What do you mean they are going to sever all economic ties with Arizona? You mean they are pulling an embargo on all goods going to Arizona? That seems a bit odd considering there horrible financial crisis. So much drama going on, Arizona fighting about illegals, cali fighting economics, and my state fighting weed laws... how fun

Yes, that is exactly what I mean.

Articile: http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_14971055

Second Article: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/crime/la-me-0428-arizona-boycott-20100428,0,3583777.story

I wonder how many more ripple effects this is going to cause in usa, might get so bad every state is against one another and they will have no option left but to fuse canada, mexico, and usa into their whole north american union idea they got going on. Each state has its own messed up laws so its only fair Arizona gets their own

I think a big portion of this debate relies on the fact that illegals can be paid under the table cheap and save corporations money so I can see why they make a big deal out of it. They are trying to save money.

Theres different view points in this whole thing but I think ultimately from business perspective they just oppose it cause illegals can be used cheaply. The other half is the viewpoint of the hispanics themselves.

One solution would be for corporations to give illegals green cards if they want work for them, pay for their english classes, and pay them well to avoid outsourcing cheaper as they do currently. End the bullsh*t outsourcing, if they want illegals they need to fix how they run business else they should not be complaining cause what they are doing is a disgrace to this country.

Originally posted by JigSaw

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"It is illegal for a cop to come up to you and even bother you with out probable cause that you commited or are in the act of committing a crime."

So being illegal doesn't count as a crime?

"Hence if they even talk to you, YOU have been seized"

Wrong, you are only seized when in cuffs and in their car. Seized means "to take hold of suddenly or forcibly" talking does not fit that definition.

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I understand what your saying, but it is unfair to the hispanic people that are legal citizens, thats all I'm saying.


And again you should really check up on search and seizure laws. Or the next time a cop approaches you(when you know you havent done anything wrong), try to keep walking and see what his definition of seized is.(wont be fun)

And I dont know what california is thinking, they dont do anything about illegals either. Their illegal situation is way worse then arizonas.

@lagslayer about the rodeo
1. I dont think you understand what I was saying.
2. Tucson is not a small town, and I understand the rodeo is a tradition here.
3. I was using the rodeo as a holiday to compare it to MLK day as a holiday.(School holiday)
4. And Mlk day isnt just a holiday for black people, its for anyone that cares about civil rights. Seeing he was a pretty big person in US civil rights history. But over here that seemed to just be a opinion.(until theyre funding was threatened)

Before reading this thread, I was already entirely against this Arizona law. After reading all of your posts, my opinion hasn't changed one bit. As Elara said, it justifies racial profiling, which is completely unacceptable. I'm a LEGAL Mexican-American and I am offended that this law is aimed at Mexicans. I know that if I were unfortunate enough to be living in Arizona as a Mexican-American with the passage of this law, I would not feel safe walking the streets without fearing some police officer stopping me to ask for my papers.

Racial profiling is apart of the job, when you phone cops and describe someone you need to "racially profile" them. So I don't see how its so different in this case. How about hookers? That is sexist when they only target the women, so they should protest too. Also people who don't wear prep clothes should protest for discrimination.

Law or not, cops WILL judge you based on how you look, what skin you have, and what sex you are. It's human nature to find things different then you suspicious. I don't know anyone who feels safe around cops period so this law should not change view points on cops. I don't feel safe either cause I have had some fked up experiences around them.

While I don't like illegals entering this country, I do understand the viewpoint of hispanics. I've been through the system many times for doing nothing wrong so either way, they will try to screw you. Even if they kill this law, racism will still exist and they will always try and get you in the system by any means possible. Even if that means running away from them that is resisting arrest even if you do nothing wrong. Even if you have a weapon and don't use it on anyone that is still a crime. Self defense is also a crime especially if used on cops themselves they will screw you good.

Maybe the problem isn't so much illegals in this country, its cops and government and their messed up system I don't care anymore, let the illegals in and we can start a revolution I would rather be around illegals then corrupt nazis with nightsticks and firearms thats for sure.

Originally posted by Elara

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It is legalization of racial profiling.

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There are better ways, like actually pushing for reforming the immigration laws to get rid of the problem... but no, they are going the racist route.

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There are several reasons that I am against it and several reasons why I am for it...

What I hate about it:

1. Like Elara, I don't like the racism in the law... It discourages hispanics from living in Arizona, because cops can randomly put hispanics in jail if they "look" suspicious... I mean, how many people carry around their birth certificates around these days? This law encourages the growth of racism in Arizona and says it is okay to judge whether someone is illegal based on appearances.

2. JS- I know that racism exists there already, but why should it be encouraged? If we ever want racism to stop, then we should be doing the opposite of this law, because the promotion of racism will just divide our country even more in the south...

Why I am for it:

1. With this law, it will be less likely for illegal immigrants to come into the United States through Arizona

2. Discourages illegal immigrants to enter the United States at all.

JS- lol, Yeah, cop and government corruption is worse than illegals...

I think the government should work more on border patrol before they start making laws like that in Arizona though. like tonetone's been saying, it's definitely not fair for those who are legal Hispanics in Arizona. They're US citizens too, so why should they put up with it. It's racial profiling, it's also disregarding their rights as American citizens.

Isn't this like what the Nazis did to the Jewish people? They had to carry around ID cards and produce them whenever asked.

How do you tell if someone is an illegal immigrant? Because someone looks Hispanic? Because they don't speak English very well? This is racial stereotyping. Not everyone that lives in the US speaks English. There are members of my family that don't speak English very well or even at all.

I just find this proposal a little ridiculous. I don't think that this will stop illegal immigrants from coming over at all. They are already breaking one law, what stops them from breaking another? I just don't think that this is a reasonable way to decrease illegal immigration.

God no, I don't think that we are planning a second Holocaust. EVERYONE in the state of Arizona is supposed to carry around the ID cards/ paperwork that are planned, not just illegal immigrants (who wouldn't even have said identification as it would only be given out to legal citizens). Think of it as a driver's license. You can only drive if you have one, as it proves that you are in legal possession of a car (if any), you have passed driver's ed/ another course, and it is safe for you to be on the roads.
I think I actually like the concept of what I'm seeing here. I can not find any racist parts in the law. Basically, if you are doing a crime or suspicious activities (ie, driving a car filled with twenty people in it), they can stop you and then ask you for papers proving your legality. Yes, I see how this can be abused, but I can't find anything that is blatantly racist in it. The cops need to have a good reason to stop you, and they won't be able to otherwise. So for all of you people saying that it is unfair to Hispanic citizens, unless they are doing something illegal in their car, they can not and will not be stopped. If the cops see a white or someone who "looks like a legal citizen" (they aren't Hispanic and whatever other criteria you've listed here) driving with a car filled with crack (yes, the cops have x-ray visions and can see into the trunk of your car for the purposes of this example), they will still pull over the white guy because he is breaking the law and doing something suspicious. There is no provision for racial stereotyping concerning the law. Sure, a car stuffed full of Hispanics might cause them to be a bit more suspicious, but a random person who happens to be Hispanic is not going to get stopped merely for being Hispanic.
Also, it makes me laugh when they ask government official's opinion about the law and said official hasn't read the law. Yes, I know that I haven't read the law myself, but 1. I'm not the attorney general, and 2. I can't find a copy. Can't find it on google, don't know where else to look. If anyone has a copy of it and can send me a link, be my guest.

~sakura~ : There's these things called fake IDs... I'm pretty sure they have such things. Can you describe a "non illegal person?" Is it possible to be able to just tell if the person looks like a citizen or an illegal immigrant just by looking at them? What if they thought you looked "suspicious" and then pulled you over or apprehended you or whatever it is they do to them over there. Just because you look suspicious. Are you kidding me? The fact is, they're going to pull over or check Hispanics because they look like illegal immigrants to them.
Hispanics have the same rights as any other legal resident of this country. You're violating their rights as Americans if you go ahead and just searched them or whatever just because they're "suspicious" or if they're Hispanic. It's just plain wrong. They don't only search or ask for papers from people that are committing a crime. Trust me, they wouldn't take that chance. It's ridiculous how this would work.
That's why I think Obama and the government really need to step it up on strengthening the border. Not letting illegal immigrants into America would definitely solve the problem. It's better than being racist and violating people's rights.

"That's why I think Obama and the government really need to step it up on strengthening the border. Not letting illegal immigrants into America would definitely solve the problem. It's better than being racist and violating people's rights."

Exactly.
I saw on the news the president sent 1,200 national guardsmen, but I dont know how much good that'll do.

mdynasty926 : People who will be searched according to the new law will be searched because of their suspicious behavior- driving in an interesting manner, swimming across the Rio Grande, having a car full of people- not the "suspicious" behavior that you are implying. It's not because they are Hispanic! The law specifically states that cops are not allowed to racial stereotype for people who they believe are doing suspicious behaviors. This law is not bias against Hispanics people, and it doesn't intend to do so. In theory, the law is a good idea, but there are so many ways that this could go wrong, but it is the first of its kind and it is good that they are actually trying to stop immigration for once.
And yes, I believe that sealing the borders would help, but how could you do it? Fences don't really work (we have one, which didn't work. Also, look at the Great Wall 2,000 years ago. The northern raiders had so much less technology than us and they still climbed the wall. Now, with all of the new tech that we have access to, we wouldn't be able to stop people with just a wall). I suppose we could put up a massive force field around the country, but...

~sakura~ : No, but having a car full of people should not be enough to even have cops pull them over. Even if it doesn't intend to, doesn't mean it doesn't end up being bias. And "In theory" isn't enough. You said it yourself, there are so many ways it can go wrong. Then, don't do it!! It's that simple. Stopping immigration shouldn't come to this.
I'm saying that Obama is being way too lenient on these immigration policies and stuff. Plus, doesn't he have some kind of support policy, like, giving them jobs and such? That would be ridiculous but I think I heard that from some where. The fact is, we CAN strengthen America's borders, but our government really hasn't been doing much about it.
(Plus, we actually should have the technology. The Great Wall analogy is a rather irrelevant one.)

mdynasty926 : When I say car full of people, I mean a compact car that is filled with eleven or twelve different people when it should only fit four or five. First, they wouldn't be wearing seat belts properly, which is both illegal (in my state) and a safety hazard. I do agree that this law could go wrong, but not acting is worse than acting wrong in this sense. The whole immigration problem is like being caught between a rock and a hard place. If we continue letting in people in through our borders, we have health care problems, kidnapping, and any other problems you guys can think of with illegal immigration. If we act with things such as this law, people have the racism debate like we are having right now. There is practically no diplomatic way out of this. If we manage to perfectly or near- perfectly seal out illegal aliens, we still have the issue of the nearly 11 million illegal immigrants who are already in the country. What are we supposed to do?

Also, the Great Wall analogy of mine was poorly phrased. What I meant to say is that there is a lot of technology that we (as the world) have access to which can help people breach our (as a country) wall (such as cars, fake ID's, etc).

~sakura~ : Not acting is worse? But we can act a better way. This law just doesn't cut it.
And that's why I said we should strengthen the borders!!!!! You keep ranting on about what happens if we let people in our borders. I never wanted them in our borders. I never wanted a diplomatic way, a compromise. I wanted them to get all the illegal immigrants out of our country stealing jobs from true American citizens. The fact is, if the immigration problem is stopped, or if it is decreased significantly, it should already end the problem. We don't have to go to extremes by having people check IDs and stuff all the time.
And we should have our own technology to counter that. The United States is probably one of the most technological countries in the world. We CAN and SHOULD strengthen the borders, and then we can deal with the illegals in the country. First things first.

mdynasty926 : I agree entirely. We should be able to protect our borders, we just have a couple of problems at this specific time. First, we are in an economic recession. Unemployment is in the double digits in some places, and some people feel that we do not have the money to spare to seal up our borders. It's not as easy as it sounds- there are thousands of miles of border to cover, so fences, watch towers, and check points would have to be either really spread out or badly put together with the small budget that we have access to. I agree with your thoughts on the illegal immigrants in our border, but we can't just go around hunting out illegal immigrants and killing them (I know you didn't say this, but I forgot to bring this point up last time), because we will be viewed as an evil country killing innocent immigrants or something. So we kind of do need a diplomatic solution to this, but not a compromise. (Also, extremes would not be ID checks. It would be death for everyone in the country. Yup. That is what I would call extreme. Why am I smiling? WTH?)

~sakura~ : No no... we don't need to kill anyone XD
But, I think we need to... kick em out. Like... send them back to Mexico or something. It's just not fair to Americans. Let Mexico deal with em XD
It might not be easy, but it needs to happen. Consider the fact that unemployment can be associated to illegal immigrants. We can do better than this.
The budget should be somewhat bigger then if we can't do well with the border with our current budget.

mdynasty926 : I agree entirely. However, deporting illegal immigrants brings us back to the original question of finding said illegal immigrants, meaning that we need some form of legislation to allow the finding and subsequent deportation, bringing us back to the Arizona law. It is the first of its kind (that I know of. Please correct me if I'm wrong), and I give the Arizona legislature credit for making a law such as this when the federal government wouldn't even dare to do something like this. Yes, I think we should restructure the budget that we have, but we have a 12+ trillion dollar deficit. Try explaining to an entire country why we should build a giant wall when we our debt currently has eleven digits in it.

~sakura~ : Hmmm, I think the whole country would want to restructure the budget.
The Arizona law, though it might be the first of its kind, there's a large reason that the feds wouldn't do that. And that's what I've been arguing about the whole time. Explain to citizens who have been stopped how that's not violation of their rights.