SoL@R :

I'm paraphrasing a near-perfect post from Wormwood on Christianityboard.com. He said so concise everything that needs to be pointed out. Some slight changes were made.

First, what is meant by "rapture". This is when suddenly millions of people simply disappear from the world because they have been "taken" by God. As depicted in the Left Behind series, planes crash as their pilots disappear, pallbearers disappear while carrying the casket. As the casket falls to the ground, the dead body is missing too. Then, after the people have been raptured, the "tribulation" begins and the Antichrist rules for seven years.

First, there will be "signs" for the rapture when it is "soon". Too many times people call Russia the nation of the North, formation of Israel, etc, etc, as "signs" to this upcoming apocalypse. Then they guess when the world is going to end and make Christians look like idiots, including those that realize the rapture was only invented in the 1800s. However, this doesn't mean there won't be a Second Coming of Jesus. But what do we do about wars and all these things pointing to the end?

“And Jesus answered them, 'See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.'” (Matthew 24:4–6, ESV)

So is it wars? False teachings? False saviors? Nope. Those things shouldn't worry you at all. What will actually be the sign of the end?

"Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” (Matthew 24:42–44, ESV)

The Second Coming will not be known until it happens. Paul writing to the Thessalonians compares it to sudden labor pains, and Peter in his second letter says that a common scoff will be "things have been as they always have". There will be no signs.

What does the rapture look like? Rapture means "caught up" and is taken from a verse of Paul in Thessalonians talking about how we will be caught up in the clouds with our Lord. But is this how we should interpret the end times? Do we want to be taken?

“'But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.'” (Matthew 24:36–42, ESV)

Who was it that was taken? Who was it that was left? It was the wicked who were swept away in the Flood while the righteous (Noah and his family) were left. You WANT to be left behind!

The righteous will be "caught up" as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians, but there is nothing secret about it (booming voice of an angel, and Jesus descending from heaven) and it is synonymous with the Resurrection. The dead receive resurrected bodies, and those still alive are also changed. The resurrection is the entire reason for Jesus' death, and it is ONLY in resurrection that reconciliation of creature and Creator is complete.

Txgangsta :

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this piece or missing something completely, but reading this, it looks to me like we are basically agreeing, apart from the section, "You WANT to be left behind".   It doesn't look like "Wormwood" puts the Rapture down.  It just says that there will be no signs and I agree with that.  No one can predict that as I've already stated in my previous post.  It will not be a surprise (or a secret as you put it) to the Christian as we should be always ready and the "signs" are indeed signs that the end times is close, not signs of the Rapture per se.  We are now living in a period of grace.  We are living, not in the last season, years or weeks, but in the last hours.  Exciting times for the Christian..

Txgangsta, it's probably no secret that of all the Bible sections, I know least about Revelations and any prophesy regarding our futures.  If I understand correctly however.... you are stating (in the most basic terms I can muster) that the 'Rapture' is an act of all BAD people being swept away while the GOOD people stay behind here on Earth?

What would be the point in that?

I think, in order to understand your interpretation, I need some more information.  In the briefest manner possible, can you tell me what you thinks happen before and after the 'Rapture'?  You don't have to list all details. Just paint a general picture.

SoL@R :

The big difference is that you want to be taken, which is unbiblical. If being taken up is bad, then it drastically changes how a chronological/historical interpretation of Revelation would logically be pieced together. The "great tribulation" would be affecting the Christians more than the non-Christians and the non-believers would be going to be with God in the clouds. Essentially, the entire thought would have to be completely changed.

Matthew 24:37 makes a direct comparison to the coming of the Lord to the days of Noah. "For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." What will happen to those taken? verse 39: "and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." The evil were killed in the flood, and the unrighteous will be taken away at the end. Noah was left behind because he was righteous.

Luke 17 is actually more graphic than Matthew 24. Luke 17:34-37, "I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.” And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” Those that are taken are dead corpses being feasted on by vultures.

So what is this "rapture" that Jesus is talking about? Heaven and Hell. Those taken will be the dead. You want to be left behind.

Likewise, when reading Revelation and Paul, you need to read it in this light. You'll realize that being caught up in the clouds with the Lord is Resurrection day, as are many other Revelation prophesies. Rapture theology was not discussed for 1800 years for a reason.

Singelli :

That is what I'm stating. And the point is because it is synonymous with the separation of the lambs and goats. The Last Day, Resurrection Day, the believers and unbelievers are separated. That is was has been misinterpreted to be a "rapture" and "great tribulation", etc.

Before the rapture as I have described (synonymous with the separation of lambs and goats), Jesus will have resurrected the righteous and the unrighteous. Before that, Jesus would have to descend from Heaven. Before that, it will be like a regular day and there will be no sign that the Last Day is mere moments from taking place.

I'm confused.....In my "Are You Rapture Ready?" thread, you stated that there will be NO rapture, and seemed to believe that very strongly. But now, you believe that the rapture IS real, but you think the non-christians will be taken? I'm very confused as to where you stand...

Popeye116 :

Do not be confused.  Trust the Bible and the Bible clearly states in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
It clearly states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.  Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. So like Singelli said, it does not make sense for unbelievers to be taken away since the Tribulation will take place here on earth.  The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.  I am however not disrespecting or putting down your views Txgangsta.  Biblically, it just doesn't makes sense the way you have put it.  The most important thing amongst all the pre-tribulational, mid-tribulational, post-tribulational discussions, is to do what 2 Peter 1:10 says, "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble."  Make sure you hold on to our Lord Jesus Christ.  Let Him be your focus.  As the lyrics of the songs goes:

Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.

I agree with everything except the part about wanting to be left behind. All I'll say there is that the Apostle Paul did say that "The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord". (1st Thessalonians 4:16-17. Note that only the end of 16 was quoted). I'm actually in a hurry, or I'd go into more depth, but this passage plainly says that we will rise and be taken to the Lord rather than left.


In short, we'll be taken, the wicked will be destroyed, and we'll come back down to reign on the new earth with Him. That's my opinion anyway.



EDIT: I see Solar beat me to it. lol

SoL@R : That is EXACTLY what I think. I wasn't confused about my position on the rapture, I was confused as to what txgansgsta thought, because he seemed to have changed his opinion in a short amount of time.

Popeye116 :
SoL@R :

Rapture theology, as generally taught in mainstream protestantism, is a heresy that no one in their right mind should believe. However, rapture literally means "to be caught up". So, I do believe that there will be those "taken", therefore I believe in a rapture. It's definitely not what is generally called rapture. My rapture is salvation and damnation, the separation of goats and lambs. Sorry for the confusion.

Again, I emphasize Matthew 24. The entire thing is listed there. Jesus speaks on exactly the confusion many have taken upon themselves. Who are the taken? The taken are like those swept away in the Flood of Noah. Being taken is bad. Jesus himself has a small sermon on it.

If I have not been able to explain it well, please simply read the last few paragraphs of Matthew 24. The rapture is compared to the Flood. The ones taken were those that God was angry with. Noah was left because of his righteousness.

SoL@R :
Singelli : 
Popeye116 : 
Eirinn : 
So, I haven't been looking into this thread too much just because of my recent End Times stance of "not high priority and not care of details" (Read more on my Background section), but with the new Left Behind movie trailer that came out (looked awful) and a bunch of new/recycled articles that popped up coincidentally with this event, I started to look into scripture more on this with the rules of interpretation in mind, and I am actually leaning more and more in agreeing with txgangsta on this.

---MY BACKGROUND ON THIS TOPIC (SKIP IF YOU DON'T CARE)---
My family has believed in Pre-Trib, and I just follow suit with what was taught and the scriptural reference at first glance makes sense in that position.Later, I got sick of the discussion and the predictions that certain Christians who are overly focused on End Times and nothing else in scripture, so I went from that view to the "not care and follow default" camp on End Times theology. At that point, I just think that as long as I am of Christ, whatever happens in the End Times wouldn't really be that big of a deal.

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Txgangsta : 
Let's try to clean our lingo here, shall we? I believe that when you say the common view of "rapture", you are referring to Pre-Tribulation view, where as the view that you posted is referred to the Post-Tribulation view. So you do believe in a rapture, just not the Pre-Tribulation view. When you say that the rapture is unbiblical, you are actually saying that Pre-Tribulation view is unbiblical. Is that what you are referring to?
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And with that, sticking with the topic of Pre-Trib vs Post-Trib (There are other things in End Time theology, but this thread is only focused on the topic of the rapture), I think the biggest reason that I think it is more biblical in going towards a Post-Tribulation view is because we need to remember when interpreting scripture, we cannot let presupposition or incorrect order of theological thought dominate our interpretation of scripture. As I look through the verse that are referring to a Pre-Trib rapture, I notice that if we check on the context of those verses as well as the parallels and cross references with those verse, they are inconsistent with a Pre-Trib view.

I think a lot of people have been focusing way too much in this thread on when Txgangsta said "you WANT to be left behind", which is why so many people afterwards said how what Tx said "doesn't make sense". (This is also a little bit of tx's fault for not saying it clearly). He is saying that the verses that talk about how one person is "left behind" while the other was "taken" (Matthew 24:40-41, see also Luke 17:34-35) is parallel with the Flood on the exact same chapter. He is saying that based on the context of this verse, "being taken" is viewed as judgment. So even if you are a Pre-Trib supporter, you CAN'T use this verse as support because it would take the verse itself out of context.

And when it comes to presuppositions, this IS important. Because you got to think back with how the audience of Jesus are when they heard what Jesus said, with Jesus using judgment language, they wouldn't think being "taken" to be a good thing. Seriously put yourself in the shoes of the Hebrew people during that time when they heard Jesus say those things, and reflect back to the history of the Israelites, and you would notice that "taken" was not seen to be a good thing based on their context. Jesus paralleled the Flood with the "taken" verse, but there are other parallels in the rest of scripture of how the lingo of something that is "left" means that are spared from judgment.

• Lot and the family were left from the Judgment of Sodom and Gimmorah
• The remnant that were left in their homeland during the exile of Babylon
• Jesus' parallel of the Wheat and the weeds, where the weeds were burned while the wheat were left alone

The one thing that disagree with txgangsta is when he says there are "no signs" that lead to End Times. While it is true that no one know the day or the hour, it doesn't mean that there are no signs showing the coming of the Lord. In Matthew 24, Jesus talks about the different characteristics of what it will be like leading up to the Second Coming as well as the "Abomination of Desolation." It is also important that Revelation, no matter how symbolic it is, still is trying to describe something about the End Times leading up to Christ's return, so to say that there are no signs is going more on the extreme side from "no one knows the day or the hour"

Eirinn : 
Again, txgangsta is not saying that he doesn't believe in a rapture. He doesn't believe in a pre-trib rapture, which is why the 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 still fits because he is saying that the "caught up" will happen after the tribulation with those who are still remaining and alive.

SoL@R : 1 Thessalonian 5:9 should be interpreted as salvation with God, not from the Tribulation, for the very next verse said that "He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him." (1 Thessalonian 5:10) So, it's specifically talking about salvation from sin, hell, and God's judgment.

I would also want to point out that when you referenced Revelation 3:10 about how it is "promised to be kept from the hour of testing", I think you may have placed your presuppositions onto the verse itself before interpreting it. Contextually, the surrounding verses were written only to the church of Philadelphia, which wouldn't make sense to say it is automatically saying all believers, or even all devoted believers, because the other criticized churches were not given this promise. The other "devoted" church, Smyrna (Rev. 2:8-11), that Jesus had "nothing" against them like Philadelphia, didn't receive the same promise either. In fact, they have been told that they WILL experience a tribulation soon. Something like this must be referring to a specific local incident.

Even without that, the way Revelation 3:10 is interpreted is not consistent to the theme of the rest of the Book as well as the word usage of that verse. While you are right that the word means "keep from", the definition of the word in the original Greek means "to guard" or "to take care" (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5083&t=KJV), but it doesn't mean "to take away." If you check the other verses that use the same word, they don't use the word to say that the thing that they are "keeping from" won't experience it. This makes more sense to the rest of the book, which continues to give theme of "hold fast" and "persevere." Jesus told all the 7 churches to keep in the faith even when tribulations and trials were happening to those specific churches. Remember, Jesus praised Philadelphia for their patience, while also telling Smyrna to be strong and persevering. It make sense to our Christian life as well, because we know God would preserve His Church of true followers through any tribulation, but it doesn't mean that we won't experience it in life.

So, you want to be careful in putting your presuppositions ahead of the verse before actually reading what it says and interpreting the verse. Revelation 3 is also my favorite chapter in showing how interpretation is more complete when understanding historical and cultural context of that time (the part of Jesus' message to Laodicea) and the rest of the Bible shouldn't be any different.

In addition, I would recommend these two short reads:

"WHO WILL BE LEFT BEHIND? RETHINKING THE MEANING OF MATTHEW 24:40-41 AND LUKE 17:34-35" (2010) by Benjamin Merkle in the Westminster Theological Journal

"Definitions and Observations Concerning the Second Coming of Christ" (1987) by John Piper, DesiringGod.com

 I have a problem with the logical progression of the events following the rapture, if you were correct and the non-believers were taken (I believe they won't) then who is persecuting the Christians on the earth? And why would God judge the Christians with the judgement in the following sections of Revelation? 

According to the Bible, look in Corinthians Chapter 15, Verse 52 States that the dead in Christ shall rise again. It talks about the Christians being caught up into heaven... Read the last section of the passage posted below:
 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15 Last section, (KJV)

darthyoda : That's not what he's saying. He's saying that the verses that people view in support for Pre-Trib rapture (Matthew 24:40-41) in context is talking about those that are in judgment, not those who are being saved, like what the Pre-Trib rapture is suggesting. He's saying that that verse is not talking about the rapture.

txgangsta believes that those who are caught up are believers, but that only happens when Jesus comes the second time. That's why txgangsta said in the ending paragraph: "The righteous will be "caught up" as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians, but there is nothing secret about it (booming voice of an angel, and Jesus descending from heaven) and it is synonymous with the Resurrection. The dead receive resurrected bodies, and those still alive are also changed. The resurrection is the entire reason for Jesus' death, and it is ONLY in resurrection that reconciliation of creature and Creator is complete."

1 Corinthians 15:52 also is aligned with what txgangsta said, because he believes that Christians will be caught up into heaven. He is saying that it happens after the Tribulation, when the trumpets sound, and when Jesus comes the second time. This actually would make sense as well since if you say that rapture happens before the tribulation using this verse, you are saying that Jesus came back the second and the third time.

play4fun : The first coming of Christ is when he came in the physical form to die for our sins, the second is after the rapture, but the Christians will NOT be present during the Tribulation. (As in if the Lord came to call up his people right now there would be no Christians until someone got saved post-Rapture.) But when Jesus comes to call his own into heaven, he doesn't come down. He merely waits for us to meet him. the rapture is pre-Trib. As the book of Revelation is written in order of front to back, like a story in a novel. There isn't a jumping around in the story. When Christ Jesus waits for us to come up to him, it is before the tribulation, and he doesn't actually descend. 

But the Matthew 24 passage isn't talking about the Rapture, it is talking about a different judgement. (I'll talk to my Dad, for those of you who don't know he is a pastor.) As I understand the passage, it is talking about the judgement of the unbelievers, but not during the Tribulation. 

If you can show me in Revelation that post-Tribulation is viable, I would like to know so, but I have studied the book. I have found no reason to believe that God would want to judge his own people. Not with what is mentioned in Revelation.

darthyoda: I think you are suppose to show how it is Pre-Tribulation, because what is being said here is that scripturally, to interpret the rapture to be Pre-Tribulation from those support verses would be taken out of context from the verses themselves and the literal reading for the description of the caught up would be that it would happen when the Son of Man comes. Jesus described a specific type of tribulation, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. " (Matt. 24:21) and then described what happens after that tribulation (Matt 24:29), when the sign of the Son of Man appears, the nations mourn, and the appearing of the Son of Man, in which He "sends out an angel with a trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt 24:31) This is after what Jesus says to be a "great tribulation." This also fits the description with the verses that the rapture is mainly described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and the verse that you mentioned, 1 Corinthians 15:52, as both verses talk about the command of a trumpet (Both Thess. and Corint), and the dead will be raised imperishable (Corin.), which the dead will be raised first (Thess.), and those who are alive, who are left, will be caught up to meet Him. (Thess.). So if I were to get rid of all the presuppositions of a Pre-Trib view onto these verse (which in previous posts explained why it is not biblical to have those presuppositions there in the first place), the literal reading of the description of the rapture is indicating to happen when Jesus appears to the world a second time. 



You are right that Matt 24:40-41 is talking about a different judgment. That is one of the main points of this thread that people can't use that verse to explain the rapture. 


What I am saying is that from being originally in a Pre-Trib background to just sticking with that belief due to not caring about the detail as much (as described in my background), after reading through these verses again and looking into the arguments again, I can no longer say that Pre-Tribulation is described in scripture, and that my previous beliefs without looking into these passages a lot deeper were wrong. I can agree with SoL@R that disagreements in this is not a salvation-breaking belief, but I think it also brings believers in thinking that when tribulation hits, that they would escape tribulation, when all throughout scripture, the main theme is perseverance from tribulation as long as we still live in this fallen world. Paul even went as far as to tell the church of Thessalonia that they are destined to experience their tribulations and not to be moved by them (1 Thess. 3:3-4)


Also, I don't know how you can bring the topic of the Pre-Tribulation rapture from Revelation, since that is not even the book where the description of the rapture appears to be (which is also true for those who posted on the thread)

play4fun : I've always believed in post-trib, as it's the only view I can see in the Bible, and there are no verses that actually speak against such a view.

Tx, if this is what you meant then I do apologize for the misunderstanding. I agree with post-trib teachings, and always have.

EDIT: I also missed the comment about the "Rapture" or whatever you want to call it not being a secret. The teaching that people will just disappear is entirely unbiblical and hasn't even a single verse to try and stand on. The Bible says that every eye shall see Him. A quick reading of any scriptures about His return for His people will reveal that it will be an event that the entire world will see.

darthyoda : Failed summon.

Eirinn :

I am post-post-post tribulation, I guess. When we are "caught up with the Lord in the clouds" is after Resurrection, which is the Last Day. I'm thinking being "caught up with the Lord" is the same event as "separation of goats and lambs".

Also, I don't know how literal I want to take that passage. Paul may be just using poetic language, and we're not really flying around, but Paul is simply giving a metaphor to how awesome post-Resurrection will be. I'm not sure. It doesn't really matter either way, since I'm ok with flying in the clouds as well as post-Resurrection being awesome. =)

play4fun :

You're great =)

I haven't studied this topic much, but I don't believe that the "rapture" (if you mean that the Christians" Will be taken up into Heaven before All this bad stuff is going to happen) is actually going to happen.

Oh yeah, I do believe that after the fact that we may get caught up in the clouds. . .


But then we have the New Heaven and the New Earth + 1,000 year reign of Christ, which will take place on this planet. I may wish to check this thread out when I get home tonight.

I would agree with Txgangsta's last post here.