This is an older thread, or it's been merged. My comments were from awhile ago.


However, regarding your comment on there being no contradictions:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

The thing is, I don't care if Christians don't like tattoos or not. That was my main insight. Now, if Christians start going around trying to shut down tattoo parlors because the bible doesn't approve, that's a very different story. However, I'm not a Christian, so I don't care if you get tattoos or don't get them. Thus, I'm not really sure where else to go with this talk.

As I see it, you have two stances:

1) The Bible (which, no offense, I don't value) says not to get them.
2) Tattoo ink is toxic.

The first point rests on whether or not you care about the Bible. If you do, and you follow it, then tattoos are a sin -- though, again, Leviticus says shaving is a sin... so how do you draw the line?

The second point is medical, not religious. I've read some posts where it's shown that the ink is, in fact, toxic -- IF toxic ink is used. I'll try to locate and post the links that talk about mainstream American (I don't know where you live) parlors using newer, non-toxic inks.
*Edit: http://www.livestrong.com/article/180816-non-toxic-tattoo-ink-ingredients/

I know that the word "Rabbi" means teacher... but it's also a title used for a Jewish religious leader.

Whether it's in the bible or not doesn't mean it wasn't written. How is re-reading the bible going to give you information about a topic not mentioned in the bible? The article says it was an ancient Coptic text. Please click the link for details on where it was found.

I'm not an expert on the Coptics. I know it's a non-conventional branch of Christianity found mostly in Egypt, but that's it.

Mr. Keys, why do you believe that Jesus couldn't fall in love?

I tend to think that Jesus was real, but that much of what has been attributed to him is inaccurate or exaggerated. I'm not really bothered by this. As a martial artist, I've seen how "revering the master" can lead to similar effects. The person becomes a symbol and the symbol overtakes the person. I will say of Jesus what I say of any claim: the burden of proof lies with those who make the claim, not with those who challenge it.

If I said that hobbits were real (not being rude -- this time -- choosing a fictional character on purpose) the burden of proof would lie with me. I would have to support my claim. If you said that they weren't real, YOU would not have to prove it. YOU would be in the right to demand that I prove it. So, if Jesus is real, just find other documents of a non-religious (i.e. not the Bible) nature to cite as proof. Link them as evidence to support your claim. End of issue.

On to the second part of my question: what about nuns and priests? No one has addressed that.

You know, you're right. I was more snippy than needed. Sorry.

Thanks for provided sources, I'll read it later.

It occurs to me, as a non-Christian, that I have no need to care about Christian views on tattoos. Doesn't affect me. I don't like it when the religious try to correct me, so I'm withdrawing my comments -- accept for our point of agreement about maturity. Of course, if Christians start telling non-Christians that THEY (non-Christians) shouldn't get tattoos... that's a different story... but that's not happening here.

That having been said, I will say this: It would be WONDERFUL if Christians would make up their minds OFFICIALLY about the Old Testament.

Keep it and believe it, or toss it out. The cherry-picking makes it impossible for me to have a decent conversation about belief with people.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/18/living/fragment-suggests-jesus-was-married/index.html?iref=allsearch

Sorry, I should have posted at least one article when I asked.

  "Graffiti", Mr. Pace, is nothing more than a reflection of bias on your part.

IF your body is a temple, why not adorn it with murals? No one says that tattoos have to be distasteful. Comparing it to drug use is nothing more than faulty reasoning.

"I don't care what tattoo artists say"... well, clearly you're an expert, to know more than the people who actually do the job. Why don't you show evidence to support your claim, instead of simply denying the claims of others?

The main rule against tattoos is from Leviticus, which is arguably one of the worst books in the bible. The vast majority of this book is disregarded (except when it's time to hate gays, then it's hailed). Historical evidence shows that part of the rule against tattoos stems from a desire for early religion to push tribal practices (involving tattoos) out -- so that religious views and practices could dominate without interference from tribal traditions.

If Tattoos are a sin, then so is cutting your hair -- since both are forbidden by the same book.

My advice, if you're young: wait. Wait until you're at least 25 to make the decision. If you're old enough, go to a clean place, and choose a design you'll be happy with when you're 50.

Recent articles on new websites like CNN and Der Spiegel have commented on newly discovered (or translated, I forget which) ancient documents in which Jesus refers to his wife.

I'm not a Christian, so I don't really care either way, but I'm curious: do you (Christians) care if he was married?

Do you think that priests should be allowed to get married? Nuns? Ministers typically can. Rabbis can (I know, Judaism, but the point is there).

Very Helpful!!!

Thanks to both of you!

Hi,

I'm thinking about buying the Nexus 7. Does anyone have one? I can't find one in stores, so I haven't been able to try them out. Salespeople at stores seem to range from helpful (but uninformed) to the moron I met at Best buy who tried to tell me that Samsung Galaxy and Nexus 7 were the same -- because they were both tablets...

Anyway...

Does the Nexus 7 have a true personal assistant program, or does it just have voice-run searching for simple web-searches?

Does the Nexus 7 have the option for an SD card, or is it true that there's absolutely no way to increase memory?

Does the touch screen have issues (won't unlock, uneven sensitivity)?

Does the Nexus 7 have Jellybean? Or is it still using Ice Cream Sandwich (seriously, wtf is up with these names?).

Lastly, did you buy the 8GB or 16GB option? Why?

thenumberone : Just a really quick note:

God told Abraham (the main Patriarch of the Judeo-Christian religions) to kill his son, Isaac. This was a test of Abraham's faith. Abraham didn't actually do it because, according to scripture, as he was about to do it God (I believe sent angels) stopped him.

One would question why an all-knowing being would need to test faith in the first place. If he's truly all-knowing, he should KNOW what Abraham will do.

That's all I have time for right now.

Bombchu: Have I ever told a lie and how many? Seriously? You're nitpicking.  Nitpicking is a game of gotcha, not a matter of ethical discussion.

If you want to discuss the nature of lying, or the ethical implications of lying, then I'm all for it.

But "how many lies" isn't a conversation worth having, sorry.

Lastly, did you watch the link I shared, or not? You made the statement that god hates to kill. I'd rather not change the subject.

Ralph:

You seem to be confused. There's actually a difference between violating harassment rules in which people are directly and unfairly insulted and where say... ridiculous and illogical arguments are refuted by using the same fallacy-laden proof against said ARGUMENT.

Report and ignore all you want. It changes nothing about my argument or the legitimacy of my stance. 

However, please look up the definition of "abuse". I'll give you a hint, the definition isn't, "What ever I don't like or find annoying."

Regarding Fallacy in religious arguments, refer to the following list:

#1. Argumentum ad ignorantium - Fallacy that something must be true because it has not been, Or can't be, proven false.
If you can't prove that god doesn't exist, That means he must exist.

#2. Argumentum ad misericordia - Appealing to pity.
Why are you so intent on destroying something that makes so many sick children happy!

#3. Argumentum ad nauseum - Fallacy that something is likely to be true the more often it is said.
God exists, How many times do i have to tell you?

#4. Argumentum ad novitatem - Fallacy that something is right because it's new.
Of course Islam is the true religion, Mohammad is the most recent prophet.

#5. Argumentum ad populum - Fallacy that something is correct based on the amount of people who believe it.
Look how many people believe in Jesus, They can't all be wrong.

#6. Bifurcation - Fallacy of presenting a situation as having only two answers.
Evolution is wrong, So that means creationism is right.

#7. Circular Logic - The premise that what you are trying to prove is evidence of it's self.
The bible is the word of god because it says it is, And it can't be wrong, because after all, It is the word of god.

#8. Cum hoc ergo propter hoc - Fallacy of asserting that events occurring simultaneously must be causally related.
With all these natural disasters happening how can you deny that god isn't punishing us?

#9. Plurium interrogationum - Fallacy of demanding a simplistic answer to a complex question.
If god didn't create the universe then explain what did.

#10. Slippery slope fallacy - Fallacy that one event will inevitably lead to harmful consequences.
If we let gays get married it will be the end of family values.

# 11 - Tu Quoque.   The fallacy that flaws in one religion can be justified by pointing to flaws in another.

#12 - Argumentum ad hominem.  The fallacy that insulting your opponent is a substitute for refuting their ideas, eg, you are mad/possessed by Shaitan/too stupid to understand Islam, etc.


I find it Ironic that you should accuse me of #12 (when I clearly pointed out the futility of the argument) only to then target "people like me as being the reason atheists are hated" rather than addressing the actual argument I put forth.

Hoochman : There is no such thing as belief in a negative in the sense you're suggesting. Atheists have heard the claim of theists that there is a god, and have asked for definitive proof. No such proof has ever been presented. Atheists have refused to simply "take the word of theists" until such proof occurs.

Where there is actual evidence, there is no need for faith.

Atheists don't have faith. We have evidence, skepticism, and logic.

When I say, "I don't believe that God exists" what I mean is: there is no evidence suggesting such a being, but since disproving a negative is impossible, my best assertion is that god does not exist.

Please don't be mislead by the use of the word "believe". If you were at my house and I offered you dessert and said, we have cake... but I don't believe we still have ice cream -- this would not imply a matter of faith regarding a lack of ice cream.

Lastly, PLEASE STOP ADDING to the definition of Atheism. Atheism means one thing and one thing only: "does not believe in god or gods." Any other similarities among atheists are coincidental and/or culturally influenced. So much confusion about Atheism being a belief system comes from adding things to the above-written definition.

bombchu link :

Okay, lets look at the most basic aspects of (since you mentioned the Torah) the Judeo-Christian God.

God is omniscient, he knows what we'll do before we do it. He created people, then didn't like how things were going, and flooded the whole Earth (according to scripture). That's one example of wide-spread genocide.  That probably didn't happen, however... but that depends on how much people actually believe.

Moses. One of the major characters. Led the Jews out of Egypt, wandered the desert for forty years (nevermind, for now, that there is NO archeological evidence for this). Killed THOUSANDS of people because God told him to:

"When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations--the Hittites, Girgas***es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you" Deuteronomy 7:1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xwZt8ypufE -- watch this. The whole movie is great, but watch this part.

What is right and wrong, is a matter of context, and I believe what the world needs more than strong laws are wise judges. Yes, I believe I am a good person.

RalphTheWonderLlama :

That this argument made it to four pages, is ridiculous.

This forum has post after post of the same question about an unprovable deity and, for all that believers may voice their opinions and set forth claims -- without evidence, the conversation is moot.

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be rejected out of hand.

I'm surprised that fairy tales weren't mentioned sooner as well, as that's all religion is.

"Of course there is a god" hahahaha. That's hilarious, Mr. Pace

"Of course Santa is real" he's the fat man who eat's the cookies at Christmas.
"Of course there's a Tooth Fairy" she's the fairy who takes my teeth when I put them under my pillow.
"Of course there are unicorns" they're the horses with horns who can only be seen by virgins.
"Of course my beliefs are real" I can tell you what they are.

CLEARLY, if something can be believed in, it's real.

The fact is simple. This post is called, "Is there a God?"

If you make a claim, and provide NO evidence, NOBODY should believe you. Those of you who say God is real, provide no evidence. Ignorance of science, does not make your religious views "evidence".

bombchu link :

God is a far more evil dictator than any ruler who has ever lived. If you actually bothered to look at the holy texts, you would see that he is responsible for more murder and suffering than all of the world's dictators combined.

Your assertion, and it can barely be called that, that atheists are immoral because they lack a God to tell them right from wrong does nothing but show that you lack common sense. One does not need religion to know that killing, theft, rape, bigotry and oppression are wrong; however, one need only study religion to get approval for such things.

Lastly, if you bothered to READ my post, you would know that the definition of an Atheist is "one who does not believe in god or gods". You adding scientific theory to Atheism proves that you have not bothered to think. That having been said, if you actually understood science, you would know that there is an OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF PROOF. That you think the only means of proof is to see something first hand is funny, as no religious person ever can honestly claim to have seen God.

xDarkSniper1300x

Your sentence was a little hard to follow, but I think I know what you mean.

1st) Atheist means, "Doesn't believe in God" NOT "Doesn't believe in religion". Everyone believes in religion, because religion is a thing that exists -- whether we believe it's true or not, is a different story.

2nd) I don't know that "non-believer" would be better than "atheist", as I consider the terms to be generally synonymous. As for the term "atheist" being looked down upon, that's a whole different issue; an issue, perpetuated by people like former president H.W. Bush, who said that Atheists shouldn't be allowed to be citizens.

3rd) The main point of my post was against the idea of calling atheism a religion (or even a belief system of ANY kind). Atheism simply means "does not believe in a god (or gods)". Secular Humanism may include a variety of values and perspectives, but I don't believe that Atheism should be defined as, "whatever a particular Atheist's opinion happens to be." Nor do I believe that it's acceptable for religious people to group all Atheists BEYOND the above stated definition.

It IS okay to lump people of the same religion, however. That's not hypocrisy, because religion is based on very specific laws, rules, views, and beliefs -- outlined in holy texts. For a person to claim to be Catholic (for example) they are claiming to support and believe in the specifics outlined by the Catholic (in this example) doctrine. The degree to which they adhere to the doctrine is the degree to which they are good, truly devout, honest practitioners. The world is FULL of people who claim to be members of a religion and then act and speak in ways that directly contradict the beliefs to which they claim to adhere. This is actually one of my major problems with religion -- if the religious actually practiced the religion as it is, without exception, their views might change (or they may insist on strong revisions to reflect the modern world). So long as the buffet style, cherry-picking religious continue to group themselves under general terms, no changes will be insisted upon. 

Hi,

I'm playing Legend of Zelda, The Minish Cap.

When I'm in the town, and become a mini-Link, there's a point in the Minish "cafe" where the game will freeze for no reason and the Flash Player will crash. It's right past the candle, approaching the guy behind the desk.

Thanks!