play4fun : But then at the same time is it not possible that the Catholics could be making the same judgements about all the Protestant faiths? Or Lutherans of Baptists? What about Eastern Orthodoxy? If your religion is based on the teachings of the teachings of the Bible, is it not by definition biblical? As for orthodox... how do you define it?

play4fun : Doesn't religion itself defy logic? I don't really mean doing whatever you want thinking or believing it's right (even though it sounds that way) I only mean use your best judgement and make the most fair and reasonable decisions in life. People themselves or a bible can't tell you that you will not go to heaven just by the way a person thinks, I just think it depends on what you do that decides it. I'm no expert on religion itself but I don't think any God would like his people live in fear over something that will happen after they die. Just my opinion though.

Elara : Yes that is possible too. In fact, there has been times that

We need to remember what the motivation the Reformation was. It was to reform and correct the church from certain corruptions of the Church and certain beliefs of the Catholic church. Martin Luther never wanted a schism; the Catholic Church excommunicated him. These beliefs were no small business. These are not small arguments about what church governance should be implemented, or whether to baptize by immersion or sprinkling. These issues concern eternal fates. Questions like how a person gets saved, purgatory, sacramental relation to salvation, traditions compared to the Bible.

There is a reason why the battle cry for the Reformation was "sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gracia, sola deo gloria, Solo Christo" These were up against the beliefs of the Catholic church. Sola scriptura means "by scripture alone", that scripture is the only authority because it is God's Word, which goes against the idea that traditions and Bible are equally authoritative. Sola fide, faith alone, is to go up against the idea that faith in Christ is sufficient for salvation, not by what you do or what anyone does. Sola gracia, by grace alone, is that salvation is not something that one earns, but by God's work alone. Solo Christo, through Christ alone, is to claim that Christ is the only way to salvation. Finally, Sola Deo gloria, Glory to God alone, is to claim that everything that happens is for the glory of God, and priests or the pope, etc.

Even the Bible warns against preaching of a different gospel.
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8)

The question is not who claims what? The question is whether one someone says is biblical and whether it is true or not.

TheOmegaDragon : See, the problem is that everyone deserve to go to hell. The reason is that no one is good enough (perfect enough) to go to heaven. The only way a person can enter heaven is that their sins would be forgiven and cleansed. Only God can do that, that is why Jesus came and died on the cross, and if we don't have the right understanding of Jesus or the Bible, then we would have a right understanding on how to receive salvation. That is why this is important.

And on the contrary, logic is probably one of the strongest allies for Christianity.

play4fun : It looks like a sentence of yours got cut off there, "there has been times that..."?

But yeah, you also have to remember the social movement occurring at the time of the Reformation. The translating of the Bible into languages other than Latin so that non-priests could read it... it took power from the Church. German princes backed the movement in order to try and take power and land from the Church (because they controlled a LOT), then the disgust at the actions of some corrupt bishops and priests (the worst example being Alexander VI, the Borgia Pope). Truly though the reason that Luther's movement succeeded was the involvement of the German princes, because they gave Luther and others like him protection from the Inquisitors that would have otherwise executed him as a heretic like they had so many others in the past. The Council of Trent and the Counter Reformation did a lot to end the corrupt practices that had sparked the Protestant Reformation, but there were differences that could not be healed and that is why the break remained (such as the belief that both faith and works were necessary for salvation, and the taking of the Sacrament).

...sorry to ramble... history major.

play4fun : Makes a lot of sense now that you clarify it that way but what about self-sacrifice? Let's say that someone jumps in front of gunfire to save another life and then they die would they be forgiven for any of the sins they committed? I know it's a silly question to ask but if it is said that everyone deserves to go to hell I don't think a deed like that would be overlooked. Also does even a child (who doesn't know any better) guilty too of not being worthy of going to heaven? I'm just curious since it's obvious you know a lot about it.

Elara : Yeah, I was going to say that some Catholics put the same judgment towards Protestants. The question comes down to which type of theology is true, because this is a primary issue, not a secondary issue. That is also a good mentioning on the Council of Trent, because it is true that the Catholic church end the corrupt practices, but these differences are essential and they can't be united under these differences, not like denominations, who have secondary differences.

TheOmegaDragon : And most people in the world would think that good deeds would earn them heaven. But we are guilty already because all of us has sinned. The Book of James mentions that he who keeps the whole law yet breaks ONE them is GUILTY of all. (James 2:10) Our good deeds don't outweigh the bad, not even self-sacrifice. It doesn't work that way in a worldly justice system (no court would let someone go from a crime just because they did more good deeds than bad), and it doesn't work with God, because God is a just judge (Psalm 7:11) His standard is perfection, and none of us meet that standard (Romans 3:23). This is why the only way to heaven is through Jesus, who is God Himself, died on the cross, paid for our sins, defeated death and offer us eternal life. We receive by believing through faith and not by our deeds. We are justified by faith and by God's grace and mercy.

Your question about what would happen to a child is a complex question. Everyone is guilty from birth, because of original sin (through Adam and Eve), and through actual sin (sins that we do). We are all born in sin (Psalm 51:5). However, I believe that every child has an age of accountability, which is an age which they have the ability to understand the gospel and are capable of responding to it. What age that would be depends on the person, but if a child dies before they can understand and respond to the gospel, I believe that they would go to heaven by God's grace. An example would be from the story of David, where he stopped grieving after his infant son died, and that he will be with him someday.

play4fun : Explain the existence of Limbo then. All Christians, Catholics and Protestants, and even Jews have some mention of it, even if it is not official doctrine... that it is like a waiting area of Hell, and that is where unbaptized children (among others) go after death.

Elara : Actually, can you tell me what is best scriptural support for limbo? I do not recall that protestants believe in limbo, nor do I think that it is biblical at all.

"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment," (Hebrews 9:27)

play4fun : Protestants might know it better as Abraham's Bosom. Luke 16:19–26.

play4fun : What Jesus did is self sacrifice though, isn't it? A child itself also doesn't experience self-awareness until the age of 3 from what I've heard. You said Jesus is God himself, is it quite similar to being an incarnation of God himself?

TheOmegaDragon : "What Jesus did is self sacrifice though, isn't it?" yes...but it is much more than that. Because Jesus is God Himself, He was the only one who can take the punishment of the sins of the whole world and give forgiveness of sins all who receives Him.

"A child itself also doesn't experience self-awareness until the age of 3 from what I've heard."

We are not talking about self-awareness. A person is still in sin either you are a child or an old man. We are talking about a child's ability to understand the gospel and what it means to the child, a sinner. It's different for everyone of what age that they would understand.

God incarnation and Jesus as God are the same thing.

Elara : Yeah I don't think that is used by Protestants as support for limbo. Catholics maybe, but not Protestants. Abraham is in heaven. Did not really know much about this topic of whether Protestants believe in limbo, but it has been mentioned by Jesus that Abraham was in heaven (Matthew 8:11)

play4fun : I am just going off of what numerous internet searches tell me. Something about a cavern next to hell that held the souls of the good that died before Jesus or something. I did not come up with the name.

I don't think you need to even believe in god to be a good person. I personally would not follow a god who is vengeful against those who don't recognize him just because they don't recognize him. I believe god is loving and judges people further than their personal spiritual beliefs, no matter what the good book says. I especially cannot imagine God taking vengeance against an innocent child merely because they are not baptized.

i believe catholics will go to heaven as well as christians as long as they abide by god 's laws