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Man made in God's image

 

02-24-14 07:24 AM
warmaker is Offline
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I have been actively participating in the Ham vs. Nye thread and I've been putting time in thinking about it.  It's been fun to see the different opinions and the courteous conversation.  Everyone has done well to behave themselves.

Here's my question that came from reading and rereading that forum.

One member pointed out comparing a man to an animal doesn't work because we're much more.  We are made in God's image and animals just wander around and do animal things.

If we were made in God's own image, why do we have the ability to kill, rape, torture, burn, destroy, fight wars, and so on?  God is perfect and we should be perfect along if we were made like him, right?

I understand the snake and the apple and so on but why were humans given the opportunity to do such terrible things to the world,, to other animals, and to ourselves?  How does giving us the option serve God?
I have been actively participating in the Ham vs. Nye thread and I've been putting time in thinking about it.  It's been fun to see the different opinions and the courteous conversation.  Everyone has done well to behave themselves.

Here's my question that came from reading and rereading that forum.

One member pointed out comparing a man to an animal doesn't work because we're much more.  We are made in God's image and animals just wander around and do animal things.

If we were made in God's own image, why do we have the ability to kill, rape, torture, burn, destroy, fight wars, and so on?  God is perfect and we should be perfect along if we were made like him, right?

I understand the snake and the apple and so on but why were humans given the opportunity to do such terrible things to the world,, to other animals, and to ourselves?  How does giving us the option serve God?
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02-24-14 11:00 AM
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warmaker:

Imagine that I have set a game before you, the game is called.

Red block.

The objective of this game is to stack 4 red blocks on top of each other.
You eagerly unwrap 40$ game and place it in your SNES. it makes that satisfying
clutch sound as the the cartirdge and the console become one in a union that some say is even greater than marriage.

     You lean over and press the button on your SNES- that bleak splash of colors flash over the screen as the SNES does it's routine start up.
white letter's come into focus on screen in that unmistakable pixelated fashion.

     - Sword legion presents -

      Red Block.

The game fades away into a Tetris like menu, But for some reason it's playing the song unknown of me. You see the beautiful and inviting little white words appear at the bottom, more toward the center of the screen flash, calling your attention.


- press start! -


You oblige and get ready for another fun- exhilarating block dropping game. As you press start, you are taken to a blue screen, mostly covered by a black textbox with the following instructions written in white:


     Welcome to Red Block (c) We hope that you throughly enjoy this little game that we put together, this game has been built so that you never quite enjoying it, as the perfect game! You never have to worry about anything while playing this game, you just play and have fun, and you never l-


Huh?


weird, the text stops there.

Oh well, let's get to this game already. Who cares what that was saying anyways? I just want to play the game!



Another instrucion box appears:

How to play the game:

Line up four red block to beat the level!


     A Tetris screen appears in front of you. You can see that you are already moving one red block down to the bottom. In the "next" box, you can see that you're next block will be another red block.

"Allright, let's get this started! I never thought that I would get to play Tetris with one block before, well, let's see how it pans out!"


the red block falls.

You cannot move the red block left or right.


The red block hits the ground.


The next red block appears at the top of the screen.

it's falling. . .

and falling. . .

and falling. . .

and falling. . .

Hey. . .

it landed on top of the other red block. . .

You look down at your controller, what's wrong with it? didn't you move the block to right? Maybe I should retstart with a differet controller, is this one broken?

You press pause.

the game pauses.


"Well, maybe it's not broken. . . "


The next read block appears.

It falls, but as it does you hold down heavily on the right of the D- pad of your SNES controller.

Hey! it won't move!

It falls. . .

and falls. . .

and falls. . .

and falls. . .

and falls. . .

and falls. . .

on the other two red blocks. . .


A new text box appears on screen:


You're doing great! keep it up, you only have one more red block to go!


"Okay, what's going on here!?" you demand to know, but you're screen doesn't grant any answer, all it does is make another red block spawn at the top of the screen.

There it is.

The last red block.

You are determined to make that block move left, right. . . something!!!!!!


It begins to fall.


You M A S H on the right D- pad with your finger like a jack hammer! You sweat heavily as you slowly tip your head down in frustration and determination- physically exerting your self. THIS BLOCK WILL MOVE RIGHT! When you finally look up at the screen, the result was all to predictable. A new textbox appears on screen.


"Congratulations, you have won the game, I hope you have had fun playing, and remember, you can never lose! "



Did you enjoy that game?

No,

Why not? 

Because there was no reward in winning, and you had no freedom.

That's the thing, you cannot make a world that has joy, without the possibility to have suffering. Or else the joy has no value. 

You cannot make a world that has light, without the possibility for it to not have light. You can't have heat, without the possibility to have cold- which is the absence of heat. 

This is not a spam post, this post was submitted before I could finish it because my mom wanted me to do something quick!


warmaker:

Imagine that I have set a game before you, the game is called.

Red block.

The objective of this game is to stack 4 red blocks on top of each other.
You eagerly unwrap 40$ game and place it in your SNES. it makes that satisfying
clutch sound as the the cartirdge and the console become one in a union that some say is even greater than marriage.

     You lean over and press the button on your SNES- that bleak splash of colors flash over the screen as the SNES does it's routine start up.
white letter's come into focus on screen in that unmistakable pixelated fashion.

     - Sword legion presents -

      Red Block.

The game fades away into a Tetris like menu, But for some reason it's playing the song unknown of me. You see the beautiful and inviting little white words appear at the bottom, more toward the center of the screen flash, calling your attention.


- press start! -


You oblige and get ready for another fun- exhilarating block dropping game. As you press start, you are taken to a blue screen, mostly covered by a black textbox with the following instructions written in white:


     Welcome to Red Block (c) We hope that you throughly enjoy this little game that we put together, this game has been built so that you never quite enjoying it, as the perfect game! You never have to worry about anything while playing this game, you just play and have fun, and you never l-


Huh?


weird, the text stops there.

Oh well, let's get to this game already. Who cares what that was saying anyways? I just want to play the game!



Another instrucion box appears:

How to play the game:

Line up four red block to beat the level!


     A Tetris screen appears in front of you. You can see that you are already moving one red block down to the bottom. In the "next" box, you can see that you're next block will be another red block.

"Allright, let's get this started! I never thought that I would get to play Tetris with one block before, well, let's see how it pans out!"


the red block falls.

You cannot move the red block left or right.


The red block hits the ground.


The next red block appears at the top of the screen.

it's falling. . .

and falling. . .

and falling. . .

and falling. . .

Hey. . .

it landed on top of the other red block. . .

You look down at your controller, what's wrong with it? didn't you move the block to right? Maybe I should retstart with a differet controller, is this one broken?

You press pause.

the game pauses.


"Well, maybe it's not broken. . . "


The next read block appears.

It falls, but as it does you hold down heavily on the right of the D- pad of your SNES controller.

Hey! it won't move!

It falls. . .

and falls. . .

and falls. . .

and falls. . .

and falls. . .

and falls. . .

on the other two red blocks. . .


A new text box appears on screen:


You're doing great! keep it up, you only have one more red block to go!


"Okay, what's going on here!?" you demand to know, but you're screen doesn't grant any answer, all it does is make another red block spawn at the top of the screen.

There it is.

The last red block.

You are determined to make that block move left, right. . . something!!!!!!


It begins to fall.


You M A S H on the right D- pad with your finger like a jack hammer! You sweat heavily as you slowly tip your head down in frustration and determination- physically exerting your self. THIS BLOCK WILL MOVE RIGHT! When you finally look up at the screen, the result was all to predictable. A new textbox appears on screen.


"Congratulations, you have won the game, I hope you have had fun playing, and remember, you can never lose! "



Did you enjoy that game?

No,

Why not? 

Because there was no reward in winning, and you had no freedom.

That's the thing, you cannot make a world that has joy, without the possibility to have suffering. Or else the joy has no value. 

You cannot make a world that has light, without the possibility for it to not have light. You can't have heat, without the possibility to have cold- which is the absence of heat. 

This is not a spam post, this post was submitted before I could finish it because my mom wanted me to do something quick!


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(edited by Sword legion on 02-24-14 07:06 PM)    

02-24-14 11:08 AM
tornadocam is Offline
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When God created humans (Adam and Eve) we were sinless. Then came the fall of man. Instead of being perfect human beings we had evil desires as a result of the fall. The first act of murder is were Cain killed Able out of rage. Read on in the bible and humans kept doing horrible things. When Adam and Eve sinned not only did they sin against themselves and God, but they brought Sin upon everybody. It also allowed Satan to use people to do horrible acts such as murder and rape. God decides to give man a shot at redemption by becoming a man (the Son Jesus Christ) to die for our sins. Those that repent and live by his Word are saved. However due to what I mentioned above sin still pollutes the World. God did not create this evil desires that was never his intention, but humans screwed things up. 
When God created humans (Adam and Eve) we were sinless. Then came the fall of man. Instead of being perfect human beings we had evil desires as a result of the fall. The first act of murder is were Cain killed Able out of rage. Read on in the bible and humans kept doing horrible things. When Adam and Eve sinned not only did they sin against themselves and God, but they brought Sin upon everybody. It also allowed Satan to use people to do horrible acts such as murder and rape. God decides to give man a shot at redemption by becoming a man (the Son Jesus Christ) to die for our sins. Those that repent and live by his Word are saved. However due to what I mentioned above sin still pollutes the World. God did not create this evil desires that was never his intention, but humans screwed things up. 
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02-24-14 11:31 AM
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tornadocam : But if God created everything, doesn't that mean he created evil desires. For that matter, isn't evil itself a creation of God? Without God, there would be nothing, Satan included. And if that was not his intention, doesn't that imply that God is not all knowing after all? If he is all knowing, then isn't everything that happens intended?

tornadocam : But if God created everything, doesn't that mean he created evil desires. For that matter, isn't evil itself a creation of God? Without God, there would be nothing, Satan included. And if that was not his intention, doesn't that imply that God is not all knowing after all? If he is all knowing, then isn't everything that happens intended?

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02-24-14 11:37 AM
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The Devil used to be an Angel but he wanted power. He fought in heaven and God banished him  and his angels to the earth were he became the devil and they were thrown into the world of fire. The devil in revengewanted to ruin man. So it was the devil who created evil desires. Not God. For God did not create evil desires but yet they (humans) rebelled against God they gave into evil desires of the evil one. 
The Devil used to be an Angel but he wanted power. He fought in heaven and God banished him  and his angels to the earth were he became the devil and they were thrown into the world of fire. The devil in revengewanted to ruin man. So it was the devil who created evil desires. Not God. For God did not create evil desires but yet they (humans) rebelled against God they gave into evil desires of the evil one. 
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02-24-14 07:18 PM
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rcarter2 :

God only know the present, not the future, if he knew the future, then free will couldn't exist. Time is man made and doesn't exist. Evil is using good things in the wrong way. Like making a hand into a fist (which isn't evil by the way.) and using it to punch an innocent. I believe that if God made a safe world, it would have ended up a lot less complicated, and would hardly be worth creating. God cannot make contradictions. To not make cold for example, there would be no heat as well. To not make good, there would be no evil.

Without good an evil, we are no longer people, but animals with no morality. Adam and Eve were created in the absense of evil, but Satan brought them into it.

And no, I do not believe that we are all born with sin inside of us, I believe that we are born into a sin filled world that is nothing like the garden of Eden and certainly nothing like the preflood world.


My mechanical version of the creation story:

In the beginning, there was a will, and the will was one, and the will was all and all was the will. The will desired the company of other wills, so he made them a place that they may live, so the one will made all the others. The man and his wife. That he may have countenance with them.
Christianity is not a religion- it is a personal realationship with God. And that's all there is to it.
rcarter2 :

God only know the present, not the future, if he knew the future, then free will couldn't exist. Time is man made and doesn't exist. Evil is using good things in the wrong way. Like making a hand into a fist (which isn't evil by the way.) and using it to punch an innocent. I believe that if God made a safe world, it would have ended up a lot less complicated, and would hardly be worth creating. God cannot make contradictions. To not make cold for example, there would be no heat as well. To not make good, there would be no evil.

Without good an evil, we are no longer people, but animals with no morality. Adam and Eve were created in the absense of evil, but Satan brought them into it.

And no, I do not believe that we are all born with sin inside of us, I believe that we are born into a sin filled world that is nothing like the garden of Eden and certainly nothing like the preflood world.


My mechanical version of the creation story:

In the beginning, there was a will, and the will was one, and the will was all and all was the will. The will desired the company of other wills, so he made them a place that they may live, so the one will made all the others. The man and his wife. That he may have countenance with them.
Christianity is not a religion- it is a personal realationship with God. And that's all there is to it.
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02-25-14 11:51 AM
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Sword legion : If God isn't all knowing, then how did he know that Judas would betray Jesus? How did he know that Peter would deny Jesus 3 times? That is pretty specific information. Is that not knowing the future? In that case, did Peter sin when he had no control over his action in denying Christ 3 times?
Sword legion : If God isn't all knowing, then how did he know that Judas would betray Jesus? How did he know that Peter would deny Jesus 3 times? That is pretty specific information. Is that not knowing the future? In that case, did Peter sin when he had no control over his action in denying Christ 3 times?
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02-25-14 11:57 AM
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Sword legion : Like what we have discussed before, your theology on this has a bad neglect of scripture and it is not biblical in any way. rcarter actually one good example of why that understanding of God is not biblical.
Sword legion : Like what we have discussed before, your theology on this has a bad neglect of scripture and it is not biblical in any way. rcarter actually one good example of why that understanding of God is not biblical.
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02-25-14 03:27 PM
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play4fun:

Like what we have discussed before, your theology on this has a bad neglect of scripture and it is not biblical in any way. 

I would recommend not making your posts so insulting and that you actually back them up.
If you want to finish what you started you're welcome to right here. I'm not upset with you, but I don't appreciate the general way you've choosen to approach our differences.


rcarter2:

"If God isn't all knowing, then how did he know that Judas would betray Jesus?"

Judas was repossessed by either God for this propose, or by Satan. This may also be like the situation, where, let's just say, I tell my brother, 

I knew that you would work on you Boss NPC for your Cave Story mod.
I'm saying that I know, but do I know for sure? No. The future is always in motion. 

If you believe that God knows everything, you have way more "contradictions" to deal with, like God constantly saying "if" in the Bible constantly.


"How did he know that Peter would deny Jesus 3 times?"

That was just Yeshua, (Jesus) saying, "oh yeah? you think that you can go without betraying me? okay, boys, your on!"

"In that case, did Peter sin when he had no control over his action in denying Christ 3 times?"

Biblically? I doubt it as Peter did "sin" there, God did, if he took control of him and made him do it. Or, some people believe that God can do whatever he wants and still be righteous. But hey other religions say the same thing about their Gods. How could a truthful God lie through Peter?

How about the Book of Jonah were Jonah says in Ninevah "surely, unless these people repent, this city will come to ruins" Wait, unless? There are many different kinds of prophesies in the Bible, many are warnings that can be averted. For some, things are already set in motion and may be impossible to avert, in which case you had better get out of Sodom- fast! Prophesy is seldom a good thing, it usually means that God is getting ready to judge people if they do not repent.

Believing that God controls
all our actions is, no offense to anyone, ignorant of free will which is universally observed.

"Choose ye this day whom ye will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."
play4fun:

Like what we have discussed before, your theology on this has a bad neglect of scripture and it is not biblical in any way. 

I would recommend not making your posts so insulting and that you actually back them up.
If you want to finish what you started you're welcome to right here. I'm not upset with you, but I don't appreciate the general way you've choosen to approach our differences.


rcarter2:

"If God isn't all knowing, then how did he know that Judas would betray Jesus?"

Judas was repossessed by either God for this propose, or by Satan. This may also be like the situation, where, let's just say, I tell my brother, 

I knew that you would work on you Boss NPC for your Cave Story mod.
I'm saying that I know, but do I know for sure? No. The future is always in motion. 

If you believe that God knows everything, you have way more "contradictions" to deal with, like God constantly saying "if" in the Bible constantly.


"How did he know that Peter would deny Jesus 3 times?"

That was just Yeshua, (Jesus) saying, "oh yeah? you think that you can go without betraying me? okay, boys, your on!"

"In that case, did Peter sin when he had no control over his action in denying Christ 3 times?"

Biblically? I doubt it as Peter did "sin" there, God did, if he took control of him and made him do it. Or, some people believe that God can do whatever he wants and still be righteous. But hey other religions say the same thing about their Gods. How could a truthful God lie through Peter?

How about the Book of Jonah were Jonah says in Ninevah "surely, unless these people repent, this city will come to ruins" Wait, unless? There are many different kinds of prophesies in the Bible, many are warnings that can be averted. For some, things are already set in motion and may be impossible to avert, in which case you had better get out of Sodom- fast! Prophesy is seldom a good thing, it usually means that God is getting ready to judge people if they do not repent.

Believing that God controls
all our actions is, no offense to anyone, ignorant of free will which is universally observed.

"Choose ye this day whom ye will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."
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02-25-14 04:03 PM
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Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, yet he had him with him all along. Besides, if he had not, what would have happened then? Jesus would have lived happily ever after and died for our sins in a more pleasant way? If he was inspired by Satan, would that not mean also that Satan is part of Gods great plan too and in fact, gods minion like he seems to be in the book of Job?
Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, yet he had him with him all along. Besides, if he had not, what would have happened then? Jesus would have lived happily ever after and died for our sins in a more pleasant way? If he was inspired by Satan, would that not mean also that Satan is part of Gods great plan too and in fact, gods minion like he seems to be in the book of Job?
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02-25-14 07:21 PM
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Sword legion: I did back them up--from the last time we discussed about this in a different thread, yet at that time, you have neglected to actually respond to the abundance of scriptural support that the Bible specifically writes that God knows the future. I have told you before that that is not how you form correct theology if you ignore scripture support...a lot of scriptural support, and just pick on a few verses that seem to support your view, when looking deeper, it doesn't.

Your responses to rcarter are exactly what I have a problem with some of your explanations. They are not reasonable and they don't seek out scripture to gain support, but a lot of "maybe" talk and speculations when scripture doesn't say these things.

"That was just Yeshua, (Jesus) saying, "oh yeah? you think that you can go without betraying me? okay, boys, your on!""

Umm citation needed...because the actual quote is the following: "Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.” (Luke 22:34; also see Matt 26:34, Mark 14:30, John 13:38) (emphasis added) If you check other translations, you would notice that Jesus said "truly I say to you" or "truly truly", and "verily verily". If you've studied this phrasing by Jesus, you would know that whenever He says that, it is to emphasize that it is true and that it will happen. Nowhere does it say that Jesus was saying it the way you described it. You were speculating it.

"How about the Book of Jonah were Jonah says in Ninevah "surely, unless these people repent, this city will come to ruins" 

Check your citation again. Jonah never said that. All Jonah proclaimed was “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” (Jonah 3:4) and yet Jonah knew that God was just bringing this message to them as warning, that because Nineveh will repent after hearing this warning, God won't send the judgment. Compare that statement to other fulfilled prophesies of judgments on nations. There was no specific description on how Nineveh should be destroyed. All it said is that Nineveh will be overthrown. God even gave them 40 days. That in itself is giving grace to the Ninevites. God does provide extra time to show grace to people (The entire history of the Kingdom of Judah) This is what Jonah said: "Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." (Jonah 4:2) These types of prophecies are written as conditional so that they are warned previously on this, and that it happened because the people did exactly what the prophesy said would happen if they did it. Do these mean that God doesn't know? Of course not. God gave them a forewarning about it beforehand so that they have no excuse in saying that they didn't know it was coming. In fact, you might say that God said these things because God knew what was coming, and that He gives a reason as to why it happens. (An example is when God told Solomon that his nation will prosper if they are obedient, and they will face judgment if they stray. There is no need to say all this if it will never happen, which behold, the entire nation of Israel is full of evil kings that fell because of their evilness)

Now, compare the small statement (Jonah 3:4) to the entire book of Nahum, in which God foretold the destruction of Nineveh, full of detail, full of inevitability, and guess what? It happened, along with the fall of Assyria.

"Believing that God controls all our actions is, no offense to anyone, ignorant of free will which is universally observed."

Except, God knowing all things doesn't get rid of free will. That is a false dilemma in theology, especially when you see both free will and God's omniscience in scripture, and Christians affirm to both.

I have no problem with talking through this topic, but when someone actually ignores the evidence provided by either making up possibilities with no basis or just continually put more weight on their own view of what makes sense instead of putting weight in what is said in scripture, the arguments will come out to be faulty and dishonest. It is like how scripture says "casting pearls to swine" and it gets really frustrating.

"Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’" (Isaiah 46:9-10)
Sword legion: I did back them up--from the last time we discussed about this in a different thread, yet at that time, you have neglected to actually respond to the abundance of scriptural support that the Bible specifically writes that God knows the future. I have told you before that that is not how you form correct theology if you ignore scripture support...a lot of scriptural support, and just pick on a few verses that seem to support your view, when looking deeper, it doesn't.

Your responses to rcarter are exactly what I have a problem with some of your explanations. They are not reasonable and they don't seek out scripture to gain support, but a lot of "maybe" talk and speculations when scripture doesn't say these things.

"That was just Yeshua, (Jesus) saying, "oh yeah? you think that you can go without betraying me? okay, boys, your on!""

Umm citation needed...because the actual quote is the following: "Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.” (Luke 22:34; also see Matt 26:34, Mark 14:30, John 13:38) (emphasis added) If you check other translations, you would notice that Jesus said "truly I say to you" or "truly truly", and "verily verily". If you've studied this phrasing by Jesus, you would know that whenever He says that, it is to emphasize that it is true and that it will happen. Nowhere does it say that Jesus was saying it the way you described it. You were speculating it.

"How about the Book of Jonah were Jonah says in Ninevah "surely, unless these people repent, this city will come to ruins" 

Check your citation again. Jonah never said that. All Jonah proclaimed was “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” (Jonah 3:4) and yet Jonah knew that God was just bringing this message to them as warning, that because Nineveh will repent after hearing this warning, God won't send the judgment. Compare that statement to other fulfilled prophesies of judgments on nations. There was no specific description on how Nineveh should be destroyed. All it said is that Nineveh will be overthrown. God even gave them 40 days. That in itself is giving grace to the Ninevites. God does provide extra time to show grace to people (The entire history of the Kingdom of Judah) This is what Jonah said: "Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." (Jonah 4:2) These types of prophecies are written as conditional so that they are warned previously on this, and that it happened because the people did exactly what the prophesy said would happen if they did it. Do these mean that God doesn't know? Of course not. God gave them a forewarning about it beforehand so that they have no excuse in saying that they didn't know it was coming. In fact, you might say that God said these things because God knew what was coming, and that He gives a reason as to why it happens. (An example is when God told Solomon that his nation will prosper if they are obedient, and they will face judgment if they stray. There is no need to say all this if it will never happen, which behold, the entire nation of Israel is full of evil kings that fell because of their evilness)

Now, compare the small statement (Jonah 3:4) to the entire book of Nahum, in which God foretold the destruction of Nineveh, full of detail, full of inevitability, and guess what? It happened, along with the fall of Assyria.

"Believing that God controls all our actions is, no offense to anyone, ignorant of free will which is universally observed."

Except, God knowing all things doesn't get rid of free will. That is a false dilemma in theology, especially when you see both free will and God's omniscience in scripture, and Christians affirm to both.

I have no problem with talking through this topic, but when someone actually ignores the evidence provided by either making up possibilities with no basis or just continually put more weight on their own view of what makes sense instead of putting weight in what is said in scripture, the arguments will come out to be faulty and dishonest. It is like how scripture says "casting pearls to swine" and it gets really frustrating.

"Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’" (Isaiah 46:9-10)
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play4fun:

"Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

I could still say the same thing to my brother as a challenge.

"Nowhere does it say that Jesus was saying it the way you described it. You were speculating it."

But you were speculating it to.


Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

Definition of the word yet

b: continuously up to the present or a specified time :still

c: at a future time :eventually


So, in forty days, the city will be overthrown. It Didn't happen.

and check this out, these are synonyms of the word yet.

neverthelesshowever


"Now, compare the small statement (Jonah 3:4) to the entire book of Nahum, in which God foretold the destruction of Nineveh, full of detail, full of inevitability, and guess what? It happened, along with the fall of Assyria."

But it did not happen within 40 days of the Jonah's original warning.

So, is the original verse asserting that judgement will happen in 40 days, in which it was wrong, or is it saying that unless/only if you repent will these things come to pass.


What did you say earlier?

"just pick on a few verses that seem to support your view, when looking deeper, it doesn't."

That's what you just did with Jonah.


"if you ignore scripture support...a lot of scriptural support, and just pick on a few verses that seem to support your view, when looking deeper, it doesn't."

This is not the same debate as last time, you don't know what I have up my sleeve and have been studying. Also, I am not the one trying to assert the existence of something here, so I get to play defense. If you want to suggest that something exists, that being God's knowledge of the future to whatever degree you wish to prove. You have to bring support for it. It's not my job to debunk an idea, but you job to support it first, or it falls.


"Except, God knowing all things doesn't get rid of free will. That is a false dilemma in theology, especially when you see both free will and God's omniscience in scripture, and Christians affirm to both."

On no, play4fun. asserted that Bible says this without backing it up, so it must be true. I must be a heretic.

Exactly why I hate having the title of Christianity. Cause I get grouped with illogical ideas like free will and God knowing the future absolutely. Does anyone go down the trail of logic long enough to see why this is a contradiction?

1 This means that God knew all of the evils that would happen when He created you.

2 He's the only one who can stop it, you can't, you're a train on it's tracks doomed to go straight ahead. Free will at this point is some sort of independent mechanic, that is no different from a complicated marble contraption or robot. in the end, it will do what it was doomed to do.

3 God is evil for setting things up by making robots with false "free will" and setting them up to kill other robots. and then set up the other robots to hunt them down. placing the blame on the robot that he set up to kill the other robots that he also set up to do whatever. But hey, after all He's God, He can do whatever He wants to anyone. Just like Allah I think. . . no offense to anyone but still. . . :/


4 Free will is no different from any other mechanical thing in the universe.

I do not see how both absolute knowledge of the future and free will can exist logically.



"I have no problem with talking through this topic, but when someone actually ignores the evidence provided by either making up possibilities with no basis or just continually put more weight on their own view of what makes sense instead of putting weight in what is said in scripture, the arguments will come out to be faulty and dishonest. It is like how scripture says "casting pearls to swine" and it gets really frustrating."

Thanks for using that verse about the swine. I really appreciate it. I could say the same thing to you, minus the swine part maybe?
play4fun:

"Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

I could still say the same thing to my brother as a challenge.

"Nowhere does it say that Jesus was saying it the way you described it. You were speculating it."

But you were speculating it to.


Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

Definition of the word yet

b: continuously up to the present or a specified time :still

c: at a future time :eventually


So, in forty days, the city will be overthrown. It Didn't happen.

and check this out, these are synonyms of the word yet.

neverthelesshowever


"Now, compare the small statement (Jonah 3:4) to the entire book of Nahum, in which God foretold the destruction of Nineveh, full of detail, full of inevitability, and guess what? It happened, along with the fall of Assyria."

But it did not happen within 40 days of the Jonah's original warning.

So, is the original verse asserting that judgement will happen in 40 days, in which it was wrong, or is it saying that unless/only if you repent will these things come to pass.


What did you say earlier?

"just pick on a few verses that seem to support your view, when looking deeper, it doesn't."

That's what you just did with Jonah.


"if you ignore scripture support...a lot of scriptural support, and just pick on a few verses that seem to support your view, when looking deeper, it doesn't."

This is not the same debate as last time, you don't know what I have up my sleeve and have been studying. Also, I am not the one trying to assert the existence of something here, so I get to play defense. If you want to suggest that something exists, that being God's knowledge of the future to whatever degree you wish to prove. You have to bring support for it. It's not my job to debunk an idea, but you job to support it first, or it falls.


"Except, God knowing all things doesn't get rid of free will. That is a false dilemma in theology, especially when you see both free will and God's omniscience in scripture, and Christians affirm to both."

On no, play4fun. asserted that Bible says this without backing it up, so it must be true. I must be a heretic.

Exactly why I hate having the title of Christianity. Cause I get grouped with illogical ideas like free will and God knowing the future absolutely. Does anyone go down the trail of logic long enough to see why this is a contradiction?

1 This means that God knew all of the evils that would happen when He created you.

2 He's the only one who can stop it, you can't, you're a train on it's tracks doomed to go straight ahead. Free will at this point is some sort of independent mechanic, that is no different from a complicated marble contraption or robot. in the end, it will do what it was doomed to do.

3 God is evil for setting things up by making robots with false "free will" and setting them up to kill other robots. and then set up the other robots to hunt them down. placing the blame on the robot that he set up to kill the other robots that he also set up to do whatever. But hey, after all He's God, He can do whatever He wants to anyone. Just like Allah I think. . . no offense to anyone but still. . . :/


4 Free will is no different from any other mechanical thing in the universe.

I do not see how both absolute knowledge of the future and free will can exist logically.



"I have no problem with talking through this topic, but when someone actually ignores the evidence provided by either making up possibilities with no basis or just continually put more weight on their own view of what makes sense instead of putting weight in what is said in scripture, the arguments will come out to be faulty and dishonest. It is like how scripture says "casting pearls to swine" and it gets really frustrating."

Thanks for using that verse about the swine. I really appreciate it. I could say the same thing to you, minus the swine part maybe?
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(edited by Sword legion on 02-26-14 09:49 AM)    

02-26-14 11:54 AM
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play4fun : legion responded, but didn't properly summon you. I have been noticing that he has been doing that a lot more in debate threads. No problem summoning people to any other threads, but the debate threads always seem to 'fail summon'. So I am doing it for him.
play4fun : legion responded, but didn't properly summon you. I have been noticing that he has been doing that a lot more in debate threads. No problem summoning people to any other threads, but the debate threads always seem to 'fail summon'. So I am doing it for him.
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(edited by rcarter2 on 02-26-14 04:47 PM)    

02-27-14 08:34 PM
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rcarter2 : Thanks, rcarter. I'm going to respond in a new thread because this is definitely falling off topic and I want to get back to the topic at hand. I'll get to responding by this weekend when spring break starts.

warmaker : In answering your question, when God created the world, He said it was good. When it said that we are created in God's Image (Imago Dei), it means that we are created in God's likeness, or having the characteristics and attributes that are apparent in God, but not eternal and with limitations, like intelligence, creativity, relationship, etc. So it's a good thing and God glorifying that God creates us. Just like any person or anything, they can be used for evil purposes, but like in the, they are meant for good purposes. When sin happened, it was more than just separating God and people, it corrupts people and all of creation.
rcarter2 : Thanks, rcarter. I'm going to respond in a new thread because this is definitely falling off topic and I want to get back to the topic at hand. I'll get to responding by this weekend when spring break starts.

warmaker : In answering your question, when God created the world, He said it was good. When it said that we are created in God's Image (Imago Dei), it means that we are created in God's likeness, or having the characteristics and attributes that are apparent in God, but not eternal and with limitations, like intelligence, creativity, relationship, etc. So it's a good thing and God glorifying that God creates us. Just like any person or anything, they can be used for evil purposes, but like in the, they are meant for good purposes. When sin happened, it was more than just separating God and people, it corrupts people and all of creation.
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