate. Just biding his time and trying to be wise.

But, I'll brag of my own account when I've really made it. Looking forward to see how things turn out too.


Oh, BTW, look into how our food has affected us nowadays. diet from a young age and with conceiving parents isn't nearly as good as it was 50 years ago. But that's just another huge topic I don't think I can handle this late at night. XP


Hope that helps yah. I figured you deserved a long answer since your a friend on here. Otherwise I may not have posted so much as 500 words. Ah well. XP

Sword legion : Remember you asked for this <.< >.>

Still your post serve to prove one of several points for why I will never become a christian or a follower of any other abrahamic religion for that matter, the contradictions. And while people can argue that the contradictions are simply based on how you interpret it if it is truly the word of god there really shouldn't be any room for interpretation in the first place. I know some people argue it's because of bad translations but really in most cases that seems like a convenient excuse to make to people who don't know hebrew to try and instantly refute anything they may say.

Even so I've spoken to people who do and I still find things that don't make sense, if I were to learn hebrew I highly doubt everything is suddenly going to become completely clear and there are still many things that are questionable about it from a moral standpoint and even IN that extremely unlikely case many people never have the chance to learn hebrew so I suppose that's suddenly tough luck? And it doesn't seem right that you should have to learn an entirely new language for a belief to make sense.

I've heard the "it's the parents choice to conceive a child" counter argument several times for people born with disabilities. That doesn't excuse things in my opinion, a child should not be punished for the actions of their parents that is unjust and in my honest and frankly blunt opinion despicable considering some people have disabilities or conditions so severe that even just getting through the day becomes a constant struggle of near endless suffering. Some who are mentally impaired would likely even struggle to understand the concept of religion, I don't see how that would be doing the work of god. Sure Job according to the bible may have gone further than any of his predecessors had before him, but that isn't the reality for most people living with disabilities. Stephen Hawking one of the most famous and succesful people with a disability to live is perhaps one of the most famous atheists out there.

I'm kind of confused about what inbreeding has to do with this, one may be born with defects because of that but two perfectly normal people with the same genes suddenly deciding to have a child together very rarely causes problems. Short term incest (as in not having gone on for several generations) while not exactly healthy is not very dangerous most of time, I'm not encouraging it mind you just dispelling a myth. The severe effects of incest come from doing so for several generations that's why it's something you have often seen the effects of within various royal families, because it was custom to always marry within the family. Even so most people with birth defects don't have them because of inbreeding but because of harmful mutations, often caused by the mother or father not being healthy living in starvation, having been in accidents like being exposed to nuclear radiation etc. or sometimes simply because of bad luck.

Making homosexuality be a sin is again another paint of unfairness. It's something you either born as or not, thus it won't really require any effort for some to avoid but for others it will be a constant struggle, again why let people be born homosexual when it's supposedly a sin and all it does is give them another obstacle in life? People commit suicide because they think it's wrong and can't take the discrimination of those living around them, again certainly does not seem like the actions of a just god.

My point still stands, about a god supposedly creating us with the ability to sin in the first place. The right or wrong would exist because based on religious standards it's decided by god something would still be wrong even if no one is doing it because he said so. Take people with severe mental illness like sociopaths, psychopaths, pedophiles, creating people like that, who are essentially doomed the day they are born does not seem like the actions of a benevolent or just god. They ruin the lives of others and while someone will likely argue that's the fault of those people, they can't help it, it's simply how they are, they were born that way and unless you isolate them from the day it becomes apparent they're going to act on it eventually. Then again I'd argue a god who allows people to be born into poverty and starvation only to die shortly after proves that point as well.

There is no reason for a god to create us and make us suffer other than for his own amusement. I know some people claim it's because he wants to have a relationship with us but if that's the case that would show he'd also be subject to human emotions and desires seeking love, making him seem really like a flawed being and not one that would be all knowing and morally just again to me at last only making it seem more likely that he'd be created by humans because we are drawn to what is similar. Not to mention letting people rot in hell for all eternity if they don't do what you want them to do and at the same time claiming you want to have a loving relationship with them... Kind of seems like an abusive relationship.

As for food standards today compared to how it used to be... Well let's just say that's a whole other debate I would be able to have with you.

I know the pain of being forced to go to church and props to telling your parents that you are an atheist  but at least your parents arent so religious nutty that they would disown you for being an atheist ( i know many peoples parents including mine who would do that).
Though i never understood whats wrong with not believing in a god and why cant we just leave each other be and not treat em any different.

I hear questions like this a lot. I don't have all of the answers however. I see it like this.

God cares about you despite the Aspergers. I don't think He personally gave this to you. James 1:16 tells us "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning."
It is my belief that mental disabilities aren't from or of God. It is a consequence of sin's existance. The same reason there are natural disasters, suffering, and death. These weren't part of God's original plan. It is unfair, it sucks. I struggle with mental issues myself.

To kind of sum up my rambling...This is something that God never intended for you to have. But sin and corruption tainted what was once a perfect world. This isn't your fault, or your parent's exactly. We are all caught up in this to some degree. But God works through these situations to bring you closer to Him.

I am sorry that you suffer like this. I wish there was something better for you. But from my own research, and asking for other's thoughts; this is the best answer that I can give.

This may not exactly be the answed you would like. And I'm sorry if there's any chance this came off as rude.

There is nothing really wrong about being an atheist. Now, I am a Christian myself and I'm not offended for what you wrote. I do have a belief that God exist, but I don't get angry at someone who says he doesn't. I rarely even go to church and even if I did, It would be for a funeral or a wedding of a family member. My step dad is an atheist himself. I know how you feel about having a disability and feeling depressed and angry most of the time. It's the same thing with me except I don't have asperger's but I do have autism and get depressed easily. I was born with a sick heart in which I was about to die the same day of my birth. I did get a transplant though. Unfortunately, I'm getting off the subject here. I do think it is absolutely wrong for parents to force their sibling to go to church or even have a religion. Not only is it wrong and utterly deviant, it's also a violation of human rights. I am glad that you've stepped in and told your parents for what you truly believed in. It's your rights not theirs.

By the way Sword legion that picture made me laugh. lol

I know how you feel, my parents did the same thing.  I don't have anything against it, or the people who believe. With things like this, you have to do what you feel is right. I hate to say most of my adult meetings with christens has been less then unpleasant.

LunarDarkness2 : Hi Lunar.  Since I am a Christian and since you have specified
Christianity in your topic and the tone of your post really "sounded"
sincere, I felt compelled to reply.  I have posted something on Autism
in the Christian Conservatives forum before and although, from my
limited understanding, Autism is not Asperger's Syndrome, there are
similarities.  In the end it comes down to the same thing - a mental
disability.  So to get straight to it - Why you?  What's the purpose of
this in my life?  What have I done to deserve this?  Why do I have to be
different than others?  This is just not fair.  The natural reaction -
blame the Creator.   After all, it is He who made you / us, right?  So
in your heart you build up a resistance against Him, against the Church
and Christians in general - the core reason (I believe) of your decision
to choose to become an Atheist.  There cannot possibly be another
explanation for this, so it HAS to be God's fault.  A quick side note -
There's just one problem with this whole reasoning.  An atheist do not
believe in the existence of ANY god let alone the God who made
heaven and earth, so how on earth can you blame God if you don't even
believe in His existence?  A predicament of some sorts.. Who or what do
you blame then?  Evolution?  The reality is Lunar - you do believe in
God or at least that there is one.  I might be wrong, and I've already
said this, but because of your condition, you have loaded and directed
all your frustrations on Him because you don't understand it and you
don't have answers - you have rebelled against God in your heart and
therefore chose to ignore His existence.  I am not here to give you
answers, but I hope and pray that what's written below can shed a little
bit of light on the situation.  So if you are truly sincere and looking
for answers, read on, but if you have just posted this to get your
thread count up, you might as well stop reading now.
Anyway, I
honestly do not want to sound lazy, but I also really do not want to
re-type word for word from my previous post in Christian Conservatives
here, so I have simply copied and pasted it.  Sorry about that, but I'm
married with kids, therefore time is a precious commodity in my
household   Here goes:

"I haven't had any experience or exposure to someone with autism (or Asperger's syndrome), so I'm
not even going to pretend to know what I'm talking about.  However, my
wife is a teacher with a degree in educational psychology and she had
extensive experience with kids with this disability, so it is from that
angle where I am coming from.  Looking at this from a Christian
perspective, I can understand that this condition will make it
particularly difficult for individuals to obey God in specific ways. 
For example - It may affect how a person shows love (to others and to
Him) God wishes for us or it can even make it hard to forgive others and
have healthy relationships, which is the foundation of the Christian
life.  This might also make certain scriptural guidelines harder
to live up to, specifically guidelines regarding what the Bible says
about appropriate behavior and feelings.  In the Bible you can read in
detail in Genesis about the Original Sin, but in short - when Adam
sinned, death entered the world.  Adam and Eve were expelled from the
garden of Eden as they had exchanged their life in paradise for a
curse.  They were cursed, their bodies were cursed and the earth was
cursed.  Thousands of years and hundreds of generations later, we are
the heirs of that curse.  Our bodies, despite medical science, are even
more susceptible to disease than Adam and Eve's were.  Our DNA after
generations of radiation an chemical exposure is riddled with defects. 
Our society is so saturated with sin and our souls are so easily trapped
that our actions can alter our physiology in such a way that sin
becomes even more natural.

This however is no surprise to God.  He knows that our
sin and physiology are sometimes connected.  God acknowledges this in
Genesis 3:16 when He told Eve that her sin would affect the relationship
between women and their husbands.  God knows that sin - whether our own
sin or the sin of others -  can change us in such a way that following
His standards become more difficult as I have already mentioned. 
Despite all of this the thing to realize is these mental conditions is
nothing compared to the power, love and grace of God.  Romans 8:38-39
says, "For I am convinced that neither
death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor
things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other
created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which
is in Christ Jesus, our Lord."  God knows our physical state
and our difficulties and He knows our mental and emotional capacities,
but we are ALL pre-conditioned to sin.  God knows our limitations, but
as a Christian, you are still expected to obey Him.  He knows our
starting point as damaged people and His promises of hope and healing
are just as applicable to someone with autism or another mental disorder
as they are to anyone else.  Once again - everyone on this planet is
predisposed to rebel against God and live a life of sin.  Sometimes that
predisposition has a name and medical significance and sometimes it
doesn't.  However, in God's eyes there are only two types of people -
those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior and those who
haven't.  No brain chemistry, no imperfect
mental development and no emotional damage can keep us from the love of
God.  Only continued rejection of His offer of salvation. God knows our
weaknesses and salvation is not based on our strengths - it is based on
His."

Your youth pastor is dead right - free will.  You have a
choice how to handle your condition.  All I know from experience in my
own life and I know this sounds like a stuck record - God does not do
anything without a purpose and He does not make junk, regardless of what
atheists or any other non-believer may think.  Just ask Nick Vujicic. 
You might have heard of him.  Yes, he does not have a mental disability,
but the dude was born with NO arms and NO legs, but he CHOSE to turn to
God and trust in Him.  Check it out.

PS - What's up with the weird formatting (random spaces etc.) when you edit stuff??  Sorry about that...

SoL@R :

"Either he doesn't exist and this is caused naturally, or he gave it to this person for no reason."

Note the text in bold.

That video made me cry. I can't imagine how hard it must be to live like that. I appreciate that you typed all of that up, I really do.

However, I still don't quite understand this. Why have sin in the first place? If he is a God that cared for us so much, why would he put us on this planet in the first place?

By the way, Asperger's Syndrome is on the higher-functioning end of the autism spectrum.

https://gyazo.com/eb4373dbe30d338c365f659a055b8234

PS Response - No idea. I didn't make this layout.

LunarDarkness2 :   "Why have sin in the first place?"  To answer that you need to know first of all that God is omniscient.  That means He knows the future.  He is outside of time and thus not bound to it, so it begs the question:  If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin and that their sin would lead to all mankind and the earth being cursed, why did He create them in the first place?  Well, God could have made us all robots to do His bidding at a press of a button or whatever, but what purpose would that serve?  God wants you to choose Him and to love Him out of your own free will.  That is why He made us to choose for ourselves and that includes Adam and Eve.  Unfortunately they chose to sin.  Now please note that Adam and Eve's falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin or that He tempted them to sin.  The Bible says in James 1:13 - "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He Himself tempts no one."  However, the fall of mankind does serve the purpose of God's overall plan for creation and mankind and this is where the part comes in why you were created.

God's purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in ALL its fullness.  The glory of God stands at the centre of creation.  In fact, it is the main goal of everything He does.  All things were created by Him and for Him (Colossians 1:16).  You were created for His pleasure and this does not mean that you were made to entertain God or provide Him with amusement.  God is a creative Being and it gives Him pleasure to create.  He is also a personal Being and it gives Him pleasure to have other beings He can have a genuine relationship with.  Being made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27), you and I have the ability to know God and therefore love Him, worship Him, serve Him and fellowship with Him.  He did not create us because He needed us.  As God, He needs nothing.  God is eternal and in all eternity past He felt no loneliness, so He was not looking for a "friend".  He loves us, but this is not the same as needing us.  If we had never existed, God would still be God.  He is unchanging (Malachi 3:6) and He is never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence.  When He made you and the universe, He did what pleased Himself and since God is perfect, His actions was perfect.  Genesis 1:31 says "It was very good".

Also, God did not create beings equal to Himself.  If you think logically about it, He could not do so.  If God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence and perfection, then He would cease to be the one true God for the simple reason that there would be two gods and that would be impossible.  The Bible says in Deuteronomy 4:35, "The LORD is God; besides Him there is no other"  Anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He.  The thing made can never be greater than, or as great as the One who made it.

So, since God made everything including you for His glory, He demands, seeks and requests our worship because He deserves it and because our eternal destiny depends upon it.  Hold on.  That sounds a bit arrogant, doesn't it?  That's a fair and honest question - with respect, a bit ignorant, but honest just the same.  I want to quote a blog post by Chris Poblete on the Blue Letter Bible BLOG that answers this beautifully:

"Why does God require that we revere Him?  The sin of pride is only a sin when it involves raising the perception of our value above that which it truly is.  For man this is a fairly common event.  We are constantly trying to be better than others and elevating ourselves in our own estimation.  We, being corrupt and petty, have an almost insatiable appetite for valuing ourselves more highly than we ought and this is impossible for God to do.  God being the literal model of perfection cannot be better than He is.  In fact, nothing can.  You cannot improve upon perfection.  Since God is perfect, there is neither anything wrong with His acknowledging such, nor any reason He should not require worship.  God is infinitely worthy of both our honor and glory.  He is the only being who deserves our praise.  For Him to allow that anything else can be praised in His place would demonstrate Him to be less than perfect.  It would be as if He were saying, "Yes, I truly am the only thing in all existence that is worthy of exaltation; but 'No', I don't mind that you exalt a reddish-brown brick over Me."  Now that would just be silly, wouldn't it?"

Again, God foresaw Adam and Eve's fall which led to all of creation being cursed (sickness, death, earthquakes, floods, autism, oppression of the poor and needy etc).  He created them anyway in His own image to bring glory to Himself and they were given freedom to make choices.  Even though they chose to disobey, their choice became the means which God's ultimate will was carried out and by which His full glory will be seen one day and you too can see it one day if you choose to. 

I hope all this makes a bit of sense.  Pls PM me if you're still wondering about stuff.  I'll gladly "listen"

Zlinqx :

Well, it's not interpretation as much as it is translation. The Catholic Church has changed a lot in the original scriptures, and the King James version just has flat out mistakes. I assure you, in the original Hebrew it's not like that, although there always will be those who try and twist the message.

The Hebrew language is simply amazing. The way it's built, and how moral concepts are basically engraved into the language itself is incredible. It's as though it actually is the perfect language, and I'm willing to bet that it is the original one we had before the Tower of Babel, though we see many similar traits carried in Eastern and Middle Eastern cultures. Even American Indian.

Take the word for love and obligation for example. The words are heavily rooted into one another because there mere difference in their structure is the changing of one vowel pointing.

In fact, when the Torah was written, there were very small marks made to specific words in only one instance just to let people reading know that something different was going on here from usual. That's where a few oral traditions come in to fill in the gaps, since the story of Creation, ect was passed down orally originally.

When a child is born with a disability, it's not a form of punishment. It's just a natural consequence because either mother and father's genes aren't masking one another's deficiencies, or she didn't eat what she should have been during conception/poor diet.

Both easily could be avoided. Then there is the Bible verse which I quoted earlier. (John 9. We'll get into that later. )


Inbreeding is just an example of how people can cause their children problems at birth. Yet no one holds Yahovah accountable for it. Instead, they hold the parents accountable. Which makes sense.

In fact, a great number of things involved in healthy childbearing is natural. A mother's cravings, the repulsiveness humans have toward the thought of mating with their sister or someone of the same gender

Plenty of natural instincts there helping us out. However our diets today really aren't what they used to be. If not that, then John 9 can be a good reference point. (Read it again.) Stephen Hawkings is a great example. I know he doesn't serve Yahovah, but his achievements are incredible if not impressive. Often, those with a disability become specialists in their own unique fields. One common example is people who go blind developing extremely good hearing or other outstanding abilities. (Including painting.) They have the attention of the world and often get somewhere in life. It's something I tell myself if I'm tempted to complain about anything that I might have wrong. Either way, I know that all actions affect people, and even if it takes generations to show up, any number of things could have gone wrong to cause my grief today if it's purely genetic.

A lot of minor "genetic" issues are really just diet related though.

Glutten. Best stuff ever.


I would press you to prove that homosexuality is something you're actually born with. But I think this topic is best kept focused on what we have.

Many of the mental issues you mentioned are developed behaviors, not genetically determined issues. (Pedophiles ect.)


-- Okay, the ability to sin.

I have one question to ask you. If you did not have the ability to sin, would you really be a person? If you could never do something wrong, what does that mean for your thought process? That you just can't think it? The thought wouldn't even cross your head?

The ability to sin, is the ability to choose.

Here's the difference between humans and AI programs. AI programs "learn" But they do everything according to a predictable algorithm. Humans do not. They have spirits which allow them to take part in reshaping the world according their personal desire. A personal desire which they can even change if they wish over time.

I don't understand why having the choice behind right and wrong makes God evil. He also gives us a choice to be lazy or not. We can even be smart. . . or stupid. We make choices that harm us, and others. Morality is nothing but another way we effect others and ourselves in this world like economics, though breaking morality is far more severe, and often the basis for all other human principles and acts.


When Yahovah made humans, he made humans in his own image. That is why humans, and other things in creation hold similar characteristics to Yahovah. All artwork is an expression of it's creator. But the children who live in their father's masterpiece will still do as they please based upon their own will.

But anyways.

Basically, this argument is gonna boil down to two things, if I'm right.


1. You want to know why Yahovah creates a Universe where bad things are possible, and attack that as a design flaw, showing that Yahovah is not who He claims to be. Or you would even use this as a basis to say that Yahovah is evil.


2. Therefore, my job is to show you why things are not so unfair? Right? Isn't that the basis of the argument?



-- In the end of it all


Yahovah made you as a human being, with the power to do something that very little of His creation can do. You can defy the will of your creator.

I do not know why Yahovah gave us this ability, but I think that one purpose of this ability may be to prove to us that we are not some mindless slaves (This is probably not the only function though). I think it might be so that we know that we are in fact individual, real, people. So that we're not some simulation that just does whatever, it's like. . . the hiccup that proves just who and what we are. And then tells us sternly;

"You have the power to choose and to shape this Universe. You will be held accountable for everything you do in it. For how it affects you, and how it affects others."

No, this is not an easy Universe to live it. There are trials, and you might even get killed by someone before you are even born.

You cannot have light without the dark, and you cannot have heat without cold. There has to be an opposite for each possibility, whether that possibility is actually conceived or not. Gladness and hate, ect, it


But, in the end, Yahovah's son, Yeshuah, the Messiah will come down through the clouds and establish the thousand year reign. The dead will be resurrected and judged. For every action that they did, and every word which came up from their mouth. The wise will shine like stars and be handed crowns. Some will be made as rulers over ten, and other's a thousand. Then the devil will be bound up and cast into the lake of fire, it is the second death, and the destination of those who do evil.

All will be made right, and those who endured the greatest of adversity shall be rewarded. Some in life, others in the second life.

Look at Job. He may have lost everything, but he got twice as much before the end. And it was not Yahovah's doing, but rather the work of Hasatan which made him suffer. Even he was repaid back in life. How much greater will our reward be if we must wait till our resurrection for our payment?

I tell you this, that Yahovah let some people receive relief in this life, so that we might know he makes good on His word and always will keep the covenant of those who serve Him.

Some are rewarded in life, other's in death. Is it a difficult thing for Yahovah to pay us back after we have been resurrected? Certainly not! But I tell you this. In John 9 we are told that some people suffer adversity not from the sins of their parents, or even those around them, but rather so that they could be healed and the world would look upon them in awe. If Yahovah sets certain people aside for suffering now, but to be blessed later, then that person shall indeed be blessed! Even Moses and Elisha endured years of pain because they stood for the truth and were willing to minister it to their fellow human beings. And it was counted as righteousness unto them.

I pray that everyone could avoid such adversity, but I also pray that the will of Yahovah is executed perfectly. think of it like a turn based RPG where you get a certain class unit which starts weak, but becomes really powerful at the end. Yahovah is not unfair. Not in the least, but He does have a special place for each person, and suffering will never be the totality of our lives. Not one person suffered for every single day of their life in the scriptures which we have been given.

Just know that Yahovah will be no man's debtor. And he will operate by the principles he has laid out in the Torah, for this is the standard for righteousness.

Now, the question I ask is this. If Yahovah has given us the book to live by, and if Yahovah loves each and every one of his children, would He not give them more than good things? Yes, Yahovah gives us good gifts and allows us to experience hardship which we are to pass. Some of it is preordained by another creature. Others are caused by spirits. But the word of Yahovah will stand tall and exalt itself by all of these measures. And we will have the light that guides us. The instruction book for living in this trial some life, and even to become prosperous if only our fellow man is open.

There are those who are like Hitler, whom were evil till the very end. But then there is Pharaoh, ruler of Egypt, whom was not as ignorant as people may think. Joseph, he was sold into slavery by his own brothers, accused of cheating on his slave master's wife, and finally thrown into prison. However, by hard work, and with help from Yahovah, Joseph made his way to the top of the prison. Being hired as it's organizer, and eventually being led to interpret Pharaoh's dream. Saving all of Egypt from a famine. His family, and become the second most powerful ruler in the land. The Egyptian records found from that time period refer to Joseph as Zatinaph Pneneah. (Think I spelled it right wrong. )

Yeup, I did. Here's the proper name. Zaphenath-paneah.

Wow. . . that was way off.

Throughout the Bible we see time and time again, where someone has gone through adversity. But by remembering who was on their side, and by heading the commands of Yahovah, they were able to overcome it and be greater than any other human. Whether they were rewarded in this life, or in the after life matters little in the grand scheme of things. This world is just a test. It is the ultimate test which hangs shy of eternity and the second life under Messiah. The time is coming when all will be paid back. But we shall not be judged on where we start in life, or what we are able to obtain. Rather, we will be judged upon based on our actions and our heart. This life is about how you react to the environment you have been placed within. Lucky spawn, or not so lucky. (Game over, aborted before birth!) You will be judged by the actions, and the choices of your heart. Then you will reap your reward.

This is not to detract in any way from what this world could, or should be. We still have much work to do, and I intend to speak to as many people as I am able about our Father who is in Heaven. If Yahovah is pleased to make an example out of me for righteousness, then I would allow it. But thankfully this life I have been given is not one of persecution, but of reasonable sustenance all factors considered. I am thankful for where I am, and I shall not be greedy. The hardships I have endured will only serve to make me stronger, and by reacting the right way, I increase my rewards for the future. But most of all, I want to save people. In this life and the next, so that is why I do the things that I do.

That is my understanding of this topic.


SoL@R :

If God knows everything you are going to do, before you do it, then that means you were going to do what you were going to do before you were even born. You can't have free will then, everything you were going to do was preregistered. It's impossible for us to be held accountable. We're merely dominoes falling over thanks to the last input. You can't have both Humans who have Free Will and a God who knows what they're going to do absolutely.


LunarDarkness2 :

You know, there's a lot of adversity in life but read what I had to say above. I think there's a lot more meaning to it because of the choices Yahovah made in developing it. And no, He didn't know everything you were going to do before you did it. That belief is just pure evil and not in scripture. (not attacking Solar, just saying. If I can get away with saying something like that and not provoke hard feelings. )

You have a lot of potential, like I said. I'm not much for seeing it, but I think it's there. No, I can TELL it's there. Look what you've done on Vizzed even if it may potentially be a bit misguided. (I don't know, don't read your works, but everyone seems to like it.)

So yeah, that's all I want to say I think. This post is quite long. I need a headache. I mean, don't need a headache.

Whatever. XP


CrimsonTHRAK :

Thanks. It's a joy to hear. ^^

Sword legion: Keep in mind that this is really against the concept of god in general not the god referred to by the abrahamic religions specifically. While there are often underlying reasons for being born with birth defects, mental conditions etc. It is not always the case. When it comes to things like diet there are often times people who couldn't afford to eat healthy. It is in my humble opinion unjust to hold people accountable for something out of their control. As far as inbreeding goes, I'm not saying it is a healthy practice but short term inbreeding very rarely carries any consequences. Things like GMOs are in a lot of ways what allow us to survive. Without it we would not be able to exist in the same fashion we do now, and in the future as the population grows it may very well be the only way we'll be able to keep on existing.

And no I would definietly contest that disabilities typically mean you are succesful in life, Stephen Hawking is an example and there are others yes, but there are far more who have not accomplished anything in life, cannot because of the restrictions placed on them after birth, people who essentially are a liability on the state simply living their lives waiting to die, people who are incapable of rational thought. Some are succesful, but the chance of that happening is lower than someone who is born without any mental or physical disabilities.

I'd push you to prove that people aren't born homosexual because there is nothing really credible indicating otherwise. Assuming it is a mental condition. It is one that if you disregard the bible is not harmful though seeing as it does not stop you from being rational moral human being and it does not make sense that some would choose to be it while some detest it. As I understand it a lot of people argue homosexuality is a choice, a temptation you resist, in that case I pose the question why is it only some people ever feel tempted while others never do? I am straight, and I've never felt tempted to "turn gay".

If we didn't have the ability to sin yes we wouldn't really be the same, I don't see why that would matter. God has the power to do anything, he created us, which means he'd also have the power to make us eternally happy and sin free. The pursuit of happiness and enjoyment is the ultimate end goal we have, it is the reason we live, the things that make us happy sometime vary but it is something we all share. So why would things like free will or humanity matter if we were all happy, he's a being of unlimited power so surely he would have the power to do that. Free will is simply something we try to use to achieve happiness.

Here's a question I'd like to ask you: Why would god create us in the first place, what do you interpret the answer to that being?

Yes you could say that is one of my arguments though it is simplifying it. Disregarding predestination vs free will why would a god create us knowing some of us will sin and end up suffering for all eternity even if he does not know who? Most of us may have the ability to change our ways but I don't think the majority of people would ever want to inflict something like that on their worst enemy regardless of what they may have done. God by that depiction is sounding like a sadistic person with a superiority complex, who simply treats us as his toys, does whatever he wishes having a complete disregard for our well being. Imagine having a parent who decides to have a child then lets that child be tortured for all eternity just because he/she doesn't abide by his rules, I think nearly all of us would agree that the person should not be a parent and if anything should be locked up, but we don't apply that same standard to god assuming he exists because he is supposedly morally superior. Even if god made us have free will, shouldn't he as the greater being try to make those who question the bible understand in stead of letting them suffer?

And then it is wrong because things like doing evil onto others is often affected by factors out of our control, some are simply born that way, unable to change, sociopaths and psychopaths being an example. A lot are molded and impacted that way by their environment growing up. We are flawed beings, and if god exists he was the one who made us flawed. There are people who don't know of the existance of the bible because they were never taught about it, there are people who cannot understand the concept of god/religion because they don't have the mental capacity to, it is too complex for them.

None of us asked to be brought into the world we cannot choose if we are born, sure in life most of us wants to keep existing but that is because our brains are most of the time wired with the will to live again supposedly thanks to god but some don't even have that. So why should a god have the right to decide if we will end up being eternally happy or suffering?

Thus my conclusion, and my belief is. That there is no god there is more than one reason for why I think that, it being a manmade concept makes sense in a lot of ways because I don't feel it makes sense that I would even be possible for me to come to this conclusion if he wasn't, it makes sense to me that god should also use superior logic meaning there would be no room to question it. That is the way I view it. But disregarding that I don't think a being with a healthy set of morals would allow this. Sure how morality is perceived is subjective and it could be argued the moral standard presented in the bible is absolute. But if we judge by the actions of god then we're essentially punishing people for actions that we praise god for it is a double standard plain and simple. A flawed concept created by flawed beings. But that is just my take on it. As long as people are practicing their beliefs without forcing them on others, I'm fine with it.