jasonkelli :
"the liberal media"
Any time i read that i lower my expectations.
All this hidden agenda iluminati crap goes way too far.
Liberal media/conservitive media. No. Its individual companys that push what they want.
And just because they air things they believe in that isnt anti everyone else.
An example please?
"propaganda in music, movies..."
*fetches tinfoil hat*
I think youre getting carried away here.
If i said all that in reverse, pushing christianity, conservative theist propaganda, you'd call me biased, intolerant, hypocritical or such of the like, so i think you need to slow down and try and look at what youre saying from and outside perspective.
"did people" you mean, nazi germany dosent exist anymore.
No, telling people what you believe isnt forcing, but previously you stated mentioning it, even in passing, is a conversion attempt.
Which isnt the case.
Telling people repeatedly, when they have made clear they arent interested, that is forcing.

"like warning...fire."
Except theres proof fire is real, and we know buildings can go up, hence we're inclined to listen.
Warning people of hell is like me warning you theres an invisible unicorn behind you, it cant be seen or proven, and isnt going to be a likely concern any time soon.
There were a few more countrys than the usa that stoped hitler.
And most of the world dont care, its made plum all diference to places like africa where ethnic cleansing is as common as rain.
If i found debating god annoying i wouldnt be here, im stating that you shouldnt pursue people who dont want to hear it, its not fair.
That would be like me repeatedly trying to convert people to atheism. If never tried because i dont care to. Maybe you think i have because iv debated the authenticity of what you say, but since i havent followed up with how atheism got it right, no, i havent tried to.

If you think its hatred or trolling, you either havent read my posts or you simply see people stating there interpretation as hatred. Your perception, but i disagree with that idea.
There is no rule about who can post in here. Merely that its for discussing christianity.
Not that i particulary care but i thought it ironic, that your post was a conversion attempt at the end. Why do you care? Everyone is an individual, whether they share your faith or not dosent effect you.
Youre saying that the posts by christians are gods words. Whats to stop me saying god put my words in my head, to make people try thinking for themself? You cant disprove that any more than i can disprove god put your words in your head.

To get back on topic, evidently you are annoyed that i have thrown my 2 cents on god in, because you dont agree with what i say, well perhaps that gives an idea of what people in real world situations feel like, when atheists, muslims, christians alike are incessantly bombarded with conversion attempts.
That would damage this guys family relationship, and upset a lot of people.
If he cares to, pray for them then, mention it in passing to test the water.
But family are the people who care for and protect you. You cant shun them because they believe different. Some of my family will undoubtably be christian, i really dont care, if it makes them happy then more power to them. Trying to convert them, id regard as rude. Equaly them doing likewise, id regard as the same.
Singelli :
You could have just linked to bible verses or equivelant, you arent suposed to take up your post with a massive quote. Its regarded as cheating for wordcount.

thenumberone :  It really was not that massive.  LOL  Less than 200 words, when many of my posts exceed 500?  I think it's pretty clear I wasn't posting that to 'cheat' on word count.  I don't even care about word count.  LOL

And don't worry, I did ask someone to subtract it from my word count, long before you said anything about it.    I knew there were some people that would care, and I thought about that fact in advance.

thenumberone :  if you think they are all individual companies than you really haven't done your research.  This has nothing to do with illuminati any such thing.

Any individual company that promotes liberal agenda is...get this...a liberal company.  That is the very definition of a liberal (one who adheres to and promotes liberal values).

Secondly, they are all owned by Soros.  Hence, they are not individual companies but are divisions of the same of owner.  Not even these news companies deny that they are owned by the same guy.

And no, there is not always proof that a building is on fire to those inside.  Many people die in burning buildings because there was no sign that the building was on fire until it was too late to escape.  Secondly, you are repeatedly telling us it is wrong to tell others what you believe over and over.  Hence, by your own definition you are forcing your beliefs on us.  By my definition you are simply using free speech.  Hence is the difference between a Naziistic state and a free state.  In one spreading opposing beliefs is a hate crime and in the other it is freedom of speech.

I care because I care.  I don't want to see you or anyone else in hell.  It would take a degree of hatred for me to ignore you as you head to an eternity in hell.  It's because of love that I choose to spread the gospel.  You don't care about conversion because for your beliefs there is no purpose.  Hence why in your beliefs it is easy not to care what happens to others while in mine there is such an extensive focus on loving and doing good to all...even those who hate us and do all manner of evil against us.

I'm going to be honest, this thread, and every other thread like it, just goes to show how big of a mistake religion, especially one like Christianity, is.

jasonkelli : Seems like that end bit was almost discrimination towards Atheists. You basically made it sound like we're all cold hearted people who only care about ourselves. That couldn't be any more false. Many, many people who help and donate and whatever towards others Atheists. Heck, look at Bill Gates, he himself is an atheist, and look at all the things he's done for probably you, and everyone he has donated to, Nya~.
If anything, Christianity is more on the bad end, considering your "Love" and "care" has many boundaries, such as the fact, for a large example, of how everyone must abide by your rules, despite the fact they probably don't even believe in them, and are probably part of the groups you outlaw. For example, the LGBT group. You people outlaw and discriminate them as if thy're doing horrible things, when in reality, they're perfectly normal people whose lives leave no bad effect on you people, nor for themselves even. It wasn't their choice to be among that group, and if you people actually ever took the time to be open minded and look the facts up, it's all based on genes. In fact, I tried to talk to a certain large Christian on this site about it, and she completely ignored looking at all the info and stayed completely close minded. But I'm sure most of you will ignore your "love" for this, and many other, exception(s) and continue to hate against this group and many other groups.

thenumberone : Just so you don't try to act like I'm one of them, I'm gonna type it in big, bold, clear as day text for you, just so there's no confusion: I AM ONE OF THE BIGGEST ATHEISTS ON THIS SITE, AND ONE OF THE BIGGEST HATERS OF RELIGION IN ITS ENTIRETY HERE TOO.
That said, I really must say, your arguments are awful, you as an atheist make us look bad, and you are just in general awful. With people like you here with such attacks, there's no wonder why most Christians hate atheists, whether it be either here or IRL. Your arguments are broken, you almost go into basic bashing, it almost appears as if you're flame baiting most of the time, and really, you're more close minded towards religion than the close minded Christians are towards anything else brought up on here. Like I said, I'm one of the biggest religion haters here, and not even I can respect your anti-religion rants one bit. You just REALLY cross that line by miles upon miles. How have you not been warned, or even banned, over all of these posts yet, Nya~?
-----------------------------------------------------
With that all said, back on to the actual topic that was supposed to be discussed here.
OracleofthePenguin : Like I said earlier, if their anti-religion comments bother you too much, just let them be aware that you are still a Christian, and tell them to just tone it down. Don't try to convert them, and don't try to push your beliefs on them. I can tell you as a fact that if you do, they'll pretty much outcast you :V They have just as much of a right to believe in what they want to as much as you do. Who knows, maybe one day you too will end up being an Atheist like them, or maybe they'll be Christians again on their own. Just let them decide for themselves.

megarovolution1:
Given that i have only debated the authenticity of select statements i think a dictionary would be usefull to you. I havent even said god dosent exist. Iv just pointed out flaws in what has been said.
Ironicaly your rant there was full of "you people." you shouldnt tar everyone with the same brush. There are huge numbers of good christians that dont try to impede people.
You should think about that.
jasonkelli :
Somewhat off topic but, news:
I have no idea about what goes on over the pond, but all i need to say is fox news. I cant say for sure there arent news buissineses with agends, but fox is as far right as they can get away with.

I wasnt saying theres proof the buildings on fire, i was saying that historicaly and with evidence you can see its not uncommon, so you wouldnt risk ignoring the warning.

I am stating that forcing it on people who dont want to hear it is wrong.
Given the point is he dosent know if he should tell his family is the point being made obviously thats what id focuss on.
I dont think iv mentioned what i believe other than stating im not religious, and that i think people should be allowed peace.
In jamaica they banned preaching on buses recently, theyd get there recipients locked in, not fair on atheists, animists or other religious groups who dont want to hear it every day.
Well it is nice of you to want to do what you think helps people, honestly. But if someone had told you about 10 times they didnt want to hear it, surely it would be time to leave them to it.
I care very much for what happens to others. True what i believe dosent require me to.
But if someone cares for others is it because there faith tells them to or simply they want to do what they think is right? If someone is a good person they will act to help others. Equally, if a christian adheres to what the bible tells them, without caring, isnt it said that god judges those pure of heart?
Yes, faith can be good, i dont deny it.
It can go either way though.
Acceptance is the defining factor, people should be inclusive.

To conclude on this guys problem:
He shouldnt hide hes christian, people shouldnt be expected to hide there beliefs.
Its fine for him to discuss it with people.
If people dont want to hear it, he should drop it, if they are willing to accept what he believes he should do the same.
If they dont then he should discuss it with them (why they have such a problem).
Clearly from his post he is pretty distressed.
I would debate he is morally obligated, but if he feels so guity about not saying it, yeh, just say it.
Worse case scenario, his sister belittles him. You have faith in god, have a little faith in your family, if you've had a decent upbringing then you already know they care about you. You dont need gods permission to continue to love them.
And yeh. Pray if it makes you feel better. As good a route as any for a christian.

MegaRevolution1 : I'm gonna have to agree with thenumberone on this one. Argument by association is not a valid way of reasoning your side. You don't want to say that one person or a group's actions demonstrate whether something is true or right. Not everyone follows what they actually believe, either intentionally or unintentionally.

People need to realize that sharing the gospel or even talking/discussing about Christianity IS NOT forcing someone to convert. If you do believe in Christianity or the Bible, your understanding of it should motivate you as well as know that we should evangelize to others. Is there a wrong/immoral way of sharing the gospel? Absolutely, but I don't think that is the case here. Oracle's original concern is simply the mentioning and the defense of his beliefs, none of which are forcing his sister to become a Christian.

One atheist by the name of Penn Jillette said this when recalling his experience of someone giving him a Bible: "How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate someone to believe that everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhG-tkQ_Q2w

So if you understand and believe in the Bible, you would have a viewpoint that more is at stake than just some arbitrary beliefs. It would be wrong and cruel for a Christian to believe in what they believe and not share the gospel to someone. Furthermore, it is part of their worldview, which means the beliefs are not just something to believe in, but that they affect the way the Christian views the world, the way they act, the things that matters, etc, in all aspect of life. Sometime their decision making is based off of their beliefs, so talking about it is reasonable.

OracleofthePenguin : Like what I said before, continue living the Christian faith and the Christian talk. You don't need to go back at her and say "remember that time when you said that God is not real, well, that's not true" If the topic mentions again, then discuss with her about it. If you want to share the gospel to her, find a good time or ask her about it that if it is ok for you, as a brother, to explain your side of this, because you love her so much that you want to at least let her know why Christians believe what they believe, no matter what the result would be. If she doesn't, then move on. Just remember that your actions and your talk should both reflect God. Be a light.

MegaRevolution1 :  Your answer (as it usually is) has no benefit to the forum.  It offers nothing new to the discussion just personal attacks soaked in hatred and violent words.  Such remarks are the reason there is so much hatred, anger, and war in the world today.  I don't bother justifying such with replies.  I can only hope and pray that someday hate will leave your life and you will fill it with love instead.




thenumberone :  Yes, I know about fox news.  Fox news would be conservative media.  The rest are liberal media.  Start counting the liberal media's newspapers, news shows, etcetera and compare that to ... Fox.  That is a mass of "companies" owned by the same guy vs.  ONE company.  If that is not imbalanced news reporting I don't know what is.  

That being said, I don't watch Fox all that much.  I'll skim through some news reports by them, compare them to what the liberal media is saying on the same topics/events and then research the facts of the case through less biased resources to determine what the truth in the matter is (or most likely is).  I do have one reason to respect Fox though...more so than any other news company out there they check their facts as best as they possibly can.  Unbiased research companies have compared the various news networks and found Fox reports the least incorrect information of all them.  Consider this, Fox has never incorrectly reported the winner of a Presidential Election.  They always wait until the winner is almost predominantly decided and there is virtually no means for the other individual to win.  However, in at least 3 Presidential Elections the liberal media has falsely claimed the winner of a Presidential election LONG BEFORE enough votes had been counted for anyone to really know for sure who it might end up being.  That shows a COMPLETE lack for preserving the integrity of information on their part.  I'm not saying the liberal news networks are always wrong, but even independent studies show that they are far more inclined to make false claims due to inferior fact checking procedures.

And no one is forcing anyone to hear their beliefs.  He isn't tying his family to chairs and forcing them to hear what he has to say with their mouths duct tapes shut.  He is simply being told to use opportunities.  Just as you and MegaRevolution1 use every opportunity you can to attack Christianity on here.  Quite frankly, I wouldn't advise anyone to be as pervasive in their witnessing as you two are in your hatred toward Christianity on this forum.  You two are by far and wide more extreme in pushing your views than any Christian I've ever known is in witnessing the gospel.  So, for you two to attack Christians for witnessing at opportunities is hypocritical because you two are far more extreme in pushing your views here on this forum board.



play4fun :  Great quote from Penn Jillette.  That shows a degree of wisdom from him to be able to put his own beliefs to the side to be able to understand another person's.  When we stop hating on other religions and start to understand one another we can bring true peace and love to this world.  However, if we follow in mega's footsteps hating other people's religions and lumping them into categories we find easy to hate we will only war each other into extinction.

To the anti-Christians in this topic: There were no arguments, nor hate of any kind until you came into this topic. Also, don't tell me to be passive. I am not cynical enough to let people venture down the wrong path and not care. Obviously you would tell me not to try to convert them because you don't care. At this point, you cannot understand so your advice is meaningless to me. Please don't think me angry, but until you can understand these sorts of things you have no advice to give. I don't mean to be rude, nor am I angry, but I don't want these kind of arguments.

thenumberone :
play4fun : Right, I probably should have thought that out a bit more, sorry ^^;; (In my defense, however, I posted that at like, what, 1-2AM in my timezone?)
I obviously don't mean 100% EVURY Christian. There are obviously probably thousands of exceptions, and I an name a ton right now, so I apologize for that, Nya~.

That said, I do still think Religion is the biggest mistake throughout the existence of humankind

jasonkelli : I really wanna just say "Likewise" to that comment, but first, please, explain to me why you'd say such a loving and caring comment such as that?

(And if the last bit "I can only hope and pray that someday hate will leave your life and you will fill it with love instead." is referring to hoping I convert to Christianity, lolnope, there's 0% chance of that happening. In all seriousness, I'd go over to Satanism before that)

jasonkelli :
I wont concentrate much on media, i think you may well be mistaken but as i dont live in the usa i really cant much prove it either way, but i know for sure fox is biased. I used to read it online purely because they made such ridiculous claims, and iv seen there news readers cut feed just because an individual questioned the existance of god.

Theres even a thread somewhere in the debate forum or likewise, entitled do you watch the news regularly. Most people agreed fox was biased beyond belief.
For predicting us election winners thats because every paper wants to be first to the headline, getting it wrong is simply sheer stupidity.


Can i just clarify this, because i think you are misunderstanding.

I am not saying he has forced his beliefs, im simply stating he should be carefull he dosent. If nothing else it could damage his family relationship.
Im not in any manor attempting to attack christianity. I have criticised key elements like being against gays and believing in divine healing, because they are dangerous.
As i already conceded it can be good too. A huge percentage of charitys are religious, plus faith isa source of comfort to many. Certain parts of the bible however, are better left in the past.

I would suggest you tell me what extreme views im pushing but that would be off topic. If you care to address them to me you can pm me or whatever, il certainly reply.
But your idea i want to destroy chrisianity is quite incorrect.

play4fun :
I dont think telling your beliefs is forcing, until the person has asked you to stop talking to them about it. After that i think its forcing.

I've always found this to be a fine line to tread.

Don't deny who you are or what you believe. Stick to your values and don't let anyone force you to change who you are.

Likewise, allow others to be who they are. You can't force anyone else to change. If the topic of religion or beliefs come up simply state what you believe, and maybe why you believe it and that's enough. It is counter-productive to try and impose your beliefs on others. They must come to the belief through their own choices.

^Indeed. The way we are, you can't force anyone to change, otherwise they wouldn't have actually changed. Realizations and changes of heart are personal things. The only thing you can do to change someone is be an influence.

To go along with what I said before.... if you expect them to allow you to believe what you believe then you must give them that same respect. They have the right to stick to their beliefs as they are now without feeling like you are passing judgment or otherwise looking down on them for believing what they believe.

You can have faith in God and be a Christian without being obnoxious about it

I honestly am not understanding the problem.

Allow me to flip the tables for a moment.

I'm an atheist. Many of my loved ones call themselves catholic. But while I question their belief, I respect their decision.

For the longest time they all thought I too was like them... so I was in a similar situation. It was... uncomfortable since they spoke of rreligion often. Eventually I had enough and told them I was atheist. Lost a lot of friendships... but if they couldn't accept it then they weren't really friends right?

If you can respect their decision, then I don't think there's a problem, simply put.

After all... it becomes a lot easier to be accepted once you accept others. Accept their choices and be confident in your own. Just don't fly off the handle about it.

Well, I was going to reply probably more, but many of my fellow Christians already said and quoted verses I wanted to say. So I'll just be brief and sum up what I was going to say. 

Oracle :
Colossians 4:5-6 says, "Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned by salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person."

In essence what this passage is saying, with of course the implication that you desire grace, life, and favor imparted to the one you are speaking, but to be careful to speak by the Spirit. 

Proverbs 2  My son, if you will receive my words, and treasure my commandments within you, make your ear attentive to wisdom, incline your heart to understanding. For if you cry for discernment, lift your voice for understanding, if you seek her as silver, and search for her as for hidden treasures, then you will discern the fear of the Lord, and discover the knowledge of God. For the LORD gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Be patient, be gentle, be blameless in your effort. Resist the temptation to argue with someone's intellect. You'll only be caught in a spiral once you try to go that direction, as I have seen and experienced myself. And it's easy to do with one's who are close to our heart, so it is the most tempting.

Remember, Ephesians 6:12 

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

I just want to encourage you and say, you are not the only one with a burden. But don't let despair for others choke out the life and every effort in you. Devote yourself to prayer. And walk in this peace:

Be anxious for nothing. But in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. - Philippians 4:6-7

The battle is not yours, but the Lord's! Be confident that He sees and knows the condition of men. The Lord your God fights for you. AND NEVER underestimate what is happening in the Spirit. Just as God worked His Spirit with you, He does so with them. He put that concern in you. And He is concerned for them more than you. So I encourage you, be obedient, and trust in the Lord. But if He is telling you it is enough, don't try to do more than what He is calling you. You'll wear yourself out.

As Singelli said, in Hebrews 12, there is a great number of people who have gone before us and are cheering us on, so let's fix our eyes on Jesus, run this race, and finish well!

To play4fun,

Your insight is encouraging. Keep it up!

Shalom in Christ 

^Great post! Very encouraging.
Also I should probably clarify that I don't talk about religion with my friends very often and I've never pushed them to convert. I'm sort of taking it slow I guess. Really the most I can do is have faith that everything will work out for the greater good.

Great post jcw.

Oracle, I completely agree with sticking with that course of action.  Use opportunities but don't push for conversion unless you feel the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart to do so.

We can use opportunities in our daily lives like when someone praises us for something we have accomplished it we can say something like, "The Lord really blessed me with the ability/opportunity/skill to accomplish that."

scripture tells us that all good things are of the Lord so we get something great we can always say, "Guess what!  The Lord blessed me with the new Halo 4 GAME!!!"  Even if you bought the game with your own money at full price it is still a blessing from God...especially in our economy where jobs are hard to come by.


Only a couple times in my life has God ever led me to walk up to someone and say, "Would you like to accept the Jesus as your Lord and personal Savior?" and in each occasion I can currently recall it was a complete stranger.  Sure, He may lead you to do so more often, or never at all.  It may be to a stranger, friend, family member, or no one at all.  However, such should be by God's leading.  Even with God's leading it doesn't mean the answer will be yes.  For all we know it could have been a last opportunity or a series of last opportunities because God knows when their life will end or when their heart will be hardened to such degree they will be unable to accept or hear the truth.

However, giving God credit for our blessings and achievements is not only something we are told to do in scripture, but is a great way to promote our Savior without being pushy in our testimony.  If your friend can't deal with you giving God credit for your blessings/achievements than he obviously doesn't respect you enough to share in your joys.

Just a last thing I'd like to leave you with.

I Corinthians 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

It's not an easy thing to hear or to do, but we are not to have friendships with those of the world.  This does not mean we can't be friendly to them or play football/video games with them.  But it does mean that we need to always maintain a distance that in our minds reminds us that they are acquaintances at best.  We are commanded to be loving toward and friendly toward the unsaved but not to be unequally yoked (married to, close friends with, etcetera).  We are to give them as they have need even to the point of the shirt off our back.  When they do us harm, we are not to retaliate but repay them with kindness.  To live as a true Christian takes real courage and bravery to a degree that just isn't necessary in any other religion.  In essence, it takes a strong individual to live a truly Christian lifestyle.  Thing is, no one is strong enough to do that in and of themselves.  That is why we are not saved by our own works.  Rather, we are saved through the blood of Christ, through His stripes we are healed, and just as King David, King Solomon, Samson, and so many others who came before us...our strength comes from Christ the source of eternal strength...the All Powerful One.