oO Wow, those are some strong responses... lol But no, no one's getting burnt up or anything like that over this thread, don't worry. ^^ I did say all opinions are welcome. It wasn't my intention to start any fights, so I hope no one gets upset over this thread. *Hugs everyone*

LunarDarkness2 : Yeah, it's sad when things happen *cough Nintendo cough* and Davideo7 ends up changing his plans/has to put off implementing some of the changes that everyone was looking forward to. I'm sure he's still working on everything even as we speak though (he did make a list and prioritized the Chat Room). (Cuz he's totally awesome like that, no deb8. =P )

geeogree : First off, congratulations on winning the TDV and creating so many new records!!! XD That's always quite an achievement, regardless of the time of year! It was really an honor to have been able to compete by your side senpai noticed me! XD and I hope to see you again in the next TDV, even if it's just for a little while. lol Also, thank you so much for clarifying everything. I already figured that other TDV would stay controversial for quite a long time because the Green Jersey as it is right now still can't satisfy everyone yet (I kind of hope it will at some point though lol ). Since I also didn't talk much after that TDV, it's totally understandable that people don't know much about it either, so it actually doesn't bother me all that much if they want to think what they will. lol I really appreciate that you stepped in to help though.

18mlivingston : I guess people tend to forget that there are always new people trying to join the TDV, and it's as you say, if it's their first time trying out the TDV, many of them will probably take the TDV quite seriously, which is kind of nice in my book. lol After all, we now have plenty of Vizzed members that earned recognition through competing in the TDV and then went on to become outstanding Vizzed citizens. And don't worry, I did say I was curious about what everyone thought, so I'm glad that you stated your point of view. It doesn't seem rude to me, it just makes me wonder if perhaps some of our TDV requirements right now are really a little too lofty for the average user to achieve (and thus they feel they have to ask people to let them win).

Galacta : I'm sorry, but someone else is going to have to answer that. D= On Vizzed, I was only born... about 500 or so days ago. ^^0
#RespectTheVets

Barathemos : You were still Site Staff like me when you saw that TDV, and now you're a Local, congratulations. I'm sure there's plenty of stuff you can see now that I can't, so please feel free to think as you wish about that TDV. ^^ Until something can be done about the Green Jersey, I understand that these kinds of feelings will continue to surround anyone that wins the Green, and since that's something that's out of my control, I'm not going to worry about it. About my screenshots though, I think EX Palen addressed that in another thread. I did end up talking to Vanelan and that's how I learned they wanted me to refrain from taking screenshots of visual novels and certain menus during the TDVs. I rarely take screenshots of credit pages anyways, so that wasn't a problem for me. As for whether or not you think I should be wearing the Green, you're entitled to your opinion so that's fine with me. lol To my understanding, the Staff has actually been really lenient/kind to just about everyone that's been competing in the Green (what do you think Screenshot Adders like us get to see? ). As for this thread causing problems, I don't think it will if people are willing to stay on topic. Anyways, thank you for sharing your opinion; it gives me some insight into how some other people think, which is always a plus in my book.

Barathemos : , LunarDarkness2 : and RDay13 : No, no one's getting any heat over this, don't worry. I posted this thread to see how people would feel after hearing about this situation because I was still trying to make sense of it myself. After hearing your responses, I think the best course of action for me really was to just ignore that message and post this invitation because if I just said no to that person, they would probably either just think I was trying to make up some excuses for why I won't throw the match, or just resent me forever for not complying with their demands. However, by posting this, I think they've begun to understand my views a little bit better. It's probably also nice for them to hear that there are others on Vizzed who wouldn't necessarily say no like I would have.

This is serious stuff here. I'm one of the few that does know yuna well because. She's my friend. She's a wonderful person since I took the time to know her and we like similar stuff. Besides that. It takes a lot for yuna to make a thread like this so that brought my attention. I'm going to put some input of her, what others have said and my thought about it. I completely agree with what yuna has to say. And those 3 people who disliked her post didn't try to understand what she was saying within her messages. Ask yourself this. Does it really make sense to ask someone to not get that jersey because you want it? Or your friend wants it? Competitions is about trying to see if you are able to challenge yourself with things and how to bypass of getting a certain jersey and to work hard for it. When you ask someone not to get that jersey even once. I find that IS cheating. How? Is it fair to ask someone for a jersey instead of working hard for it? Especially if it is a staff? If there is something you guys should know or most. Staff don't cheat to get jerseys I've seen whatever jobs that they have they do because its their job. Not because they take so many jerseys. And here is something else. What if they don't want to get that certain jersey but they get it because of their staff job? That explains what yuna does and her job so that's why I never questioned it. The sad thing is that some people or at most are not willing to try and understand this. :/


I said this before heck 100 times and I will say it again. Most people take the tdv WAY to seriously for no reason. Then what happens next? Drama. Which is why I stopped competing long ago. And hide when tdv comes. tdv is meant to be FUN not something you go out of your way to like say something bad of your competitors. I'm not upset yuna. It takes a lot to get you to do something like this, and if that's the case its something that worries me. Your a quiet person and don't often post unless it is a big and serious thing. All I ask for those who dislike this thread to reread and try to understand where she is getting at instead of bashing it the wrong way. And if you don't try too then that's your own problem. '-'

Yuna1000 :
I'll be honest with you: your post pretty much said what I think of the TdV. Don't get me wrong folks, it's an interesting competition. Members add content to the website and the activity increases, that's a fact. Although, it's no longer a competition when some people try anything to get their name with a nice and colored banner/jersey for one day or the whole month, even corrupting the other competitors so they don't compete for a day or two. That's not how you play fair, you get recognition and you move on, oh no. You might lose more than you could win in the end.

And that's why I lost complete interest in the TdV. Not only because I already achieved something in the past TdV editions (and let's face it, it was quite predictable that this day would come at some point) and I don't feel like doing this over and over again but also because some people take that competition way too seriously; to get a bit of fame here on Vizzed, maybe.

In all honesty though I understand the overall point you're making and I do agree with some things having to work for your accomplishments.. I do however feel like you're not doing this full justice with your post. As staff you do have a higher cap on your actions and are able to do some actions that other members either can't or it takes much more time for them to do. In the same way David can get more actions than you if he desires so can you compared to most of the memberbase. You got a special jersey because David felt sorry about that something which pretty much no other member  has gotten no matter how hard they worked during the TdV. You felt that was unfair in the same way those who aren't staff might feel you competing like that is unfair. I'm assuming this member was someone who wasn't staff or up even if they actually tried to win, they might not have been able to match you in actions simply because of that staff advantage. I'm not blaming you simply because you're staff I'm just making a point. I well understand where you're coming from since I'm staff+ and have won the overall green jersey previously.

Also you said mentioning his friend might've netted him a DQ. I completely disagree with that. His friend asked not the person competing himself. It is true he might've had him ask on his behalf but there is no way to actually know if that's the case unless he admited it. We always need to take the safe before the unsafe. Unless he was persistant that really shouldn't result in anything more than telling him off for it.

I also completetly disagree with the attitude that you should have to become staff to be able to actually suggest changes. When you are staff+ you're likely going to see it from a different perspective because you have that advantage and you want to get recognition for your actions.  You're in a position where you're prone to being biased. Staff are more likely to want to keep it that way simply put. I would honestly like to see at least trusted and elite members have more influence in this to get all parts of the memberbase involved as if everyone has a voice it's going to make more people interested in the competition. It seems I'm in the minority there however.

For the past TdVs pretty much only staff+ are winning red and green and the other jerseys too for that matter. Sure that might be because staff+ may have more interest in the competition. But we should be looking at ways to get those below staff rank into the competition. Not tell them off (not talking about this particular case but in general) when they're saying they feel it's unfair and that they should become staff if they actually want to suggest those changes. That seems like exactly the thing that would turn them away from the competition. It can take years to become staff if you don't get lucky and we can only have so many staff members.

Lastly though you didn't talk about this I want to bring this up because I have a feeling someone might say so in response to this post otherwise. I understand staff might have to work for that TdV advantage through being staff but that goes back to one of the points you made that I actually agree with. Where's the fun in competing if you know you have an advantage and therefore don't have to work as hard to win during the actual TdV?

Anyway this is just how I see it. A lot of people are probably going to disagree with me but I felt like I needed to say it.

I didn't know some people took tdv this seriously, but I can see why someone would ask a staff member to temporarily drop out of it for a jersey though.

Are you aware of how many times I had to scroll down so I could read your full thread in my small laptop, cruel person?

I haven't been here for long, but we've seen many instances of people taking TdV way too seriously. Cheating, rule bending, bribing, menacing... All kinds of bad attitudes have bloomed in one or more TdV, and I'm sure everyone can think of at least one user that exploited such bad attitudes, which comes to say just how many users willingly go overboard to win whatever they're aiming for.

A thread like this is precisely what those of us who have grown delusional about the TdV want to see. Some people thinks it's US who are going overboard by saying we're not interested in this competition "for selfish reasons", but the very first reason why we're not interested is because of the attitude some users display.

I do take some things very seriously, I must admit, but I'd never go to such extremes, simply because then it's not an achievement, it's not something I've rightfully earned. There's no point in winning something because the competition is (or has been told to) backing off, and I'll never understand why people is so focused in keeping up with those attitudes.

While I do agree with some things you mention, I disagree with others, just like what Zlinqx said about the DQ. All I have to say is that threads like this don't serve any purpose, because people willing to go overboard now will always be willing to. We've seen examples of people repeatedly going overboard and getting DQed many times, yet their attitude doesn't change. Thus, I don't really see a point in this thread, because you're not going to change the mind of those who want to win by any necessary means. It's okay to speak your mind, because the TdV is always looking for changes and we need opinions about everything that is going on, but you're not going to change anything beyond that.

Zlinqx : I agree with what you said. Especially about having to be staff to be able to suggest changes. With being Staff, I didn't step down because I was a bad member or anything (at least, I didn't think I was or am :p). It was because of time constraints, which is a common reason of stepping down. Does that mean my opinion is lesser than Staff since I'm not one anymore? No. I'd actually go to argue that it gives me a more balanced perspective (due to being a past Staff member who sees it from both sides), but that's besides the point. I may have a different opinion than the Staff, and that opinion is completely valid.

Also, this is my opinion, but I think the changes should be to make things fairer for the majority of the users, and there are more non Staff users than Staff users (activity is another thing completely, but I'll keep this simple :p). Yes, Staff are also more likely to know all the ins and outs, so I'd say both the Staff and non Staff opinions are equally valid and should be taken into account (of course if the user in particular is a rule breaker or is particularly nasty, then that's a possible exception). As for bias, I'd say that both are susceptible to bias but when I was Staff, I won't lie, I liked the advantage I had in the Green jersey :p.

Zlinqx : Yay! You posted after all! XD I was wondering if/when you would come to talk about making changes to the TDV. I'm sorry to report that my experiment sort of failed. =/ According to you, I didn't put enough in my post so some people didn't get my main points, but I think I might've put too much so that they lost sight of everything. x_X I guess I'll have to work on trying to express myself better next time. As for not mentioning the higher cap on our actions as Staff, I didn't feel the need to mention it again since most everyone knows about it; even the new members can see that as soon as they look at their own CP page. However, what they don't always know/realize is that most of us started off as newbies before we reached Site Staff and above. You're good at guessing people's rankings, etc., but since I already said I won't be revealing anything about that person in this thread, I can't tell you that, sorry. ^^0 What I wanted to tell the person though, was that I didn't start off in my very first TDV as a Staff member, nor did I ask other people to let me win either. I mainly made this thread to tell them, their friend, and anyone else that may be considering doing the same thing, to save themselves some trouble and work on improving themselves instead. It's not impossible to become a Staff member since we're evidence of that, it just takes time and effort to reach where you want to be.

About the friend potentially receiving a DQ, I know what the chances of that would have been, but I had to say it to let them know how serious I considered these types of situations... and that we are always watching everyone. I'm sure the friend wanted that person to ask so that the friend wouldn't get in trouble (they know we don't shoot the messenger... or do we? oO j/k ) so this was just my way of telling them to stop thinking like that because it'll be a whole lot messier before it's over. At the time, I had a few options, and I chose to post this thread as opposed to just naming them in the (Content hidden from non-Staff members!) because this way, they'll still get a chance to compete in the next TDV without people thinking ill of them or looking at them and going, "Oh, you're the ones that ask people to lose. You don't deserve to win at all, just quit already." The person that was asking most likely would never tell me their friend's name, so to prevent any misunderstandings, I took this course of action as opposed to sending a message back, which, if conveyed incorrectly again through another party, could potentially cause that friend to get upset at me for the wrong reasons. Now, they can see my reply for themselves, and I don't have to "tell either of them off" or anything. They can also choose to change themselves so that something like this doesn't happen again, and practically no one will know who they are (I guess whoever can see my messages will still know).

About becoming Staff+, I agree that non-Staff can suggest changes but we also have to be somewhat realistic about a few things. Who would you trust to know a TDV better, a new person that just joined and don't know the rules but want them changed anyways, or a seasoned Staff or veteran that's been breaking it since forever j/k? Correct! Neither situation is good. lol In all seriousness, I agree that you don't necessarily need to become Staff+ to give your opinion, but you won't have a good grasp of everyone's views until you walk in a few other people's shoes. Just so you know, no one can ever be without bias, and objectivity is near impossible. However, the main reason I suggested they try for Staff+ is because you can't change anything without knowledge and power (sad fact of life). If you don't know your opponents' weaknesses, how are you going to win? Without some sort of understanding of how they operate, how are you going to counter them? And then, what will you counter them with, if you don't have any sort of power? Yes, magic is always the correct answer. No one can question magic, not even Einstein. j/k? However, I agree that it would be nice if we could get more Trusted and Elites to join in the discussions, if the majority of the Trusted would stop being so frightened of being banned for "accidentally saying the wrong things or not agreeing with the Staff" and the Elites... would make time to come back to visit. XD

Otherwise, I agree with your view that we should be trying to get those below Staff+ to join the competition so that not only Staff+ will keep winning the Reds and Greens. Aww... It's just like you to make things easier for them. I know, from the way I posted, it sounds like I'm telling them that to suggest anything, they have to become Staff+, but I really couldn't think of a way to tell them to get better without mentioning the word, "Trusted" (that's a nice can of worms... nope, not going to open it). But since you so kindly mentioned it anyways... If ever they decide to ask me, "What does it mean to become Trusted?" and "Do I need to be Trusted before I become Staff?" I hope you won't mind if I send them to you. ^__^ In all seriousness though, I had hoped they would be able to figure that part out for themselves (I deliberately skipped it in my history... you could tell, right? D= ). On the way to becoming Staff+, you'll need to learn and acquire some skills, all of which will make you a better Vizzed citizen. Even if you don't make it to Staff at the end, you'll likely already be Trusted and have a fair amount of experience/knowledge about the Vizzed Community, and made enough friends to have sufficient influence for pretty much anything.

Finally, thank you for bringing up the point about the advantages Staff have in the TDV. I'll be addressing that in my next post.

EX Palen : Aww! I'm so sorry for making you scroll!! DX I was still trying to figure out how to make my font larger (the spoiler tags seemed to have messed up my attempts somehow T_T ) and none of my scrolling layouts have been working out very well. D= I just went ahead and bought one and I really appreciate that you still took the time to read my post anyways. As for your viewpoint, I agree that a lot of things happen during the TDV that never ceases to amaze me with its originality/creativity. People are terribly efficient at finding loopholes and exploiting them, but at the same time, I think people have the capacity to change themselves for the better (and thus I made this thread). There was one TDV a while ago when the TDV rules were changed so that Staff members could no longer feature their own reviews during a TDV. I'm sure someone must have caused the TDV rules to change, and since we haven't seen anything on that scale since, I kind of think that whoever caused the rules to change has improved themselves to become a better competitor. Not to be a devil's advocate, but I sometimes think we can learn from the bad stuff that happens (if no one had tried to feature their own reviews, we'd never have known that doing such a thing would have been such a terrible gamebreaker, right? ^^ ). When the Staff took action to correct that, other people were also able to see it and learn from it, never to do it again. In a way, I think it is possible to change, even if it's one tiny step at a time.

As for what you said about people becoming delusional about the TDV, one thing that I think is terribly sad is that people have begun to hide themselves behind a mask of indifference. I'm sure plenty of Staff actually want to compete, but they think the rules aren't completely fair right now and they don't want to accidentally mess up to get an empty win. Thus, they do their best to act like they don't care and then say, "Oh, I got the Yellow by accident? I must be super lucky today or awesome!" And yes, they would even cross out the "awesome" just so people won't accidentally think they were *gasp!* heaven forbid, actually trying! With enough of this, even the most interested competitors are probably going to lose heart at some point (it is actually more taxing to lie than to tell the truth after all).

Thus, I don't think my thread is completely pointless...

What fun is a competition in which people that can win can't celebrate, and the people that want to try to win feel they must stand aside or keep holding back for fear of ruining the competition? Is it fun to you, or to anyone, for that matter? In times like those, wouldn't you feel that something's definitely wrong with the competition? And thus, what is a competition to you?

In all seriousness, I wasn't surprised at all when, right after I asked that question, LunarDarkness2 immediately jumped in to try to tell me how unfair the TDV appeared to him, using the example of what was probably already a crazy fight to normal users, namely the one from another TDV: Site Staff vs. The Site Owner.

(Don't worry, Lunar, I wasn't even thinking of roasting you, you kinda jumped into the flames yourself. Wait a sec... You've been on fire all this time?! DX Quick, Squirtle! Put out the fire! You poor thing... =/ Sorry for not noticing it quickly enough. Glad that you didn't have to become LunarDarkness3 though. ^^0 )

What you said about people thinking it's the Staff that's going overboard might actually be a direct result of the fear and hopelessness that's probably been building up as more people find that the TDV rules are becoming more and more strict as well. The normal users feel more and more hopeless, while the Staff that's trying to compete (or even those that aren't), are increasingly afraid of stepping on the normal users' toes for fear of receiving complaints. For this TDV, I did have actions that normal users couldn't perform, but I tried whenever possible, to stick to actions that they can, however futile my efforts may be. As Zlinqx pointed out, I have a higher cap on my actions than the average user, so naturally, I'm going to feel a little bit iffy about performing my full range of actions. (I haven't even discussed CP multipliers and how soon, I'll have to find other ways to "handicap" myself.) However, I can't just neglect my duties or else I'll never meet my Quota, much less fulfill a certain promise. Even if I didn't want to join the TDV, I ended up joining anyways. However, because there are others that joined the TDV and were completely serious about it, I felt that it wouldn't be right of me to trample all over their feelings by NOT taking the competition seriously as well. All in all, this becomes a vicious cycle that makes it so that I'll always join the TDV every time, and I'll always be seen as going for the Green, even if I'm actually going for the Red. =/

I want to say, "it's time we make some changes to the TDV that will make it so no users will have to ask someone else to 'let' them win, even for day," but I understand that there will still be users that can't see the point in trying to make any changes. (I'll keep trying to help to make the competition more fair though! XD ) In any case, thank you very much for sharing your opinion, I always look forward to reading your comments because they're always so insightful! (And once again, I'm sorry about my layout (or rather, lack of) earlier! x_X )

Final Weapon : lol That's kind of like Barathemos then. XD No worries, even he didn't realize how seriously the Staff took the TDV until he joined the Staff himself. =P As for your opinion on this issue, I'm guessing you might agree with the viewpoint that right now, it appears the Staff often end up dominating the jerseys whether or not they want to? And the new people that join the TDVs, since they aren't familiar with all of the rules, either end up getting themselves DQed or are unable to figure out (until it's too late) what they need to do to win the Overalls?

Yuna1000 : Well, I used to hold a pretty grim viewpoint on tdv because it seemed like only the staff would obtain all the jerseys every single time. I remember making a thread one time regarding the matter. I also made a couple of suggestions about changing the rules so other members like myself would have a fair chance at winning as well. But during all of it, I begin to wonder if the staff was really the reason why no one could win a jersey. It was then I finally realized that it was not the staff, but rather it was my own personal difficulties and past experience with the previous tdv. I took it all into account and blamed it on both trusted members and the staff. The only real problem was me not being able to find anywhere to post during tdv. If it wasn't for that, I think I would've had a pretty decent chance at winning at least one jersey during this month's tdv. Lunardarkness once told me that it just requires a lot of hard work and determination. I believe that now. Maybe after I take a break from vizzed for a while and clear my head, I might try my hand at tdv again. This time with a whole new perspective.

Yuna1000 :
Indeed, I was happy the first time I got my very first jersey (which was as far as I remember mixed with another color before the rules changed). Now I feel the same way whether I get one or not. So expressionless, to tell the truth. Because it didn't change that much about my popularity (like I really really care about that frankly). I give my renown to the Vizzed members especially, not only what I'm doing on Vizzed. I'm grateful to the people who read my game guides, give feedbacks... and, most important, I give that to two people: David and tRIUNE. We created together a position that never officially existed on this website. A position that greeted and still greets dedicated members around the table. That position goes by the name of "game guide writer". That is the best achievement I've ever done and I'm happy to do something I've always wanted to do in my life and shared with people.

And if people wants to play with fire, it's at their own risk. They'll have to blame themselves if people don't trust them and/or bad things happen in the future. Honestly, I've never seen corrupting people having a good reputation. And depending on the intensity of the thing and how people react to this, it's more or less forgivable. I myself learned how to forgive or not a person for its acts. And my heart, by the time I write this, has so many wounds I'm trying to cure, hardly. But that's off topic and I don't wanna talk about that truthfully.

Yuna1000 : I posted a guide past 6 AM one day just so I could get Yellow and Red, back in April last year or beyond that. Right after I did that, the last hour rule was implemented. I feel kind of guilty for it, but on the other hand, if it wasn't me, somebody else would have spawned such rule, seen in the several DQs we've handed out for that rule since it was implemented.

Back then, I really wanted to compete, because I couldn't aim for anything else than daily jerseys. However, after I tried hard for a top 10 finish in July 2015, I became a bit delusional about the competition, and stopped caring about it. I got a bit of that interest reignited when the chance opened before me to make an even better result, but I opened my eyes to discover that what made me grow delusional hadn't go away, so I lost interest in it again and stopped my attempt to actively participate.

As you said, there's people open to change their minds, but some aren't. This thread will surely change the mind of those who didn't have any ill will, but for the people that wants to win no matter what nothing will make them change. That's why I said this thread is pointless, because the people willing to change do see the errors in their attitude and don't rebuke a DQ or ban when handed out and don't need to be reminded of fair play.

I don't think Staff refrain from competing because of an unbalanced competition. I got 8th overall without doing anything special I didn't do in March or February, for example, so other staff that do push themselves a bit because of TdV might find themselves accidentally winning something or everything. It's inherent to our position that we're more active than non-staff members, so it's completely logical that we get top positions easily, we're more used to high activity levels.

When I say I got an accidental jersey, I say it because it actually is accidental. Like I said, I'm not doing anything special on top of my usual activity, so getting a high position because of that is unexpected. Of course, when I post my monthly guide the jerseys I get aren't accidental because they're more or less bound to happen, but other times I've got a top 5 position without even knowing it.

For me, a competition is a challenge. Just like I've seen people complain and accusing of cheating on a netplay tournament, I'm sure there will always be someone complaining about staff being overpowered in the TdV. In both the netplay tournament and the TdV, there's always people capable of doing more and better than you, and you must accept it and try to improve (or give up and congratulate the winner). For example, I can't hit +30 posts a day even once when geeo does it almost everyday, but on the other hand, geeo has claimed himself to not be up to the task of writing a game guide when I've written +20. This comes to say that everyone is strong in a specific field and weak in others, it's just that some people won't accept they're weak (or inferior) to somebody else in any field, and that is what spoils the fun of everything.

About the higher cap we staff have, it's just an issue for Green. Yellow and Blue are up for everyone, no matter how many forums that user has access to, and Red is also up for everyone, because the actions that earn the most CP are open to everybody. We have an easier time in Red, but we also have our staff quotas, and we try hard to get them done every month, not just TdV. About Green, I've always thought that staff actions shouldn't count, so probably we could make a claim to remove them from that jersey. After all, we care about being rewarded our CP for quotas, so as long as we receive that we will keep doing our work to the best of our capabilities. It would be unfair that we cannot earn CP for our actions when we have our quotas, so that's a disadvantage that normal users will have forever and there's nothing we can do about it.

I didn't think I would rant this much, but I guess it was needed to make my point clear.

Yuna1000 : The reason I brought it up is because I wanted to make a point of how I don't it's weird someone would ask that sort of question. There really isn't any difference here between David winning the jersey doing actions only he can do and you or another staff member winning the jersey over normal members. Thus while I do agree that the person should work for the jersey and that it should require effort (like I said that's not really the issue I have). I think it's unfair to put the blame on him like this even if you did not mention that person by name. In particular when you yourself seemed to feel it was unfair when David won the green jersey leading to you getting the special jersey. 

I understand the need to tell his friend off for doing so. But I felt like bringing in the other person into the discussion was a bad idea. Saying he'll be DQed for something he may very well not even have any involvement in. In particular when his friend only asked this once and to my understanding wasn't being persitant about it. 

Sure all of staff were normal/trusted members at some point but that's often quite long ago and the TdV has changed a lot since. Back in the day pretty much all jerseys were posting related and it was much harder for staff to have an advantage there than it is in terms of CP related actions. The CP multiplier is a bit different since it's not staff restricted and more comes down to having had to stuck around for a while to have a chance at winning red. Which I also don't really like. I feel like part of the fun of the TdV I think at least is seeing new users emerge from the shadows and win jerseys in stead of the same people who compete every TdV. Not saying those people shouldn't be able to compete but they should at least have to compete on equal terms.

It's easy to think we know best just because we're the current staff and are investing a lot of time into the site but the same goes for many trusted/elite members. These newbies you're talking about would primarily be regular members, since to become trusted you need to invest a fair amount of time getting to know people in the community. Elites are pretty much only ex staff/locals or people who have otherwise made some jmajor contribution to the site and are sometimes even more experienced than the current staff with how the site works. The majority should be able to offer a valid perspective. I feel like even if you still disagree with that I don't see much reason to why at least elite+ can't be included.

Even that said what I'm suggesting is not to have trusted/elite dictate how the TdV should work but for their opinion to count and be accounted for in stead of kind of being kind of brushed aside unless they can get staff members to back it. Sure total objectivity is pretty much impossible we're human after all, but we should strive to come close and getting the perspective of everyone is a way of doing that. It would also just make sense to get these people's perspective considering the goal would be to get more people of their site rank into the competition.

Of course this is all in theory however, it still ultimately comes down to what David feels is best.

Now going a bit into your response to Palen since you brought that up in your post. I'm aware of that rule because I was the first one to bring it up and was one of the people who caused david to implement that change. This all depends on someone on staff doing so however. It's easy to grow comfortable with the advantage you have during the TdV or simply not notice the advantages you may have because you've been staff for so long. i'm not blaming staff that's just simply how I'd say it is. Which is why I feel we need more different perspectives here. Also while yes of course you shouldn't neglect your site duties but one would be able to meet quota with just 1-3 days of work (for most high amount of action roles) and well exceed it after that without having to go past that trusted member cap for the same action every single day. It's not a matter of stopping ones actions entirely it's a matter of not going overboard most days by going far past that cap.

Of course if it was up to me I'd just suggest there would just be a rule change so that going past that cap wouldn't count to your TdV scores. That way you'd still earn CP and Viz for your work and have nothing stopping you from doing your job but it wouldn't rig it so staff are more easily able to win. It would as a nice side effect also encourage to a do a lot of different actions in stead of a doing a ton of a single action.

Final Weapon : About whether or not the Staff = the reason why no one can win a jersey, no worries, we're also discussing that to see what can be done to make the competitions more accessible to everyone. It's actually really nice when people decide to share their perspectives so we can better figure out how to improve everything, so feel free to pitch in too, if you feel strongly about something. Keep in mind though, that you'll have to take other people's perspectives into account too when you do that. (Some people might end up disagreeing with you, but that should make you try to figure out why they do, so that you either won't remain ignorant, or even better, you won't fall into their traps of ignorance.) Otherwise, have fun posting, learning new things and enjoying the games on Vizzed. Stick around long enough and maybe you'll be in for some nice surprises. XD

I'm glad to hear that you've been thinking over everything (a lot of people don't even reflect on their actions, so it's nice to know that you do) and that you've decided to try again, this time tackling everything from a different angle/perspective. With that kind of attitude, you're sure to be able to reach your goals.

Also, I know other people have probably already mentioned this several times, but I hope you don't mind hearing something similar again. Hold on to your resolve! Every time you feel scared and want to run away, stand your ground. Every time your fingers move to submit something like a leaving thread, think 3 times before you do anything and if you still want to hit the button, stand up and walk away. If you're really not sure if you should post something, go find someone else and ask for their opinion before posting. Yes, literally ask them, "Do you think this post is going to help anyone at all, if it's even going to help me?" If the answer is no (even when you're only asking yourself) don't post it. It's probably not worth your time (or TPs if you really care about TPs that much). If you can't find anyone else to ask (you have friends here on Vizzed though), then feel free to ask me via PMs and I'll let you know what other people will most likely think about your post. Just note that I will sometimes ask my friends if I'm not sure about something myself, but you can be absolutely sure they won't know I'm actually asking for you, so don't worry about anonymity.

Tell yourself that you're a good person and that's what you're going to be working towards from now on, and the people of Vizzed will respect you for trying. You're already brand new once you make up your mind to be. Your name is a good one, don't worry about trying to change it. If you want to know the truth, when I see a name like "Final Weapon," I think of that last trick a person has up their sleeves, basically that "final weapon" or "ultimate/special" they have kept stored up to use for winning in anything. A royal flush, a Final Smash, or even a 10x Kamehameha, whatever you conceive it to be. That's why your name, to me, is actually a really good one and it would be sad to see you abandon it so quickly. Now, you seem like a sensitive person, so if you've also started to think about whether or not you're deserving of such an awesome name, then know this as well: you're the one that decides whether or not you deserve it and whether or not other people will respect it. Don't you feel the power yet? People will change their minds about things all the time, depending on what's going on in their lives and what you say/do, and whether or not they understand your true intentions. Keywords = Whether or not they understand. How many people do you know of that don't take the time to read an entire post (certainly, you've seen tl;dr ?)? Exactly. So don't worry about your name or if people don't always love your posts. In fact, if you keep it, once you become Trusted and above, you'll be even happier that you kept it. Other people will respect you more for keeping it, too. Just so you know, we're always watching you, so whenever you do something good, cheer for yourself too, you've likely just made a friend you don't even know about yet.

EX Palen : About the rule that was implemented after you posted your guide, I agree that the rule was bound to appear no matter what, so you really shouldn't worry too much about it anymore (it sounds like you still feel guilty about it, aww). After all, you don't do those kinds of things anymore right? And now you also pay attention to the DQ rules, so it's obvious you've changed since then.

Hm... I'm still trying to figure out exactly what you meant by "delusional" (would you happen to be able to explain that in a different way?) and what it was exactly that made you "delusional" in the first place, but I get that you think we might need to change up a few things before you'll think the TDV is interesting again. Seeing as many people have also said the TDV is no longer interesting to them (and it's not necessarily always because they've won everything already), this probably means we need to either start giving out new rewards or creating new incentives for people to participate. Davideo7 mentioned before that he was going to try to implement scripts that will automate the team competitions, but that seems to be on hold for now because he's trying to fix other things. Would you be willing to sign up for teams like that if it's ever implemented, or would you still stay out of the TDV?

Also, (I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, really! D= please don't take offense!) I think I kind of need to point out that you've automatically assumed the person that contacted me doesn't have an open mind. I'm more or less an optimistic person and I don't have any twisted desires to get people in trouble for no apparent reason (sorry, I'm not a troll and I don't crush people unless they hurt my friends), so I thought I'd post this rather than simply hand out their names. I understand that this thread probably won't change the minds of those who will do anything to win no matter what, but I created this thread because I didn't think those people I encountered had any ill will and to show them I really do believe they can/will change. In fact, I think one's already beginning to understand, if they haven't understood already. This thread is for them, and the people that were wavering indecisively before they saw this. I'm hoping this will help them make up their minds about what they should do in future competitions.

Actually, I've heard some people say they're staying out of the competitions because they think it's unbalanced or too easy for them to win (just stating their opinion btw). I say people because some of them aren't Staff anymore, but they understand how to win better than some other people. However, I do agree that because we tend to be more active compared to non-Staff, most people will probably just "see" the Staff getting online every day and "trying really hard" to compete in the TDV. lol

Ohh So your jerseys are accidental? Nice! XD I know for some other people, they do try but they just won't ever admit it (and there's no way they'll say that here =P ). lol

I agree with most all of your points on how a competition is a challenge and how it ruins the fun when people don't even try before they resign. (Yeah, that was one of the main points of my thread...)

Oh, actually, I don't know if the higher cap is necessarily just an issue for the Green (that's why I'm still looking into this). The Red is often difficult for a normal user as well, even if they write reviews and walkthroughs because of the CP multipliers (but that's going off-topic and another can of worms). For the Yellow and Blue, we haven't really had any Staff members try to max out their post limit, which is higher than a normal user's, but if anyone can post more than they'd get credit for and still have it count towards the TDV, then you're probably right about those jerseys not being as much of a problem as the other jerseys. And as you say, Staff members (well, the ones that some people affectionately? called "try-hards") do care about being rewarded for their Quotas, so often, we'll keep doing our work to the best of our abilities, which results in people like me always going for the Green... or so it seems. There have been arguments over whether or not Staff actions should count towards the Green, and I think I'll go with yes, they should count, but there should be a better limit on how many count towards it. Having only 1 count is kind of sad, but having every single one count really might be overkill. But as with everything else, discussing ONLY Staff actions for the Green is kind of the problem, too. For any Staff that are interested, feel free to discuss, "What happens if the actions some Staff do are actually available to everyone else?" (Think carefully about my roles now.) Since they will still count towards the Green and we don't want to discourage users from participating by cutting down too many of their available actions, I find myself in favor of Zlinqx's idea about the caps so that Staff can continue to perform their work without worrying about having to continuously stop for the day just for the TDV competitions, which actually spans an entire month. [If I refrained from working or competing whenever the TDV comes around, that's an entire month of inactivity(!), and some Staff members (such as myself) think that renders our Staff roles pointless.]

Finally, there's no need to apologize for trying to make your points clear. Don't worry, feel free to write as much as you need to in order to clear up any misunderstandings. As I said, I appreciate hearing everyone's points of views, and thank you again for sharing yours. ^^

EDIT: Ahhh! I'm so sorry, I forgot to turn on my layout again! DX

Yuna1000 : I feel guilty about it because one of the reasons I'm delusional about the TdV is because of the people that get advantage of the last hours, just like I did back then. True, I wasn't trying to compete back then, but I still used a trick I now pursue to punish, so it's not easy to get that weight off my shoulders.

I use the word "delusional" because I couldn't care less about the competition. I'm only interested in seeing the battles unfold for jerseys and banners, for single days or the month overall. It's not only about rules, is also about those users I mention willing to go overboard for even the least important thing. I've seen some serious backstabbing, both intentional and unintentional, and until the former is eradicated through some rules we're discussing (and probably something else than just rules), I won't try to participate anymore. Probably I could sign up for a team, because after all I do get some points here and there, but that wouldn't change my interest in competing seriously.

While there exist some staff members that have incredible numbers during TdV months, I know of others (like myself) who keep a balanced activity. For example, I only earned 400 CP more in April than in March, and even with the surge of activity during a TdV, I only made 91 more posts.

Blue doesn't have any kind of cap, all posts you make for the day will show up. The cap is when you stop getting CP and Viz for it, but you can still make posts and have them counted towards Blue. So yeah, Yellow and Blue are up for grabs for any member regardless of their rank.

All staff actions shouldn't count for Green with the actual caps, that's for sure. I've placed in Green just because of staff-exclusive actions, and that's why I'm against them counting for Green. I think that all staff actions at 1 would be the most balanced for Green, but then again, that would mean there's very little to do in Green for the many caps it would have. Agreeing on a fair number to establish as a cap will take a lot of time and discussion, so nobody should expect Green to be balanced until next year at the very least.

While Red may be difficult for a normal user, it's all a matter of activity. I've sometimes seen myself surpassed by non-Staff members, both in a single day or in the overall jersey standings, so it's not impossible for them. I'm not someone who does a lot of different actions, but I'm sure that with a high enough level of activity it's easy to equal staff members in the standings for three jerseys. Then again, normal users tend to get overburnt after two or three weeks going all out when we staff are more used to our level of activity, but that's something we cannot change.

I took the time to count how many CP actions in a single day a Trusted Member could possibly perform (not counting outside influences like "Guest Referrals"). The maximum total would be 325 (including posting 75 times in a day).
It's easy to see why someone would literally HAVE to ask to win, seeing as how the daily winner for green is almost always over the 325 limit for a Trusted Member, let alone anything lower.

I'm not taking sides here, but I can understand completely why someone would ask.
It's not really a competition if no matter how well / much you do, you can't win period.

I don't see anything wrong about asking (appropriately). It's the individuals choice how to handle the request.

Mynamescox44 : Actually, some actions count as only one no matter how much of that action you did (which includes posting) so the actual actions a trusted member could do in a day is less than 300, which is why it is very much favored towards Staff. I'd say that every action should count for the green (excluding Staff+ actions) no matter whether it's above the limit or not. You wouldn't gain CP but the action itself would still count for the green jersey. You could always make it so that only actions that don't go above the trusted limit would count (basically Zlinqx's idea), but doing less than 300 actions is actually quite easy to do in a few hours which would absolutely kill the competition... and if you're worried about possible CP action spam, then don't forget the added time gap between actions (https://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=93758) which will very much help limit the spam.