I have total faith in God. In the beginning, there was nothing. Then the Lord said "let there be light!" And then there was light. You see, the reason that God created a world where logic rules is because if people knew that there were no boundaries to what they could do, they would think that they could become more powerful than He himself. Of course they would be wrong, but God probably just didn't want to have people try and be all mighty, that's all. In reality, we are ruled by logic, however God is not. He could very easily create something out of nothing, as He is all powerful. The Lord can do anything, from give life to take it. He is my rock, and I will believe in Him forever more. If He didn't exist, than miracles like the boy who was dead for 2 hours and suddenly came back to life would be lies, but they aren't. Only a being of infinite power would be able to do that, and that being is God. I have no physical evidence of his existence, other than my faith.

Prove he doesn't, its about having faith.  The next ? is what is faith.  When you sit in your pc do you check it each time to make sure it will hold you or do you just sit down.  Probably just sit down right.  You have (faith) that it will hold you.  We have to have faith in God's existence in a similar manner.

stevenkaus : The reason why this thread is titled "Prove God Exists" and isn't about proving that God doesn't exist is because you can't disprove something that doesn't exist , or in this case an idea of an invisible entity that can completely control the physical word yet can't manifest itself in the physical world. The most we are able to do, in my opinion, is to say that it is highly unlikely a God exists because there is no evidence that supports it (out side of a 3500 and 2000 year old sets of stories). Maybe you have more insight on this, how should one go about proving God doesn't exist?

With that said, I understand you will probably not be able to prove God's existence for two reasons. The first being that "God"  has been around for thousands of years and no one has proven his existence yet. The second reason is that you mentioned faith several times, and faith is simply a belief that has no solid evidence. Now this brings up an issue I had with your analogy of a chair requiring faith to sit in, which I believe is absurd.

I do not require faith in a chair holding me up because I know and understand basic physics. There are other factors as well... personal experience, the fact that the chair was designed or engineered. The fact that I can actually see the chair and what kind of condition it is in has an impact also. In my opinion it isn't faith as much as it is probability. There will always be a possibility, how ever slim, that a chair will break and it is just a risk you take by siting on it. The chance of it occuring is so slim that no one even thinks about it when they sit on a chair but there is always the chance. Maybe morbidly obese people need faith that a chair will hold them up, but I certainly don't.

Just to reiterate my main point, you can't prove something doesn't exist! Lack of evidence implies that something doesn't exist but it doesn't out right prove it. I hope you understand what I am trying to say, I have faith in you

Let's see if I can use apologetic without any formal classes lol.

smotpoker86 : God has manifested himself in hundreds of thousands of ways over the years in ways and situations that are more than you can count. I couldn't go into the specifics (it'd be too long and that's what this thread is for) but ask me something and I can do my best to answer it.

Faith is not the belief in something with no evidence. If that were the case, then we wouldn't be having this conversation today because no one would be around to believe it. I could say the same thing that you did for the chair as I can for God: I've had personal experiences with the Holy Spirit and I know that it's there. I've seen God work in many and miraculous ways. I don't completely understand how He works, but I know His nature through the Bible. The difference between God and the chair is that I know He will never forsake me, never break under the pressure. There's always the incredible slim chance that God doesn't exist, and I think about it sometimes, but I sit in the chair anyways because I have faith, I know, that He's there. Even if you think that the chair could possibly break, don't you sit in it anyways? Same with God.

Flibbith :
"God only exists through.... will 'exist'"
I heavily disagree with this statement. That's like saying I have faith in the president, so he exists more. Or I have faith that you are sitting on the other side of the computer, so you exist more. It doesn't work like that. He either exists or he doesn't.

"If you can prove... God a 'God'?"
Are you implying that God is not real even if He is real? Again, that's a load of contradictory statements. No where in the Bible does it say God is an imaginary idea (that would contradict with our faith).

"What is God?"
There are hundreds of verses in the Bible saying exactly "what" God is. God is the creator of everything, as it says in Genesis. God is the word and the word is God, as it says in John. He is everlasting, as it says in Isaiah. God is just and doesn't play favorites, as it says in Psalm 18. God is gracious, as it says in 1 Peter. God is so many things that it'd be hard to form different variants of Him.

Someone70 : Take a look at the definition of faith, particularly 2 a and b. They are for the most part interchangeable, as believing in something doesn't make it true or prove anything. 
1 
a): allegiance to duty or a person :loyalty
b)  (1):fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions

2
a) (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God/s (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b) (2) firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

I do not doubt that you have had personal experiences with God, or rather that you feel that you have had those experiences. There are countless examples of people making similar claims from almost every culture and religion. If your God exists because of this than so do all the others, and all of the God's can't exist. Now it would be wrong of me to completely write off your claims with out you properly describing them. So I ask you, could you please explain to me how your " personal experiences with the Holy Spirit" happened and affected you? 

smotpoker86 : Not answering for her, however, the Bible has a definition of faith:
Hebrews 11:1 - "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Romans 8:16, 24-25: "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...for we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance."

also a feeling of God is different than an experience. Anybody can "feel", that doesn't make it true...just a feeling.

tRIUNE :   I actually like and agree with those selections you chose from the bible. Hope and faith are greatly related, and by saying you have faith in God's existence you are basically saying you hope God exists.  The part I don't agree with is when it says "evidence of things not seen" , as that makes it not evident at all.

Yes you are right about feelings, just because they are felt doesn't mean they are true. A feeling of God however is an experience is it not? Maybe you could elaborate more on this difference, as I have neither felt or experience God.

You cant prove faith, faith is unproven, hence its a belief. there is nothing in the bible to prove it, if there was everyone would be christian.

thenumberone : I couldn't say it any better.

smotpoker86 : Well, the reason why it's hard to say specifically why my experiences are is because others will probably write them off as just an upwelling of emotion or something like that. I mean, it's hard to explain myself, but whether it's in worship or reading the Bible or just praying with friends, I can feel something overcome me. And I'll either start crying, or just reaching out to God with my hands or just start shouting praise.

But I do believe that there's some invisible force out there that we can't see, which is some plenty evidence enough for God, at least for me. I've seen miracles happen before my very eyes because of His spirit working here. In church, my pastor asked if anyone wanted prayer, and this one women stood up. She had problems with her back and knees, which made it so she could hardly walk, let alone do other physical activities. So the whole congregation, we just prayed for her and the next instant, she felt her knees and they didn't hurt at all. She actually jumped right off the stage and started running around like a little girl! It was really neat.

Another miracle that happened recently is that a friend of mine had some sort of rupture in his brain. I forget the actual details, but the doctors said he had about a 25% chance of making it to the hospital alive, and a significantly smaller chance of surviving the following surgery. And even if he were to survive that, he would be in an extremely fragile condition for the next few hours. But even against all odds, he's still alive and well today. The doctor called it a miracle himself, since he said it was one in a million odds that that should happen.

So ultimately, my faith lies in the works that God has performed on this Earth in this day and age. He hasn't shown himself directly in person (for the Bible says He couldn't or that anyone that saw his face would instantly be killed) but He has proven his presence to me through the works that have been done in his name.

Someone70 : that 1st one sounds staged to me, and the 2nd one i think the doctors deserve a lot of credit.
i just find it strange that this dosent happen in africa, they pray just the same.

Sigh, I believe everything Someone70 said after reading all of it...and, I sigh because truth is stranger than fiction, so thus people write it off...

thenumberone : You don't hear about miracles like this everyday in Africa, no, but what you do see is people providing care for these people. If you think about the hundreds of people that die from hunger, then it's nothing short of a miracle to them when organizations like World Vision come and provide them with food and wells for water. And like you said, they pray about it, we pray about it, and God grants them their needs.

Now, you're probably thinking "If God exists, why doesn't he just save everyone?" Or "Who does God choose to be touched by these 'miracles'?" For the first question, just look at this story from the beginning of John 9. In the passage, Jesus and his disciples see a blind man and one of his disciples asks why he's blind. They ask if he sinned or his parents sinned and God hates him or something like that. But Jesus replies, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."

What he means is, God doesn't save everyone who doesn't sin a lot or condemn those who do. He puts people into this situation so that we who are more fortunate may show them, and through them, the world, the glory of God. The reason why people are poor or impoverished doesn't mean that God hates them or He isn't looking out for them, but so that we can do something about it and spread God's word in that respect.

I think the same reasoning could apply to those miracles I named earlier. They didn't suffer because God was cursing them. But so that He could show his power and reveal that to the congregation and whoever spreads that story.

And the first miracle couldn't be staged. I knew her personally and I knew how she had this terrible pain in her legs. Running around the church was the last thing I expected her to do.

Someone70 : so if you all pray for someone dying or crippled they will be saved, because they are like that so they can recieve gods blessing?that dosent sound like evidence, else why have hospitals.
you dont know she had that problem, not hard to fake it.
People chose to help africans, and plenty that chose to dont believe in christ, and many places get nothing, not much of a miracle...

Someone70 :   thenumberone mentioned that this 'act of God' sounds staged, which was my initial reaction as well. This wouldn't be the first time one of these spiritual healings have been shown to be a fraud or scam. You replied by saying it wasn't staged so I will take your word on it.  I will , however, give an explanation that I see being more plausible.

First of all, is the woman healed or not? Was it just a momentary running around in the church that reverted back to her still  not being able to walk without pain? This in my opinion is critical to the analysis of such an event. If she isn't fully cured then it is likely that it was adrenaline and emotion that took over and countered the pain. After all she was still able to walk, her joints and muscles still functioned, it is not like she was paralyzed. This might be a better way to show what I mean. Lets say your hip hurts and affects how you walk because you avoid the pain as much as possible. Now a man comes up to you with a gun and tries to mug you or harm you, so what do you do? You start running! Just because it hurts to walk doesn't mean it isn't possible to run, and while that adrenaline is surging through your body it counter acts the pain.


The second miraculous event, similar to what thenumberone said, should be giving more credit to both the doctors and luck (although I still think he is more unlucky than lucky, but thats another topic). Yes there were slim chances of him making it out alive, but to say that it happened because of God's intervention is like saying it's God's actions that lets people win the lottery.


"The reason why people are poor or impoverished doesn't mean that God hates them or He isn't looking out for them, but so that we can do something about it and spread God's word in that respect. " I am not trying to be overly rude but that is pure BS. God allows suffering so that the Christian religion can spread? That seems very cruel to me.

You mentioned foreign aid helping people, and this is one of the most beneficial aspects of religion in my opinion. However there can also be negative side effects of religious aids. Let me give you an example. One of the major areas that catholic missionaries / aid is located is in Africa. They spend probably hundreds of millions of dollars each year treating AIDs  among other things. One of these "other things" they spend money on is spreading their particular religion and dogma. Now this causes them to teach the African people that using contraceptive devices is a sin, and as a result even more people have unprotected sex spreading the very disease they focus on treating. Another negative effect of religious foreign aid is that it divides the people. Take Rawanda as an example, the spread of Christianity helped lead it into a civil war, which consequently took the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

I 100% agree with helping people that need help but I think it works out best when they leave their bibles at home and don't preach their own morals and dogma. This is why I would much rather support a secular aid group like UNICEF rather than any religiously affiliated organization. I would know that the majority of the money is used to help the people and not to pay for building churches and converting people. Since I am not overly familiar with them I am unsure if the example you gave of World Vision actively promotes Christianity or not, but seeing that they are a Christian group I am fairly confident they do it in some way or another.

I am setting up two assumptions here:
1. "God" is a human concept/idea.
2. This idea is in reference to the oneness of all things and a sacredness that permeates all existence.

God is love. Love is real. So in a lot of ways, I think God is a concept with meaningful weight behind it.
I think that to deny that we are spiritual beings is to deny human nature. We seek a sense of connectedness with the rest of the universe and want (sometimes desperately) our lives to feel meaningful. In that sense, god is very real and this will be obvious to anyone who bothers to look inside themselves for this answer, no matter what form it may take in your mind.

Annette : Finally a post about God I can agree with lol.

Like you said we are spiritual by nature ,  seeing as even the most primitive cultures and civilizations all had spiritual aspects about them. This possibly is a result of our level of consciousness and our ability/desire to seek, discover, and learn knowledge and truths. If being spiritual means god exists than yes god exists ... just not to the superficial extent that religions claim.

smotpoker86 : In so many ways I am torn about religion because I understand the spiritual aspect of it, but I find the superstition and dogma often incredibly irrational and silly. I do not believe in God being some supernatural "man" or "person" who is able to telepathically communicate with every human on earth and bend the laws of physics at his will... In all of the endless expanse of the universe, he apparently cares about what books you have a comprehension of, what blends of fabric you drape on your body, the length of skirts in a certain type of building, bothers to alter football scores, and answers prayers about math homework... I can't prove something like that exists, and I honestly doubt that anyone else can.

It's not necessarily a meaning of proof. The way I kind of see it is a "The way it is" situation. If he wants to come out and show himself then he will, otherwise, what are you going to do about  it?