Txgangsta : I see what you mean now
Thank you for elaborating.

And as much as I would like for there to be a teapot on the other side of the sun, I wouldn't believe it fully until I saw it.
Even if the logic made sense, I still have a hard time believing that Mars is a barren planet with nothing but red sand, even though images prove otherwise.

I believe in alien civilization throughout the universe, even though there is no evidence besides speculation of Earth-like planets.
I have faith that another planet (or multiple for that matter) holds some form of intelligent life, be they human-like or something different.

So let's pretend my belief in aliens is my belief in god. If I were to say that I believe in god, that would be as blind of a guess as saying I believe in aliens.

The difference is that I have a passion in the existence of intelligent life beyond earth, while other people have a passion for a God (or both in some cases)

I personally find god to be less logical because if there are infinite planets like earth, once again, there must be infinite colonizations throughout the universe. While belief in god is belief in a creator, or an "all-mother" or an overseer, and there are so many forms that god could take that it is hard to pick and choose which seems most logical. I feel like the existence of the all-mother sounds most pleaseant seeing how I would become one with Earth when I die (which physically I will) but mentally there is no proof for me to believe that.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is easier to have faith in things that strike your likeness or your personality even if all the options are illogical/ascending basic human logic.

I respect you highly for your opinions and your massive vocabulary, and I feel like this conversation is highly intellectually stimulating

cylonbait :

Yay! Successful communication! It's half the battle, I swear.

So if the logic is good, it would at least be less ridiculous to believe in something, even if the evidence and passion still aren't there. That's totally understandable. I believe my friends when they tell me that the latest CoD game is the best thing ever, but I don't really have a passion for first person shooters and don't care to play it either. I tell them that it's not a strategy game and so is immediately inferior =)

But really, I do think that the logical arguments supporting the existence of a god (and no, it doesn't really describe what God) are pretty solid. If the passion isn't there, then I understand the lack of religious fervor, but denying the existence becomes kinda difficult. Are you aware of the logical arguments? Or would you like me to describe one of the ways I think effectively makes a logical conclusion for god's existence?

Txgangsta : By all means, explain

cylonbait :

Certainly =)

So the most common proof is the absurdity of an infinite regress. The universe has a beginning. Science even asserts this in big bang theory. Science also doesn't allow for chaos. Cause and effect are necessary principles in order to understand. So, what can easily be concluded is that the beginning of the universe didn't happen randomly, but it was caused.

The only exception would be if the universe is a kind of thing that doesn't need causation. However, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. The universe itself doesn't explain it's own existence. Therefore, we must posit that there is a thing that is the explanation of it's own existence. Otherwise, everything would require a cause, and we would simply infinitely recede while never reaching any logical foundation.

So, the only thing that exists in an of itself is existence.

Sounds, weird, but this works the same way that "6" exists. Matter exists. But in that sentence, I've posited two things, "matter", and the fact that it "exists". And, most importantly, "existence" explains it's own existence. It, by definition, exists, and thus needs no cause. Thus, existence itself is the true foundation of all things.

And so, Christians since Thomas Aquinas (1240 A.D.) have been saying things like God is existence itself.

On last note, I'll talk a little bit about how we know existence itself to be a real thing. We need to analyze the claim "I am running". Pretty general. When thinking about the claim, which is logically prior, the subject or the predicate? Of course, the subject. If there wasn't a "me", there couldn't be a "running". "Running" is subordinate to some thing that can run. If I say that my bicycle is running, you'd definitely be confused because bicycles do not run. However, there are certain predicates that do not share the same logical order. When I say "I exist", which is logically prior? The subject "I" cannot be prior. It must be either that existence is prior or they are simultaneous. In either case, we must claim that existence itself is a real, separate thing that "I" cannot do without. When we say "The universe exists", we must therefore mean that existence itself supports the universe or that existence itself is actual in the universe (don't worry about the odd language here, it's unavoidable philosophical jargon). Regardless, existence is the kind of thing that, logically, is separate and real from objects.

Again, in a simplified form: We need a logical foundation for existence, and the universe itself doesn't provide it. We specifically need something that explains it's own existence, and the only explanation is existence itself.

Txgangsta : That is very deep and interesting! I see the reason to have to provide a cause. With that logic, there are endless possibilities to what could be that cause. I could even say that it was a Godly essence (something ascending our physical & mental plane) yet still disregard the existence of a heaven. I would lean more towards a being of immense power creating a perfectly balanced universe with infinite planets filled with intelligent life. 

But there are so many possibilities that there is no telling (for me at least) which form a God could take. That's the best part is that there are infinite forms a god-like being could take that it leaves everyone up to their imagination.

cylonbait :

Correct, it doesn't actually say who the cause is or even if it's personable, but it says it exists. At the very least, I think that deism is more logical than atheism.

Since I'm a Christian, I rely on other facts to pull me specifically toward Christianity. Proving that there is a God, I find, is much less difficult than proving what that God is like. I still struggle to do so on purely logical means. History makes things dramatically easier.

I think we can understand the being is personable on a purely logical basis, but it's a small stretch and derivative of another quality: rationality. In all the universe, we've found nothing that exists that compromises the tenants of logic. The stretch is to then say that nothing that exists is illogical. So, since we ascribe this God as being fundamental to existence, we can say that God is logical/rational because existence is logical/rational. The universe is put together in a nice, orderly way. Rationality implies personality because reason is an understanding. If the God understands, then it is a person, at least to some extent. Whether it has emotions is totally up for grabs, but it at least has understanding.

This is how Aristotle conceived of God. Deistic and contemplative. Of course, since God is perfectly rational to Aristotle, he would only contemplate the most perfect things. Aristotle concluded deism because he believed God spent all its time contemplating itself.

Christianity I largely conclude based on history. There are not good means to dismiss the historical claims of the Jews or the early Christians, so I find it more than likely that there was a Jesus, and he fulfilled the Jewish prophesies about a Savior by dying and rising again.

But the Christian claims I find logically wonderful, specifically the Trinity. That little piece of Christian doctrine that no one understands? I actually find it logically necessary for God to exist as a Trinity in hindsight, while those early Christians only found it necessary to teach a Trinity because it was the only explanation for the events they lived with Jesus. This makes Christianity very appealing to me because their revelation is this odd chunk that everyone has thought was so weird for so long. Yet, it was asserted as "a revelation from God" long before any value of the doctrine was discovered. I like this a lot because I think it means that it's way less likely anything was invented for pragmatic purposes.

So if this God exists, there are some dualities that need to exist. First, like Aristotle, I don't think God needs his creation or is equal to his creation. But of course, as I already asserted, creation is logically tied to God. So, the duality here is that God has no use for creation, yet still created. I understand this as God being both independent yet extended to all things, and a simple Aristotelian understanding of God doesn't account for why God is extended. Instead, there must be a way to make God both independent (because he has no cause) and yet extended (begetting other causes). Christianity does this beautifully by asserting a Father and Son. The Father is independent and detached, and the Son is extended and communicable. Christianity has taught this from the get go. The New Testament actually identifies the Son as the Creator, not the Father, and the Son that is the intermediary. The dualism necessary when understanding the greatness and humbleness is present in a Father-Son dichotomy as well. The Trinity is logically wonderful, and everyone else denies that kind of metaphysics.

Also, it's Easter. Happy Easter!

Txgangsta : Happy Easter!

Dude I highly respect you.
You are a smart person, and your statements are extremely deep and intelligent. I can't comprehend what you say until I dig deep and read it, and then it hits me how powerful your words are. We may have differing beliefs, but i find much joy in having this talk. You make me think in ways I haven't before, and have also led me to think about everything I do on a deeper level. I analyze more now. You are a cool mf

Txgangsta : Sorry about bumping this but I just read your post and found it interesting and wanted to pose some counter questions  since I do not feel this makes theism the logical belief. Even though my philosophy knowledge is limited I feel like an interesting discussion can be had from this. I'm responding to points you raised in several posts so this might be a bit jumbled.

You essentially seem to argue that because we can conceive god existing therefore he must exist. But that doesn't make sense in my mind. We can imagine something like a unicorn existing but that does not mean it actually physically exists or causes things in the physical world. So you say god does not physically exist. But how does something that does not physically exist cause the physical world as we know it? If a form of creator exists how do we know it's even a sentient being? And if god is a physical being and everything needs a cause and effect then how come god is exempt from that rule? 

Lastly how is an infinite regress impossible? Just because our minds have difficulties fathoming the idea of an infinite universe does not mean it is impossible that it exists. Many would argue time is a man made concept that we made to keep things ordered. Meaning it wouldn't have to abide by having a beginning or end. In fact since everything would need a cause and effect it would seem probable as nothing would've been able to come into existence without cause. Therefore leading to an infinite cycle of cause and effect. Meaning an infinite regress would not only be possible but probable. Making it in my mind more logical than something non physical that somehow wasn't caused creating the world.

As for the teleological argument I struggle to support that as well. We can see many flaws in our universe, for example why is it that humans have a blind spot that does not allow us to see fully?  Science does provide an explanation to how life on earth was caused, namely through random mutations and evolution over long periods of time. Furthermore while this allows for us to exist it does not make it the best conditions to exist under. We could've very well evolved differently possibly for the better if conditions on earth were different. Using entirely different energy sources in stead of the oxygen we need to exist. We do not know since we have no other Earths to compare ourselves to. While it may seem the most rational that does not mean it is. People seem to view it as the most rational because they see life existing as it does now as the only possiblity  as it is the only scenario we know of but nothing actually proves that being the case.

Furthermore I'm also curious how your reasoning ties into how the Christian god in particular exist. Since that's the topic of the thread. Because none of this reasoning seems to indicate god would necessarily be like the Christian god. 

cylonbait : Figured you might be interested in this as well.

Zlinqx : I never imply that we conceive of God, therefore he exists. That's false. I say existence exists.

An infinite regress is illogical because it is a kind of thing with no beginning. Why should an infinite regress exist without a beginning. I can make a metaphor with perimeter. We can have a square with perimeter 1000, 100, 10, 1, or any length. However, can we have a perimeter of 0? Or of a negative distance? No, not at all. An infinite regress, as it applies to existence, is that something is the reason for my existence. If that thing has a reason, then we go back two steps. If that thing has a reason, its three steps. However, if it goes backward forever, then we can never get to any actual reason to say "I exist". You can't just ask "why?" indefinitely. Otherwise there truly is no reason behind the claim "I exist".

Infinite progression is absolutely possible, just not regression. We can go forward forever and there is nothing illogical about that. However, if there isn't any grounding to a claim, the claim is illogical.

Formally, then logical chain A -> B -> C means "If A, then B, and if B, then C." From this, we can conclude A->C, "If A, then C." Whatever "C" is only exists because of "A". However, lets say that goes backward forever, such that something is necessary for A as well. Well, then C exists because of that reason. But that reason has a reason, and goes back forever? Logically, "C" couldn't exist because nothing ever starts the sequence. Everything is supported by some other thing.

Another analogy is a fuse. If you start a fuse, the fire travels down the fuse until it blows up the dynamite. Pretend "I exist" is the dynamite. But, notice that fire starts the reaction. You have to have a "start", otherwise a series of events never takes place.

Scientifically, no one believes in an infinite regress. We believe in a big bang. That's the starting event. And it's scientifically proven too.

For these reasons and more, infinite regress is impossible.

What I see in your post is reading in a few arguments that you know and projecting them on my post. Don't do that. I didn't mention an ontological or teleological proof. I didn't even say those words until just now.

Txgangsta : Sorry, the way I understood it you meant that because we can conceive that god exists, that proves he exists in a non physical plane. If I misunderstood or your other arguments my bad. I'll focus on what you actually discussed in your post.

We believe the big bang being the thing that created our universe as we know it exists. That does not however mean however that nothing at all physically existed before that. Many imply it does but that doesn't mean it actually is. t's just rarely talked about because even scientists have a very difficult time explaining what could've existed before that. I'm not going to claim I know that either but science does not rule out the possibility of an infinite regress being completely impossible just improbable. I don't see how some form of god creating the universe makes more sense out of this however. Since that would still mean something always existed (god) and which the laws of physics don't apply to. To me it would also seem improbable, making it seem like all of these explanations to some extent are illogical.

Another way of explaining it has been to use the concept of imaginary time. This makes sense to me. It's basically called that not because it's imaginary but because it runs in a different direction to the time we experience now. Running perpendicular to real time. Having no boundaries thus having no beginning or end but being finite in extent like the surface of a round ball. The thing that makes this theory plausible is that it would work with the no boundary proposal. That suggests that the laws of physics hold everywhere, there are no boundaries of which outside they don't hold. Imaginary time while finite in extent has no boundraries. It no longer matters what we perceive to be the beginning of our time, because imaginary time runs indepedently of real time. The universe would have no beginning per our way of measuring time. While of course it hasn't been proven it seems like the solution that would make the most sense of what we already know. Also it's speaking against the existance of god whom the laws of physics don't apply to as if these concepts are true, then something which the laws of physics don't apply to cannot exist.

Hopefully I managed to explain this in a satisfactory way even though I'm not a physicist.

I used to respond to these types of threads with about an hour of thought, but I don't have time for that now. But I will suggest to take a look and read this page:
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-allow-disabled-handicapped.html

Zlinqx :  
Hey bro? Zlingx, how are you doing today?
i like your slinky. it looks like you can spring back from this.
GMO is not healthy and will cause one of the extinctions of Mankind in the future.
GMO causes cancer and can physically alter your DNA strand. it is dangerous.
For your own safety and for the Life of Man, please do not eat this stuff, nor encourage of others to do so.
The reason why God is importaint is so that all of Mankind can be saved. Without God, and without your faith in God,
the entire world will be destroyed, and all life on it. And without God, your soul will burn in hell for all of eternity. God is a good parent because He CARES for all of His creation. God does not want the world to be destroyed, nor for 70% of the souls of people to go to hell, to burn in the ever lasting fire of eternal torment. God is a good parent because
{God shows to Man the way for thy world to be spared from death, to make'th of life in thy prosperity and'n in happiness, for'st of health and love to cometh to all of thy world. It is of thy faith in the Lord that'n will'st of to give'th of life to the world}
Without God, your world will be doom, with fire to rain from the sky in World War 3.
So you need of HOPE that your soul will be saved, so that your world will be spared from death, so that all of the Living will not be killed. with the love of the Lord, this can bring of great healing to all of the lands of the world, to lift of your spirit, to lift of Man. Where love can change the face the world.
it sounds like to me that you need more love in your life. and with the Lord, God can bring this to you. but first you must accept the Lord into your heart, to give of your entire heart to the Lord, and you will be delivered. you will be saved, and given of the GIFT of "Eternal Life". This gift can be yours. all you have to do is to have faith in the Lord and all of these things can be given to you. give of your heart to the world, give of yourself to the Lord and you will be loved be many.
{love of God, and love will'st of to come'th to ye, and no longer'n in the lacking. and'n of the health to get'n better, of thy world to be saved, of the souls of men to bee'st also saved. that this power from Heaven above will'st of to'st be so'eth given to ye, and placed into thy hands. of this GIFT, thy life to bee'st spared, of thy happiness to'n of renew}
your entire world will be given a chance to live again. to be raised from the dead. to be resurrected and to live again, where once of Man would have died instead in your future. you have this power. do not turn your back on the Lord, or your suffering will only of to be many and numerous, and will of to increase as your lack of love will of to turn of others away. do not turn your back on the Lord, or your world will be doom to destruction.
you are importaint. God loves you. the Lord shines upon all of Man. the love of God is for all to have, if only the so accept it into there heart. give of your heart to the rest of the world, and the entire world will become a better place. a New Age of Man will dawn upon the world; an Age of Man, like the Stone Age, the Bronze Age.
This New Age of Man will be so great that a man's jaw will drop in awe. This New Age of Man will be so joyous and happy that a tear will splash the face of a man from how beautiful that is from the love and kindness that is shown to them from everyone around them.
no one is perfect, so do not judge yourself. the Lord only wants to make people better, to be a better person, for of happiness to be more beautiful in your life with of good deed and virtue to bring. perfection is the goal. but love is your choice, and so you must give your love to God, or these things of true happiness will not come to you or your world. accept God into your heart and the Lord will lead you to the promised land; and you will find salvation.
freewill is your choice to choose whether your entire world lives or dies. freewill is your choice to choose whether your soul burns in hell for all of eternity. freewill is your choice to choose whether or not you save of the souls of other people. freewill is your choice to choose whether you try to make your life better by having of all the virtues in the Holy Bible and for true love to come to you. freewill is your choice to choose whether or not you give your love to the Lord.
{freewill is thy choice to choose'th whether'n or not'f of ye to'st of to help to prevent'th of the'st extinction of Man. freewill is thy choice to choose'th whether'n or not'f of ye to'st of swear fealty to'st of the True King of the world and the entire cosmos, the Supreme Authority, who so'eth to wear the Holy Crown. and'n if ye so'eth to'in swear of thy fealthy to thy Lord and savior, ye will'st of to'n be saved, and'n all'n of Man to bee'th saved}

Ston Wall : While I know your post is sarcasm, a lot of it is true. While the rest of it is pointless humor.

tRIUNE :

I'm reading the article and commenting on things as I read through it.

"Sin entered the world as a result of man’s disobedience to God, and that sin brought with it sickness, imperfection, and disease"

If God can basically do anything, why can't he erase sin? Then there would be no need for suffering or disabilities in this world. God has the power to fix mistakes. If he is a just God and he actually cared about us, wouldn't he try and do whatever he can to help us?

"God was glorified through the disability—in the case of the man born blind, the temple rulers had incontrovertible proof of Jesus’ power to heal"

If that's the case, how come many people that are Christians and have disabilities that don't heal?

"we see that all human ability—and disability—is part of God’s plan and that God will help His obedient servants"

Earlier, the article said that everyone has their problems. I agree with that statement. However, some problems are on a more severe degree than other problems. The article also said that. Why does it have to be harder for other people to get a hold of their problem or disability? Sometimes, they are never able to get a hold of their problem and stay under control.

"How can she speak of her “bruising” as a “blessing”? Only by the grace of God."

I used to be a Christian. I did believe he existed, until the end of 2015. And during that whole time that I was a Christian, I still felt that my disability couldn't be helpful in any way. (I understand now that there are 1 or 2 perks to having this disability, but those perks don't make up for the hundreds of symptoms someone may have).

"He has chosen the weak things of this world for a special purpose:"

As stated earlier, some people never become able to do what a lot of other people do. And they die sad and angry. Nothing special happened in their life. Well, special enough to be called a special purpose from God. I can't think of anything, to be honest.

LunarDarkness2 : I see where you're coming from Lunar, and it's a legitimate concern. However, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective, dude. I feel sorry for you as your parents forced you to attend church and youth group, even though you didn't want to, as that might be a  cause of you not wanting to believe in God. The thing is, you believe God doesn't exist because people have disabilities. That's looking at it very negatively. How many great things are on Earth? But God didn't make those, did he? God does nothing but give people disabilities. For every one bad thing is on Earth, there are so many more good things. It's easy to blame God for your hardships and struggles, but it's hard to thank him for the things he did give you and everyone on Earth. Just think about it this way. Since I believe in God, I'm obviously biased, but if God exists, then he created man. Computers and technology are a product of man. You say your disability is caused by God, but he's given you access to computers and other technology, which lets you get on Vizzed. Without Vizzed, you wouldn't have so many friends who helped you with life. 


I hope you see what I'm trying to say. In no way am I trying to be disrespectful to you, as you can believe whatever you want, it's not under my control. 

RDay13 :

That's not the only reason I don't believe in him. I think I stated some of my other reasons somewhere in this thread already. Sorry you typed all of that up. :c

LunarDarkness2 : Dear Truine,
how's your day going my friend?
hello lunar, nice to meet you!
i will discuss your questions next time and resolve all of your issues.
i will help to heal you. with the will of God, there IS a way my friend.
say hello to people and don't forget to thank people for talking to you and going out of their way to spend time with you out of the goodness of their heart.
such is the love of the Lord, that the Lord has time for you, even when others don't.
there is no humor in World War 3. the extinction of Man is not a laughing matter, nor is your soul burning in hell with the everlasting torment of agony and
fire. here is a history lesson. before Rome fell in history, the reason that Rome fell is because they tried to expand their border too far, just like today
in the US. we can learn from history, so that it can teach us lessons, like the lessons from the Lord. by knowing of these things, of history and to "know"
of the Lord, we can prevent the extinction of Man.
the King of Kings will lead us to the promised land. the King of Kings is but a vessel to hold of the Holy Spirit within.
{the King of Kings is the'st Hand of God to bring'th of the Divine Blessings from out of Heaven above to'st of the Earth, to heal'th of all thy lands, to
mend the hearts of Man. the King of Kings is the blessing of God's power. And'n on that day when'st God is to'st of walk the Earth, then of the blessings to
Man to bee'st of great and many, and'n of great number}
without the King of Kings, the power of God cannot lead of Man to'st the promised land. so all you have to do is to perform the Ritual of Purification and
you can prevent World War 3 from happening. you can prevent World War 3 from happening by having of all the virtues known to Man, of all the virtues listed
in the Holy Bible, even if its for only 2 weeks of time. if you do this, and perform the Ritual of Purification, if everyone in this nation, if everyone in
the world does this, then the first extinction of Man will of to have been prevented, and World War 3 won't visit the world, to end of all life.
it is real. it is all very real. the world is real. your life is real. God is real. the extinction of Man is real. this is THE most importaint thing in the
entire world. this is the Final Test of Man. and if Man doesn't pass the Test, then Man will be wiped from the face of the Earth because of the pestilence
that Man was.
{If ye are to'n of fail in this Test, the'st Final Test of Man, thy soul wilt of to great suffering and eternal pain, scorched in the fires of hell to die
over and over again zillions of times}
there are 8 extinctions of Man. even if it is but a single man for of their soul to save, this is of the greatest importaince, of such importaince that our
entire world rides on these things.
PARABLE
the difference between the world being destroyed or all of Mankind being saved came down to a single soul, where saving the soul of but a single man made the
difference between saving the world from extinction and giving of the world of life. there were so many souls that were going to burn in hell that of
those of the Lord were of few in number, and not strong enough with of the faith of Man in God to save all of Mankind. the number of souls of Man were half
to hell and half to Heaven, except that there was one more soul that was going to go to hell and one less soul that was going to go to Heaven. The disparity
of Man, whether of a lack of love, whether of a lack of money, whether of a lack of kindness that is shown to them by the others in their society around
them, whether of a lack of virtue, can make all the difference in the world.
{the soul of'st a single man can make'th the'st difference between life and death, of thy entire'n world. the'st soul of but a't single man is as'f importaint as'n the'st entire world itself}
{Do not'n doubt the King of Kings. Do not'n doubt that the'st King of Kings can so'eth lead us to'st the promised land. Do not'n doubt in God. Do not'n doubt the'st love that the Lord has'th for thee}

Ston Wall: I do not feel like you're being entirely serious in your post. But I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

I feel like most of the resistance to GMOs comes from people not understanding the concept and misinformation. There is no scientific proof that GMOs alter our DNA strand. Take a genetically modified tomato that has been engineered to grow in colder climates for example. It's using a gene found in Fish another organism we consume. We're not being exposed to some dangerous foreign gene, just the gene that originally came from another organism.

They also don't cause cancer. What started much of the controversy surrounding GMOs was a scientific report that noted growth of tumors in rats that ate genetically modified maize. This study has been proven to be false since however. For one the one conducting the experiment did not follow proper regulations but most notably used rats that were specifically known to develop spontaneous tumors. The whole experiment was rigged from the start to produce that result. Meanwhile there are tons of experiments that have spoken for the safety for consuming GMOs.

Meanwhile we're facing a growing population, while running out of land to farm on and also facing much more severe conditions to live and farm crops under. GMOs may very well be the only way to keep up with the demands of this growing population in what's becoming a more and more uninhabitable environment.

Really our main concern shouldn't be if they're safe for consumption. Our concern should be if they're properly regulated so they don't get into surrounding ecosystems. Because that could upset their balance and in turn have dire effects on our society.

As for the religious part it's pretty much just you stating things and expecting me to believe them. Saying that if I don't believe in god and christianity I'll be eternally punished. But if I do I'll be rewarded after death. That in itself isn't going to convince any atheist. Even if it would it doesn't seem like a good way of trying to convince people. They're not following Christianity because they genuinely believe in god. They're following it because they don't care and would rather be safe about it in case a god does exist thinking they won't be punished in that case simply because they pretend to be a Christian. There are thousands of religions however so even if you were to follow a religion for that reason and one of them are true it would essentially be like playing the lottery when picking which one to believe.

RDay13 : If you don't want to have a discussion based on this I understand since your post was directed to Lunar. But otherwise since you identify as a Christian and as someone who believe in god I would like to address your post. Even if you completely disagree I want to clarify a misconception you seem to have about atheists.

I don't think the reason you stated is the reason anyone doesn't believe in a god. It might be a reason they denounce a particular religion but not to become an atheist at the very least not on its own. Since that just indicates that god does not care about us, not that he doesn't exist. It's more of having to do with if god exists, why should you follow someone/something blindly that seems to show a completely lack of regard for our well being?

Assuming he does. Is it fair that people in Africa are born into poverty having nothing with a likeliness to die shortly after they're born? Is it fair to be born into a place where you're never taught about the Bible? Was it fair to be born as a jew in nazi Germany during the holocaust, and be sent straight to a concentration camp? What do those people have to be thankful for? They didn't ask to be born. But even if they wanted to live they were born into a world where all that awaited them was a painful death.

Speaking of modern technology by the way. Many of our greatest scientists and innovators are non religious or atheist. Even if god exists it's not like he simply gave someone a computer and told them how to build them. As an Atheist I think to say that god alone is responsible for our greatest scientific accomplishments is an insult to those great innovators who worked hard to accomplish those things. If I had a child and that child managed to invent a time travelling machine on his/her own, I'd be proud of their accomplishment but I wouldn't take the credit for him/her doing that.

These are just my opinions though. I do respect your beliefs, and I'm completely fine with you or anyone else being a Christian. I just want to try and make you understand where many atheists and non religious may be coming from in this regard.

Zlinqx : hi Lunar, how's your day going?
today i will devout myself to a discussion with you.
zlingx, nice to hear from you. thanks for responding, even if we have different opinions. despite all else you seem like a friendly guy who is respectful. that is a good sign.
i will address the scientific side of things next time in a discussion with you.
i noticed your dislike in the Lord. this can be a dangerous thing for your soul. this can be a dangerous thing for your happiness. And this can be a dangerous thing for the rest of the entire world.
by judging yourself for your misfortune because of what you look like or how you were born limits the amount of love that you will have left for the world. and when a man has little love for the rest of the world, very few people will be loved.
{because'th of one man to'n of a'lacking of love'n, many'f people will'st to'n be without'f love. because'th of one man, people wilt not bee'th loved}
do not do that to people, do not do that to the world, do not do that to God. the entire world is in dire need of the love of the Lord.
in a perfect society, no longer will of people to be born having to live with ridicule and shame and misfortune, with the inequity to have to bear their entire lives in endless pain and discomfort. no longer will people have to suffer in this way.
{but until the day when'st of a perfect society to cometh, of perfection of thy society, of perfection of thy health, of perfection of thy virtue, then'st of ye in'f of decisions to make'th}
of this choice, this be so yours to make. you have a choice: FREEWILL
1) you can go around your entire life feeling sorry for yourself and pushing away people who try to love you and to be your friend. you turn your back on the Lord, and keep losing of more and more of your love in your heart. that you will NEVER feel adequate and "equal" and feel good about yourself and love yourself for who you are as a person until your body looks like everyone else. but your body is merely clothes that you wear. it is your spirit inside your body that is real. your soul inside of your body is the real thing, your body merely an arbitrary substitute in of thought of mind. your body is just the clothes that your soul wears. God is testing you, and you must pass this Test, or your soul will burn in the fires of hell with eternal torment.
{a person can so'est bee'th the'st best looking person in the entire world, but have'th such'n a black heart as'n a heart as cold as ice, which hath not'n of any love left'n in it, and have'th of'n a personality and soul which makes them THE'st ugliest person in't the'st "entire world"}
2) you can start TODAY by starting to love yourself, but not by looking in the mirror. of material things, of money, of what your body looks like, of all of these things are insubstantial in the Eyes of the Lord. the Lord does not look upon you for what you look like on the outside, does not favor you by how much money you have in your pocket or how many material things that you have. the Lord favors those who have a good heart, of great and many virtues, and of good deed. you can start TODAY by having of FAITH in the Lord, and with of your virtue and deeds, if of many and numerous in number, you can be one of "The Chosen" of God, to help to heal of this Earth and all of its people, to prevent the extinction of Man. and when you begin to love the Lord, you will then be able to love yourself. the Lord loves you. let the Lord into your heart, let friends into your heart. let God be your "friend", and then you will "know" of the Lord.
{when'st of ye to "begin" to'st of love thyself, ye will start'n to bee'th able'n to'st open up and'n to'st love people. then, when'st of ye to'st start to love other people, other people will'st of then bee'th able to love'th of thee, and thy pain and misery to end and subside; for'st of a lack of love and a'lack'n of the Lord the'st ACTUAL dilemma. And'f of ETERNAL LIFE to'st then be thy "Gift"}

Ston Wall :

"Dear Truine,
how's your day going my friend?:

Terrible; as most of my days are.

I apologize for saying that your post was sarcasm and humor, but really, nobody talks that way:
'How does'th it go'ith' anymore.

If you were quoting from the KJV Bible please put the book and verse in parenthesis.