Let's try not to bash each other on this topic, but this is the greatest debate inside the Christian community. Let's see how this goes here (or if there is any interest here)

The topic is Calvinism and Arminianism (or what some people deem as Predestination vs. Free will)

Summary of the beliefs of Calvinism and Arminianism:
http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html

I consider myself as a 4 point Calvinist, meaning that of the 5 points of Calvinism, I agree with 4 of the points. The only think that I have trouble agreeing with is "Limited Atonement", which states that Christ died only for the elect (which technically is true, but I don't think the "intention" was that, but I did not have a full investigation on it)

I think I would fall more on the side of Arminian then... cause I don't think God pre-determined much.... and I believe that people can fall from grace...

I also think that people can and do resist the Holy Spirit. I don't think God can remain God while forcing us to believe in him.

But in the end salvation doesn't depend on what we think about these issues, but whether we have faith in the atonement of Jesus and his ability to forgive us and cleanse us of our sins.

geeogree : It all starts from total depravity. Everyone has been corrupted by sin and affects every part of us. The heart is "deceitfully wicked" (Jeremiah 17:9), that "no one is righteous" (Romans 1:18), that our righteous acts are like "filthy garments" (Isaiah 64:4), and because of this total corruption, man would not have the ability to choose light by themselves. They will "love darkness" (John 3:19), and they will reject God's law: "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so" (Romans 8:7) So if it was based off of our will that leads to salvation, no one will choose God, because our minds would be corrupt by sin that we would not want to choose God.

This is why predestination is such a gracious doctrine. Because of God's grace, man is able to choose God. According to the book of Jonah, "salvation is of the Lord" Without it, no one would be saved, and the glory would come from God.

And because Salvation is by God, I do not believe people can fall away from it. Those who are truly saved will remain saved because they are belong to God already. Like a good shepherd, God cannot lose His sheep. God is sovereign, so he is in control.

What do you think of this verse about predestination: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30)

I believe in 2 points that Calvinism made, and 3 points that Arminianism made. I believe in the total inability point that Calvinism made because its nothing we did or ever will do that can earn us salvation. I believe in the conditional election point because I believe that everybody has a choice to except God. I believe in Universal Redemption because a person actually has to except Christ, although Christ did make it possible. I believe that the Holy Spirit can be resisted because ultimately its our choice to convert or stay the same. I believe in the perseverance of the Saints because I don't think that we can lose our salvation.

I think you guys over emphasize the "nothing we do will earn us salvation" part... since you actually are required to do at least a few things in order to be saved. Whether you "earn" it, or simply meet the standards Jesus set out is a moot point. Some people will do what is required to be saved, others won't... therefore, the ones that did what was required "earned" salvation by doing what they had to do.

Actually, traditional Arminians also believe in total depravity. Here is clip from one of my favorite preachers, Paul Washer, with him describing the extent of total depravity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQFOaoK0EIs

Concerning the resisting of the holy spirit, I think since we are talking about Soteriology (theology of salvation), we are talking about resisting the holy spirit about conversion, which irresistible grace is saying that no matter how much a person resists, God's grace would sooner or later influence the person to cooperate and accept the holy spirit's work of salvation. This would makes sense to the predestination camp that irresistible grace is accepted, due to an emphasis of God's sovereignty.


Hoochman : So if you believe in total depravity...how can someone be able to make the choice to choose Christ in their sinful state? Unless through God's grace, that they were regenerated first, that they are able to choose Christ.

What is your position in terms of predestination?


geeogree : well the only things that a Christian needs to "do" in order to receive eternal life is repentance and faith...which isn't really a deed or a work at all. Jesus did everything on the cross. We just receive His gift by turning to Him, which is exactly what repentance and faith is. That's it. We do absolutely nothing. As a matter of fact, our confession of faith is worth absolutely nothing.

Also, if you are thinking about Baptism, reading the Bible, prayer, fellowship with other Christians, living in holiness, as the "works," they are not the CAUSE of salvation, they are the RESULTS of salvation. After our conversion, God would do a work in your life, that we would desire what God loves, and hate the things that God hates. Christians after conversion would do good works, not to earn salvation, but because they are already saved, and they desire to be like God. The desire to seek God, know more about God, and obey God itself, is evidence of a person being truly saved.


"Jesus paid it all, All to Him I owe; Sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow" --"Jesus paid it all" (a hymn)

"well the only things that a Christian needs to "do" in order to receive eternal life is repentance and faith...which isn't really a deed or a work at all."

so, changing your life to be in conformity with the person God wants you to be is not work?

Yeah, that's where we differ. If it were so easy more people would be doing a better job at it.

geeogree : The greek word for Repentance is metanoia. From this word, repentance is defined as a change in mind, a purely intellectual thing. It is a change in attitude towards sin. Some of us call "repentance and faith" as two sides of the same coin. you can't have faith without repentance, and you can't have repentance without faith.

"One person once told me: 'well, I have a new relationship with God' and I replied: 'well do you have a new relationship with sin, because if you don't have a new relationship with sin, you don't have a new relationship with God" --Paul Washer

The repentance that you are thinking about is the process of sanctification. You are referring to the actual action of living in holiness and avoid sin and doing good works. Again, this evidence of the change in lifestyle is the RESULT of salvation, not the CAUSE of salvation. When someone because a Christian, they are regenerated (as a Calvinist, I believe that they are regenerated before conversion), so not only do they choose Christ, but God also does a work in their life where you can see real change. Overall, Jesus Christ did it all, and it is only through His grace that we are saved, we just either accept or reject that gift that He gave us.

"If it were so easy more people would be doing a better job at it."

To repeat from your comment about "doing a better job". It is a intellectual thing. However, even though it may sound easy, many are not willing to drop their sin. They love their sin sooooooo much, that even the appeal about eternal life would not sway them to surrender to God. And as Christian, we still do sin, because we are still in the earthly flesh, but Christians DO NOT "live" in sin or "dive" in sin (these verbs are used to describe people would just sin without any internal struggle).

And I would say this, if you see someone who claims themselves to be a Christian, yet they are living a lifestyle of sin as if Jesus never came to die for Him (different with stumbling to sin, because we are still in our earthy flesh)--if they are living it with no desire to change even though he knows that it is sinning against God. That person has never been converted, meaning he was never a Christian, because a Christian would have evidence of God changing his life, and his works (fruits) would show it.

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." (Matthew 7:16-20)

yeah, but most of this is based on the idea of total depravity which I don't agree with.

I don't think that just because we have sinned or can sin that that means we are unable to choose to follow God over the devil.

I'm rereading your posts and it sounds like you don't think humans have free will. At least not in the complete sense. "Like a good shepherd, God cannot lose His sheep. God is sovereign, so he is in control." So, you're saying that once I'm saved I can't change my mind? I'm not suggesting I would, but you make it sound like you lose the choice.

What you call predestination I call fore-ordination. While God may have a plan in store for us, we are still required to choose to follow it.

Basically I'm stuck on the idea that we are free to choose in every case from beginning to end. This entire life is a series of choices... to follow God or not. At no point are we forced or unable to make a different choice. You may disagree with me.... but that doesn't change the fact that I'm free to choose to follow God or not

play4fun : Because I believe we are completely unable to attain salvation by our selves even if we want it. So I guess I would believe partially what was said on total depravity because we really have fallen short, I think a human can want salvation, but due to his sinful nature, he cannot earn it. After all, it does say in Ephesians that we all have fallen short, and in Ephesians 2:8-10 that salvation was not from anything we did. I think on predestination, that it is completely our choice to except Jesus, but again our sinfulness prevents us from ever earning it.

"I think a human can want salvation, but due to his sinful nature, he cannot earn it."

Well, if you weren't sinful then you wouldn't need salvation.... but because you are you need it.

I've heard it put this way: Any good deed you do is immediately paid back to you by God in some form of blessing. So, not matter what you try to do to pay God back for salvation he is paying you back with extra blessings so you will always be indebted to him for what he has done for you.

This is the way I've always thought of the whole good works thing about Christianity. "Faith without works is dead" I believe it says in the bible. I have always interpreted that to mean works don't give you salvation, instead; works come from having faith and already being saved. That's just how I've interpreted works role in it.

geeogree : total depravity does not mean that you have sinned, it means that your entire human nature has been corrupted by sin. Your thoughts, your actions, your motives, etc. In Romans 3:9-12, it states that both "Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.", that “there is no one righteous, not even one", that "no one who understands", that "no one who seeks God." and that "all have turned away," Also, the Bible states that the wickedness of man would suppress the truth (Romans 1:8) and they would find the message of the cross as foolishness, because they do not understand and are "spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14) They would love their sin. So yeah, from these descriptions, I do not think Man would even have the ability to choose God unless God predestines them.
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"So, you're saying that once I'm saved I can't change my mind? I'm not suggesting I would, but you make it sound like you lose the choice."

Actually it's more like if you are truly saved, you would not lose it. People who say that "they were Christians but they just lose it now," I don't buy it. I don't think they were ever converted in the first place, just another false conversion. 2 of the verses that shows this is (1 John 2:19) and (John 10:27-30)

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (1 John 2:19)

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30)

and remember, when Jesus talked about those who believed, he promised that they will have eternal life. And those who are of him are guaranteed to gain their "inheritance" from him.
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I believe we have free will. We still make choices that will lead to what our future holds, but if our salvation is from our free will, no one would choose God. That is why I believe God has predestined us to be saved.
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Hoochman : What do you think of this verse?

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

play4fun : I interpret the verse to mean we all have a purpose, and the purpose was for us to be like his son. Although we were still given free will and the power to resist.

Hoochman : Could you clarify how you can interpret that way? Because by context, especially in verse 30, when it is talking about what church fathers call the order of salvation or "ordo salutis," I don't see how you can interpret that way.

From it, the order is this: predestination -> calling -> justification -> glorification

play4fun : What I mean is, we were called to be like his son. Are calling is to be in the likeness of his son.

I think John Broadus, a well-known New Testament scholar and preacher of the 19th century, wrote it well. Asking the question: "Does faith come before the new birth?" he wrote "No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes."

Hi, i'm David,
I would like to say that i personally dont see myself as an Arminian or Calvinist
The thing i see as a problem in Calvinist views though is that Calvinism says that we are regenerated first , then we are able to put faith in Christ.

But Ephesians 2:8-9 states "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
This verse says that we are saved by faith, but if we are regenerated first then faith isnt what saves us, faith is the result of being saved. And if faith is the result of being saved faith has nothing to do with salvation.

and we must be born again to see the kingdom of God
John 3:3 "In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
and how are we born again?
John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name"
so we are born again when we receive him.

i do believe that man is unable to seek God alone and man does need God to draw him in order to receive salvation but
i see it as God's ways are more higher than ours and it goes beyond our understanding. But nevertheless we should all stay united. =]

indiancrash : YESSS!!! Someone to talk to one this subject!!!

The verse that you just posted is not against the Calvinist view. Salvation is through faith and repentance towards God. That is a response to God for receiving that gift.

However, to go back to how our original state of being: We are unregenerate before we become Christians. What does it mean to be unregenerate? That we would have a heart of stone (Ezekiel 36:26), that our hearts are deceitfully wicked (Jeremiah 17:9), and we were "objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3)...Romans talks more about our original state:

"What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, NO ONE who SEEKS God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." (Romans 3:9-12)

sooo with the heart of stone that we have, we cannot seek God on our own, because we are corrupted by sin. But it was God that leads a person to seek after God and to have a person reborn from their unregenerate self. Simply put, they cannot have faith in God without God first predestining, calling, electing, and regenerating their heart to make that response to him.

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30)

"A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances." (Ezekiel 36:26–27)

yes i agree with the evilness of mans heart and man wont come to God unless God draws him. To tell the truth when i was looking into Calvinism and Arminianism i was leaning more toward Calvinism but i guess where faith comes from started looking like a problem to me.

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes (Romans 1:16)
So whoever believes will have salvation.

(Romans 10:13) "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]
So were not saved until we call upon the name of the Lord.
But how do we believe?
(Romans 10:14)How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent?
(Romans 10:17)Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

So this seems to say that faith comes from hearing the message(gospel), allowing us to believe and call upon the name of the Lord, then allowing us to be saved.

To me, the scriptures do say that man has to believe and that God also has to draw and that he chooses us. To me, mans choice and Gods decision to choose and draw work hand in hand in some way.