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Continued Conversation between Me and RetroSteve about Christ and God
01-26-13 02:20 AM
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There was an ongoing conversation that me and RetroSteve had about the Trinity, which was kinda/sorta/technically related to the original thread itself, but we were getting further and further away from the actual topic. The conversation started here: https://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=48364&ppp=100&page=0#726494
Not wanting to totally dominate the conversation of that thread, as well as the fact that RetroSteve was considering to start a thread to continue, I decided to continue our conversation on this new thread so that we won't lose our train of thought. I do find it important to discuss about this because this topic is about God and who Jesus is (Christology), and understanding these things affects the foundation of Christian beliefs as well the way we act as Christians. RetroSteve : In reply to what you previously responded: But they were translated like that because of the context. We know that there are different meanings for some words in Greek and Hebrew, that's why scholars use the context to pick the right meaning to the sentence. I specifically posted the KJV version of the text since it was the version that you prefer, but if you look at every single version, none of them translated the verse using strength or might It makes absolutely no sense to translate them as "And he said, I [am] strength/might, the God of thy father:" or "And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty strength/might, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." It makes absolutely no sense. The Jewish community would not even translate it like that. You also need to look at other verses that were written similarly. For example: The phrase "Mighty God" was found in the next chapter: "The remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God" (Isaiah 10:21) Same two Hebrew words and this is actually talking about God, specifically about the remnant will return to God. Finally, considering the fact that this word is translated as God 213 times, compared to might (once) and power (four times). It based off of how the context dictates the meaning of scripture. If you want to start off with a different point, feel free to start one. Anyone else who wants to join in the conversation, reply to either me or RetroSteve's posts. Not wanting to totally dominate the conversation of that thread, as well as the fact that RetroSteve was considering to start a thread to continue, I decided to continue our conversation on this new thread so that we won't lose our train of thought. I do find it important to discuss about this because this topic is about God and who Jesus is (Christology), and understanding these things affects the foundation of Christian beliefs as well the way we act as Christians. RetroSteve : In reply to what you previously responded: But they were translated like that because of the context. We know that there are different meanings for some words in Greek and Hebrew, that's why scholars use the context to pick the right meaning to the sentence. I specifically posted the KJV version of the text since it was the version that you prefer, but if you look at every single version, none of them translated the verse using strength or might It makes absolutely no sense to translate them as "And he said, I [am] strength/might, the God of thy father:" or "And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty strength/might, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." It makes absolutely no sense. The Jewish community would not even translate it like that. You also need to look at other verses that were written similarly. For example: The phrase "Mighty God" was found in the next chapter: "The remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God" (Isaiah 10:21) Same two Hebrew words and this is actually talking about God, specifically about the remnant will return to God. Finally, considering the fact that this word is translated as God 213 times, compared to might (once) and power (four times). It based off of how the context dictates the meaning of scripture. If you want to start off with a different point, feel free to start one. Anyone else who wants to join in the conversation, reply to either me or RetroSteve's posts. |
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01-27-13 12:22 AM
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ok well first let me say THANKYOU for putting in the time and effort you have to this and to appologise I have been coming at this wrong . truth is I'm just quoting argument that I remember from when I was a mormon since no one ever told me there was another valid way of thinking I never really thought about it as it is more logical to say they are seprate and god is god the few sciptures that say jesus os god are probably mis interpreted then to try to explain how they are 3 seperate But really only 1 and the only real differance is in the use of godhead instead of god ie GODHEAD = Father Son Holy spirit or God = Father son Holy spirt either way both believe that jesus has the power and authority over and above all others except GOD or Himself and is worthy of praise. yes I am conceding the validity of your arggument But I think we need to find common ground accross all Christians and not get stuck on wording so I think I will just stick to the teachings of Jesus witch I think are far more important clear and interesting. Here are some interesting points I have also never really noticed before A bit strange that the prophecy states his name will be Emanuel yet his name is jesus and with 2 diferent meaning's I assume thats to do with hebrew and greek words or some such and the fact that the gospels unlike I thought are from more then one source (4 or 2 depending on the theory) and not thought to have been written by the apostles. . oh and then there are the 2 diferent Geneologies of jesus that seem to be inacurate until you assume one is for the son of joseph and the other son of Mary. then there is the wrathfull nature of the old testament god and the forgiving nature of jesus and the scripture about an unchanging god.come to think of it also the time or times when god changes his name and that scripture can't remember about that though oh and do you think we have prophets today there you go plenty for you or anyone else to get stuck into there  ok well first let me say THANKYOU for putting in the time and effort you have to this and to appologise I have been coming at this wrong . truth is I'm just quoting argument that I remember from when I was a mormon since no one ever told me there was another valid way of thinking I never really thought about it as it is more logical to say they are seprate and god is god the few sciptures that say jesus os god are probably mis interpreted then to try to explain how they are 3 seperate But really only 1 and the only real differance is in the use of godhead instead of god ie GODHEAD = Father Son Holy spirit or God = Father son Holy spirt either way both believe that jesus has the power and authority over and above all others except GOD or Himself and is worthy of praise. yes I am conceding the validity of your arggument But I think we need to find common ground accross all Christians and not get stuck on wording so I think I will just stick to the teachings of Jesus witch I think are far more important clear and interesting. Here are some interesting points I have also never really noticed before A bit strange that the prophecy states his name will be Emanuel yet his name is jesus and with 2 diferent meaning's I assume thats to do with hebrew and greek words or some such and the fact that the gospels unlike I thought are from more then one source (4 or 2 depending on the theory) and not thought to have been written by the apostles. . oh and then there are the 2 diferent Geneologies of jesus that seem to be inacurate until you assume one is for the son of joseph and the other son of Mary. then there is the wrathfull nature of the old testament god and the forgiving nature of jesus and the scripture about an unchanging god.come to think of it also the time or times when god changes his name and that scripture can't remember about that though oh and do you think we have prophets today there you go plenty for you or anyone else to get stuck into there |
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01-31-13 12:25 AM
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RetroSteve : Oh yeah...there's a lot to cover here. haha
Again, the Trinity is very crucial and it is a primary issue when it comes to the belief in Christianity. Getting this wrong can mean that we are believing a different Jesus or a different God. A bit strange that the prophecy states his name will be Emanuel yet his name is jesus and with 2 diferent meaning's I assume thats to do with hebrew and greek words or some such and the fact that the gospels unlike I thought are from more then one source (4 or 2 depending on the theory) and not thought to have been written by the apostles. . Not sure what you are trying to convey here, but this relates to the thread that this discussion was on. Jesus' is also called Immanuel. If you look at Matthew, Matthew quoted Isaiah when accounting Jesus' birth, stating that this prophecy has been fulfilled, that Jesus is Immanuel. "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel†(which means, God with us)." (Matthew 1:22-23) oh and then there are the 2 diferent Geneologies of jesus that seem to be inacurate until you assume one is for the son of joseph and the other son of Mary. You also want to check out the purpose of the book itself before looking into the genealogies. The two authors chose to pick different genealogies because they are using those for the purpose of the biography that they write. Matthew was written to the Jews to show that Jesus was a descendant of David and the true Messiah of Israel, since it is traditionally for the Jewish community to write genealogies based on the males. However, Jesus is not biologically Joseph's son, so Luke, who was writing to the Gentiles, used Mary's genealogy to show that Jesus is biologically a descendant of David and the true Messiah of Israel. then there is the wrathfull nature of the old testament god and the forgiving nature of jesus and the scripture about an unchanging god.come to think of it also the time or times when god changes his name and that scripture can't remember about that though Right, people get so caught up with the idea that God is a wrathful God in OT while God is a gracious God in NT, when in reality, God is both in both testaments. God is wrathful towards sin because He is a just God and hates sin, as seen in both OT and NT (God's anger when Israel disobeyed Him; Jesus' multiple occasions of scolding the Pharisees and even spoke woes against them; Jesus' anger towards making the temple into a marketplace). God is also a merciful God and is gracious, but does not throw grace around carelessly when He knows that the person won't turn. (Psalm 145:8: The Lord is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.; Jonah and Nineveh; with all the things that Israel has done during Moses' time, God is actually pretty gracious for not destroying the entire nation and destroying the covenant) oh and do you think we have prophets today No, I don't. Prophets are those who communicate directly from God to people. Their words are the same as divine revelation, which is why the prophets word's are recorded in the Bible. I believe that type of communication ended when it is written in Revelation that no word shall be added or taken away from this book. (Revelation 22:18-19) The only other prophets that I would expect to appear are the two witnesses in Revelation 11. Again, the Trinity is very crucial and it is a primary issue when it comes to the belief in Christianity. Getting this wrong can mean that we are believing a different Jesus or a different God. A bit strange that the prophecy states his name will be Emanuel yet his name is jesus and with 2 diferent meaning's I assume thats to do with hebrew and greek words or some such and the fact that the gospels unlike I thought are from more then one source (4 or 2 depending on the theory) and not thought to have been written by the apostles. . Not sure what you are trying to convey here, but this relates to the thread that this discussion was on. Jesus' is also called Immanuel. If you look at Matthew, Matthew quoted Isaiah when accounting Jesus' birth, stating that this prophecy has been fulfilled, that Jesus is Immanuel. "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel†(which means, God with us)." (Matthew 1:22-23) oh and then there are the 2 diferent Geneologies of jesus that seem to be inacurate until you assume one is for the son of joseph and the other son of Mary. You also want to check out the purpose of the book itself before looking into the genealogies. The two authors chose to pick different genealogies because they are using those for the purpose of the biography that they write. Matthew was written to the Jews to show that Jesus was a descendant of David and the true Messiah of Israel, since it is traditionally for the Jewish community to write genealogies based on the males. However, Jesus is not biologically Joseph's son, so Luke, who was writing to the Gentiles, used Mary's genealogy to show that Jesus is biologically a descendant of David and the true Messiah of Israel. then there is the wrathfull nature of the old testament god and the forgiving nature of jesus and the scripture about an unchanging god.come to think of it also the time or times when god changes his name and that scripture can't remember about that though Right, people get so caught up with the idea that God is a wrathful God in OT while God is a gracious God in NT, when in reality, God is both in both testaments. God is wrathful towards sin because He is a just God and hates sin, as seen in both OT and NT (God's anger when Israel disobeyed Him; Jesus' multiple occasions of scolding the Pharisees and even spoke woes against them; Jesus' anger towards making the temple into a marketplace). God is also a merciful God and is gracious, but does not throw grace around carelessly when He knows that the person won't turn. (Psalm 145:8: The Lord is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.; Jonah and Nineveh; with all the things that Israel has done during Moses' time, God is actually pretty gracious for not destroying the entire nation and destroying the covenant) oh and do you think we have prophets today No, I don't. Prophets are those who communicate directly from God to people. Their words are the same as divine revelation, which is why the prophets word's are recorded in the Bible. I believe that type of communication ended when it is written in Revelation that no word shall be added or taken away from this book. (Revelation 22:18-19) The only other prophets that I would expect to appear are the two witnesses in Revelation 11. |
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01-31-13 09:23 PM
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play4fun : on Matthew 1:22-23 just thought it was interesting that the angel didn't just say call him Emmanuel and make it simple one of the people in a discussion group I'm in put it quite nice I though Jesus didn't come to do the things he did as GOD that would have been pointless he came to do them as a man also I miss read my book ... Although Anon there is a lot of evidence pointing to the apostles writing the gospels from multiple sources I blame late night bible study for that one and 2 points about the scripture in revelations 1 - prophecy won't need to add to revelations in order to be from GOD 2 - the book can't refer to the entire Bible since it is a collection of books. I personally remain open to GOD communicating to us perhaps as Jesus or the Holy spirit. one of the people in a discussion group I'm in put it quite nice I though Jesus didn't come to do the things he did as GOD that would have been pointless he came to do them as a man also I miss read my book ... Although Anon there is a lot of evidence pointing to the apostles writing the gospels from multiple sources I blame late night bible study for that one and 2 points about the scripture in revelations 1 - prophecy won't need to add to revelations in order to be from GOD 2 - the book can't refer to the entire Bible since it is a collection of books. I personally remain open to GOD communicating to us perhaps as Jesus or the Holy spirit. |
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02-11-13 08:58 AM
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RetroSteve : Yeah, it could be, but under their understanding (since they are familiar with the Hebrew scriptures) they must have known that they were referring to the same person.
The idea of prophecy is that it is a revelation from God. As for Revelation 22, John was concerned about his letter (referred as a book of prophecy) would be added or subtracted. He views the book to be a revelation of God and warns to those who would add or subtract to God's revelation. Now, the same principle can be applied to the rest of the Bible, since we believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it is wrong to add or subtract to what was written in the Word of God. Jesus even promised concerning the subtraction of God's Word: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18) The idea of prophecy is that it is a revelation from God. As for Revelation 22, John was concerned about his letter (referred as a book of prophecy) would be added or subtracted. He views the book to be a revelation of God and warns to those who would add or subtract to God's revelation. Now, the same principle can be applied to the rest of the Bible, since we believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it is wrong to add or subtract to what was written in the Word of God. Jesus even promised concerning the subtraction of God's Word: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18) |
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