geeogree : Oh I understand, I'm just wondering why you didn't exactly take my words, I said that people could obey God and trust in Him before Jesus had came to earth. I understand that you don't want to think that Eternal Damnation is what happens, but if it is true then we have to save as many people as we can.
If I was right, many people would be going to hell right now because they don't know Jesus. Are you saying we should just teach good morals and not share the gospel? Are all those people who share the gospel... are they wasting their time out there? Are missionaries risking their lives for something that's in vain? Tell me the answer to that! I feel like you don't think missionaries or evangelism is needed if you say that you only need good works to go to heaven.
And your whole theoretical "Oh, what if a person has done no wrong or he's selfless doesn't know God?" thing... There really isn't a true "selfless" or "person who has done no wrong". That person just doesn't exist. Only Jesus was that person. But He sacrificed His life for our sins... sins that we have all been guilty of.
If you're blaming God, and if it's true that people can't be saved by good works, then would you turn away from Christianity?
And you also never answered my question about a Christian that still does wrong.
JigSaw : First of all, the thing about the 99 virgins is Islam. Get your facts straight before you post something like that
Second, Where do you get these ideas about being unable to think in heaven? That's like completely made up.
I wasn't brainwashed to Christianity. Every true Christian is a Christian by their own free will.
I never really did understand your logic

JigSaw : I don't want to judge other people (maybe I should of re-thought that before making this thread). I don't want to judge people at all (it's not my job, it's Gods) If you think I'm judging people, I'm sorry.

play4fun : No I was not describing myself. It was an example. I don't see how there can be one truth if god is infinite omni being. This means that he would be everything (which means everyone is god and if we were not that means god is not real, at least according to the bible, for putting boundaries on an infinite being makes the being not infinite) and there would be no one truth many truths.

Zamiel : Read my recent post, is there someone else that you can describe that?

God is infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient...but God is not an Omni being. That is pantheism, the idea that God is everything and everything is God. That does not even make sense...because everything has a beginning, and if God is everything, that means God has a beginning, but that would conflict with the description of "infinite" for infinity has no beginning. We are most definitely not God. The Bible does not put boundaries on God...in fact it tells us about God's attributes.

play4fun : There are plenty of selfless people in the world. Just because they're selfless doesn't mean they're perfect.

I meant that god is us not that we are god. I never said the bible puts boundaries on god. How can he not be an Omni being if he is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Sounds like an omni being to me.

Zamiel : "There are plenty of selfless people in the world. Just because they're selfless doesn't mean they're perfect." That is why from the previous post, I talked about the reason that people go to hell and the only solution for it.

"I meant that god is us not that we are god. I never said the bible puts boundaries on god." Yeah, I had a hard time understanding the part from your previous post in the parenthesis. Please clarify.

"How can he not be an Omni being if he is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Sounds like an omni being to me."

Well, if you describe an omni being as "god is us," that makes less sense. Omnipotence means one being having unlimited power. Omniscience means one being having the capability of knowing everything. Omnipresent means one being being present everywhere. If an omni being is described as "god is us," it would not fit any of it, because it is describing one being. That is why it is still Pantheism. And again with the line of logic that I talked about from the previous post, an "omni being" cannot be infinite.

Why are you guys defending this so strongly? Why not just accept that we have our own opinions and deal with it? People aren't gonna "follow your way" or whatever just cuz you try to threaten us with hell...

play4fun : As to you saying one day I'll "open my eyes" ? My eyes -are- open, that's why I was finally able to add up the numbers and admit that religion doesn't make enough sense to be true. I made a choice, and I'm the kind of person that sticks with my choice, no matter what happens. I made my choice for a reason, and I'm not changing my mind. I only believe what makes SENSE, and religion has way too many plot-holes, and I mean MANY plot-holes...

Basically, let's put out this hypothetical scenario:

Let's say this god dude is real (purposely saying "this god dude" to prove my thoughts). So then as JigSaw pointed out, if the only way to get to heaven is by following blindly every word that the bible says (just a typical book written by a typical guy though, nothing special), then I'd rather break off from the crowd and defend my individuality.

If that sends me to hell (if it exists: no heaven, no hell) then bring it on! I'll accept my fate, cuz why not face it instead of being afraid of it?

Geeogree, the maker of this thread is not wrong. He has taken everything from scripture. It is very clear in ephesians 2:8-10 that faith and repentance is what saves us, and it is by NOTHING we did, or could do. It is also clear in Epesians that we fall short of the glory of God. If we could get to heaven through works than Jesus would not have had to of come.

If that's how Christianity is( such a brainwasher religion ), I'd rather believe in Scientology then. It suits my beliefs better.

And a God who forces everyone to believe him ( I'll go to hell if I don't believe him? )isn't the God I know and worship.

( Just a random off-topic thing) I don't believe in Jesus. Even though my religion says that I SHOULD.

Zeldisaster : Hell is not used as a threat. It's what it is. This is not an opinion thing, it is the truth. It's not a matter of whether you believe in something as hard as you want, but whether what you believe is true.

And if I know that this is true, then we would want to tell people about it, because we don't want you to go to hell, and that we know how you can get right with God. If we care about you, we would want to talk to you about it. I can't force you, but at least I try to clear the air of any confusion and let you decide on your own.

One of the reasons that people think that this does not make sense is because their own concept of Christianity is misguided...and from the hypothetical scenario, you clearly do not understand it, it's not even close.

Why don't we take a look at those plot holes? Like what Martin Luther said when he faced against the Diet of Worms concerning the corruption of the pope and the catholic church. "
Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the scriptures or by clear reason
, I am bound by the scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen."

Juliet : People who are forced into Christianity are not Christians anyways. Christians are not even suppose to force others into Christianity, like putting a gun to someone's face, or torture to change. If you hear how you wrote your post, the emphasis is on "I," instead of trying to find what is true, you would want to believe in something that "suits your beliefs better."

And here is the claim that Jesus said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

Now, by the words of C.S. Lewis: "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God." --Mere Christianity

So you look at the claims and see for yourself. Ask the questions: Is He a liar, a lunatic, or is He God?

Except that you're assuming that your theory is entirely 100% correct, with no exceptions or negotiations...

What if the entire belief system you've been attempting to impose on us is wrong? Just imagine that, and do me that favor.

On a side note, are you honestly attempting to be Vizzed's Jehovah's Witness? Cuz it sure seems like it...

Zeldisaster : We're not Jehovah's Witnesses. That's totally different. Do you know the difference?
And, I'm gonna say that you're assuming that our "theory" is 100% wrong.
If ours is wrong, I don't think it really affects me in terms of like... my well being.
If hell doesn't exist, then I wouldn't have to worry about it. But if it does, then if I just take that for granted, I'd end up there.
I hate how everyone thinks that God is "forcing people to believe in Him". I think that's just plain ridiculous. God gives everyone a choice. As sinners, we all deserve hell, but He provided a way to heaven by dying for our sins as Jesus and granting us salvation. We only need to accept Him and trust in Him.
Am I shoving a gun to your face and asking you to convert or you'll die or something? No. I'm just telling you about it. That's what the maker of this thread was trying to do. He was informing people about what he thinks, and we're doing the same thing. I'm not forcing you to convert to Christianity. I'm only telling you what I think is true and hope that you will understand. If anyone's being condemned, it's me, Clayton 2, and play4fun and anyone who believes what I believe, because you're the one making the attacks. We're only defending our beliefs. We're not making you believe in it.
No hard feelings, OK? ^^;

Zeldisaster : Of course I thought about that. You don't want someone to blindly have faith in something like this. It's usually harder to grow living in a Christian family, because it is easier for them to doubt, compare to those who don't have a Christian background but was converted to Christianity. But as I grow older, with my studies, both in scripture, knowledge, reason, and throughout life, I'm more and more convinced that this is true.

Again, you are the one who mentioned the plot-holes. Let me know what they are and let's examine them. Don't worry. I'm not afraid to say I don't know if I don't know and I'll be more than willing to look into something that get me confused about my beliefs, but you need to provide it. This is truth and reality that we are dealing with; too important to just shrug off. You made a claim, you need to back it up with your evidence, doubts, and reason.

I would more want to consider myself as a Christian on Vizzed. You don't want to associate me with a cult. Because I care so much about you and truth, I would be willing to spend some time talking about it. I also don't want any misconceptions about Christianity.

Besides, aren't we in the "Christian Conservative" Forum? You gotta expect people who love talk about about Christianity, theology, etc, here.

Once I die I'll be sure to tell you how to go to heaven, or maybe if heaven is true.

play4fun : I'd rather stick with my beliefs rather than look "blindly" for the truth. Let's face it. No one knows what will happen after we die before it happens. And it's impossible for us to completely know something human eyes cannot see. We don't even know if ghosts are 100% true.

The only thing that I'm pretty sure is, we're here today to live our lives to the fullest. And one day, a superior being will take our lives away. I won't call him God because we're not certain if that's His name.

play4fun : Where to begin with this...

The God is us but we are not God comment. Think of it this way, an arm is not a human but a human is that arm since the arm makes up the human. I need to stop posting in this forum when I'm half asleep and hyped up on caffeine lol.

As for your solution, I still don't think it's right. If God created everything then that means he created sin. If he (I call God he out of habit, should probably be more of an it) is omnipotent then that means he knew that we would sin. This is like giving a small child a stick that is on fire, which never goes out, knowing full well that the child could burn itself or others with it. Then when they do end up hurting themselves or others you punish them, even if they learn from the mistake and apologize to the other person. Doesn't seem right to me.

mdynaty926: Zeld wasn't saying that you or anyone else is literally a Jehovah's Witness. He was making an analogy.

Juliet : Here is where the claim then, that Christians know where a person will go when they die. Now you will have to look the claims and see if these claims are true. This is how you won't be "blindly" believing.

Zamiel : "The God is us but we are not God comment. Think of it this way, an arm is not a human but a human is that arm since the arm makes up the human." Now it sounds more like Panentheism, but again, this goes against the idea of infinite, omnipresence from what I said before. Furthermore, that would not be omniscient because this is implying that God is gaining knowledge, and not knowing all.

"If God created everything then that means he created sin. If he (I call God he out of habit, should probably be more of an it) is omnipotent then that means he knew that we would sin." First of all, that is omniscience, which is all knowing, not omnipotent. Second, God did not create evil. Third, because God love people, he does not want to force people into following Him, that is why He gives people that free choice to choose to follow Him or against Him. And those who choose to go against God, because God is good and just, then He would have to pass the sentence of those who are unjust. That is why Christianity is not "brainwash." Finally, the fact that He knows that we would sin makes it even more amazing that God already has it planned out about Jesus. When Satan persuaded Adam and Eve to sin, Satan thinks that he ruined God's plan and that he is victorious. However, God foresaw this, and it did not ruin His plan, and the fact that the Jesus is already planned out and that demonstration makes God all the more to be glorified.

play4fun : Omniscience is what I meant lol.

"God did not create evil."
Okay, then where did evil come from?

"He gives people that free choice to choose to follow Him or against Him. And those who choose to go against God, because God is good and just, then He would have to pass the sentence of those who are unjust"
Yes but not believing in God is not the same as going against God. I could understand someone not getting into heaven because they know full well that God is real and decide to rebel against him but not letting people in just because they didn't think that God existed, that just seems more of a human idea than rather than something decided by a god.

"When Satan persuaded Adam and Eve to sin, Satan thinks that he ruined God's plan and that he is victorious. However, God foresaw this, and it did not ruin His plan, and the fact that the Jesus is already planned out and that demonstration makes God all the more to be glorified."
Does this not mean that God created sin by creating Lucifer, knowing full well what Lucifer was going to do?

If God designed us then he designed all sin like Zamiel stated. If he was able to foresee sins then surely he could have stopped the devil before it was too late. This proves that god himself can make mistakes. What mistake did god make? He gave one of his own creations the power rebel against him.

Not only does this make god look weaker it also makes repenting worthless knowing full well you can be judged before being born since you are designed by him. Now because of this huge mistake god made religion sparked and the only way to get back in gods hands is by your own free will. You have to admit though, god isn't so perfect after all. He made a major mistake of giving people free will and that in return made him tons of enemies. Sure he could have done this on purpose, but there is no point other then it was a mistake.

If god was indeed perfect I am sure there would be no such thing as sin. If he is able to foresee sins, then he created it knowing full well of what would happen which in result means he established sin cause he gave free will to his creations.

If god was perfect there would be no religion or no debate, because of one mistake god made the people all will suffer through it. You go to hell without religion right? Definitely sounds like a pure guilt trip right there. Religion is the cloth covering the mistake god made by giving people free will.

Zamiel : "Okay, then where did evil come from?"

"Does this not mean that God created sin by creating Lucifer, knowing full well what Lucifer was going to do?"

You can't create evil. Evil is not a substance. It was given to us the choice to either follow God or follow our own pride. That goes the same way with Lucifer. God does not control or brainwash His angels to follow Him. It was Lucifer's decision and his own pride of wanting to be like God that makes him want to go against Him.

"Yes but not believing in God is not the same as going against God. I could understand someone not getting into heaven because they know full well that God is real and decide to rebel against him but not letting people in just because they didn't think that God existed, that just seems more of a human idea than rather than something decided by a god."

When we sin against God, we are made enemies against him. Our actions are an act of rebellion. Believing that God exists does not make right with God. "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!" (James 2:19) Demons believed in the existence of God, but they are enemies of God. Why? Because their actions and their thoughts are of rebellion against Him. Because God is good, our sins and wicked thoughts are actions of rebellion.

JigSaw : Religion is man's way of finding God. Religion is man's problem, not God. That is why there are so many wrong religions. Christianity is more than a religion, it's a relationship between the true God and Man.

Giving free will is not a mistake. If you have a child, will you tell force your child to do everything that you want the child to do from young to old? Of course not. You can only teach him and lead him in the right direction till when he is old enough to make his own decisions.

I still agree with that clayton guy. Faith in Christ Jesus is the only way to heaven. Works don't get you saved. Good works come from being saved and having faith.