Mabus : "the sins of the father are passed to the son" Ummm...I don't recall that specifically listed in the Bible...although we can see examples of that happening in the Bible (linage of Kings of Israel, etc) and conceptually it would make sense sometimes because if the father leads the family into sin, they would be living under an environment of sin, but it is not a concrete "will happen" type of thing being written in the Bible. (I really don't think it is in the Bible. The only conceptual topic that I found concerning the Bible is "does the son bear the sins of the father?" Anyone else want to help me with this?)

Anyways, that would not be true for pastors, elders, deacons or whoever leads a church. These roles are not seen as fathers, but as servants and shepherds.

And we said so before, everyone sins and is corrupted by sin due to the fall, so it isn't a big deal if it is true. It is still point out the fact that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. (Romans 3:23) Sooo, in a sense, yeah, it is passed on, not a specific sin, but sin in general is the curse that continues on to everyone in all generations.

As for the idol question, I might need a little more info. but if the church is saying that Jesus IS a Caucasian male with a long beard and blue eyes...then that would be a false perception. I don't think anyone would know that specific of a description other than what type of person He is and the specifics of His birth. With that said, I don't think praying while visioning what Jesus is like does not mean idolatry...I think saying that he has to look like this, when the Bible does not say anything about it is wrong. Idolatry of the mind is specifically having a wrong conception of God or putting something other than God your main focus.

BTW, what background are you? and why do you not believe that Jesus is God? I suggest to go to these thread to state what you think: https://www.vizzed.com/vizzedboard/thread.php?id=13923 and https://www.vizzed.com/vizzedboard/thread.php?id=10938

Mabus : Exodus chapter 20 lists the Ten Commandments, verse 4 reads, You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. So making an image of Jesus would be in regard to making an image that is in heaven. Verses 5 & 6 read, You shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

"Visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children"... apart from the teaching of the Bible, it is a fact which observation attests, that, in diseased constitutions, dishonored names, and broken fortunes, the physical consequences of the sins of parents are entailed upon their posterity.

On another note, I agree with what play4fun said, "Anyways, that would not be true for pastors, elders, deacons or whoever leads a church. These roles are not seen as fathers, but as servants and shepherds." The Bible does state, 'To whom much is given, much is required.' As a teacher of a church you're responsible before God for what you teach and for your actions portrayed before the church. If the teacher makes a mistake in one of these regards then the teacher would have consequences from God and the church could be affected, it depends on the person or persons. But if the teacher sins privately or apart from the church then the sin might be inadvertently passed to the church, but not automatically. We each shall give an own account before God and each are responsible for our own sins.

bigNATE : Don't go telling off people like that. This is a forum for debate. If you want to be a jackass, be my guest, but do it somewhere else. Just because he doesn't agree with your beliefs doesn't mean that you get the right to tell him he's wrong. Same goes with what you did with Metal. Seeing your modding performance for what it really is makes me sorely regret my decision for voting for you to be a moderator.

Rasenganfan2 : I would like to defend BigNATE on this...

I'm looking at BigNATE's comments and I don't see anywhere does he try to act like a @%@$#%@ (insert whatever you want here, since I don't want to use the word that you used). Is he a tad bit aggressive? maybe. But I do not see it anywhere that shows he is trying to insulting or attacking someone. All he told Metal is that what he said is not a Christian belief, and that is what the rest of us are saying. Not even close. That goes the same with DarkHyren, that is what Christians believe.

Also the whole point of a debate is to support your side and show the other side why they are wrong. Soooo...yeah, he does have a right to tell him to be wrong. Because this is not a sharing opinion forum, this is a debate forum.

You said that this is a forum for debate. Well, since you are here, let's debate. You're not just here to comment on a moderator's performance, are you?

What do you believe happens after someone dies?

thanks tRIUNE for that clears up a lot





play4fun : now from what tRIUNE posted any image of god should be blasphemy. Even if it is in the old testament it should still be valid such morals as the ten commandments hold true even if the wording is... off in this modern time.

It seems that this Holy Trinity thing is a loophole to get around the fact that God doesn't want you worshiping anything else. If Jesus is God then worshiping Jesus is still worshiping god. That I cannot buy as Jesus is Jesus and God is God. One is omnipotent and all powerful and never ending and one was human/mortal and died on a cross (even if he came back he died).

That aside what you also said was that holding an image of Jesus in your mind while praying (an image that has no factual basis on what Jesus may have looked liked and indeed would be quite odd in the area where he was born) was okay, I want to delve into that deeper. If God understands that while I may hold this image of Jesus in my mind, and prays and it is okay, then why do I need organized religion in the first place. If God knows that I accept Him (I hate using 'Him' because should be God above the weakness of gender) and live my life, whether or not I go to church or read a book should not matter because God is all knowing and knows I've accepted Him truly. What is your view on that?

Mabus : thank you for the questions.

Yeah I do not think that that commandment is invalid in our time. Moral law still stands in all time because God does not change in terms of morals.

That being said, I think if we in our minds what Jesus might look like during the time of his appearance, I don't think it's blasphemy unless if you say HE HAS to look like that. There are people make films about Jesus and they would have to make out what Jesus might look like, but they do not say that Jesus DOES look like it. So when you pray, I think if you are perceiving Jesus, I don't think it's idolatry.

tRIUNE, you got anything to clarify?

Mabus, look at the threads that I have linked to you. I want you to take a look at some of the reasons why Jesus is God, including scriptural references. If you have more questions about that, you ask again here. But I will give one point: would you call Jesus a liar, a lunatic, or Lord? (Because he cannot be just a good moral teacher)

As for your third part, praying has nothing to do with whether you have accepted him or not. I think the statistic is that around 90% of Americans pray to God.

God is all knowing, and he knows that Man's heart is deceitfully wicked (Jeremiah 17:9), so you are not right with God because of all our sins. The good news is that Jesus died on the cross to pay the punishment for your sins, and if you repent and put your trust in Jesus (born again), then you are made right with God.

If we look at the beginning of Bible time, it is not planned to be organized, but because Christians want to worship God, that they gather and form house churches and worship; because the Christians want to know about God and be fed spiritually, that they want to read scripture, God's Word. People see it to be like organized religion because people are going to churches and reading the Bible. The fact is, when we are finally born again, God create in us a new heart with new desires, that things that you once loved that God hated, you now hate, and the things that are evil and sinful that God hates that you used to love, you would hate.

So people go to church not because they are organized to do so, but because they WANT to go to church and worship God.

If you are not born again...you are not right with God.

play4fun : Fair enough. I was calling what he said to DarkHyren him being a jackass. Yeah, this is a debate forum, but flat out saying he's wrong about his personal beliefs is a bit too far. I mean, he could've said "Well, I think that what you said was wrong", but he pretty much said "you're wrong".

Now then. On to what I believe. I'm no Christian, but my beliefs are generally rooted on the Christian foundation. I'm not Religious, but rather spiritual. The difference is that I don't babble about the bible 24/7 (no offense to anybody, I'm just trying to explain the difference) like some people, but I strongly believe in God, angels, and spirits. I believe that where we go after dying depends on various things. You see, I believe life is a test. We pass, we go to Heaven. We fail, we gotta take it again. I also believe Earth is Hell. Evil always seems to get away. Innocent people who have never done anything terrible die brutal deaths. I also don't believe in 1 source of ultimate evil. There probably was, at some point. I think that said source has since split into multiple sources of lesser evil.

Mabus: You know, it's interesting that for what's written in the Bible, God never chose to reveal to us what Jesus looked like. At least one of the apostles could have given us a physical description of Him, right? There's not a single physical description of Him in the Bible except the one in the book of Revelation, which is a symbolic depiction of Jesus with hair like wool and eyes like flaming fire. I think I recall somewhere in the Bible that Jesus had a beard, but don't quote me on that.

The greatest artists throughout history have tried to portray how Jesus might have appeared, but they're all misdirected. God didn't give us a picture because He knew our tendency to gravitate towards idols, pictures, and things instead of the true and living God. There's something in us that wants tangible objects that we can touch. If we can't touch it, we then make some kind of image and imagine it represents God. Soon enough we're bowing before the representation of Him--that looks alot like idolatry to me.

Well we don't have any real descriptions of the physical Jesus. But we can still see Him, well not physically. If God were to roll away the heavens right now, poke His face through and say, "Hello, how are you? I'm God," no doubt we would all drop dead on the spot, it would be overwhelming. But in a real sense we can see Jesus. The apostle John related this to us when he said, "That which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full" (1 John 1:3-4). John's wording in the original Greek text, "that which we have seen," could be rendered literally, "what we still see in our mind's eye." Well, personally I don't see imagining in you mind what Jesus looks like as idolatry so to speak. But it's really a false depiction because it's just speculative.

Well what I'm saying is John said, "Yes, we had the privilege of walking and talking with Jesus, but you can know Him in a personal way just as we did." All of history hinges on Jesus Christ. Who is He? What did He do? Why did He come? How should we respond to Him? What we believe about Jesus not only has a profound effect on the way we live today, but as the Christian Bible states, seals forever our eternal destiny. Thus it is crucial that we have a clear answer to the question Jesus Himself asked in Matthew 16:15, "Who do you say that I am?" Well to help us answer this question, the Bible says in Philippians 2:5-8, Let this be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.





*Well I edited it because I originally misspelled Mabus, tried to fix it and logically it still didn't highlight in the edit.

Rasenganfan2 : I will not criticize you, but may I ask for the basis of your spirituality?

play4fun : Why is it so needed to know what I believe in. Is it the duty of Christians to save the souls of non-believers? Is that why you need to know where I stand in my views. I see in you a resolve that nothing anyone says will have you question because you have all the answer you want in the Bible. So I am going to stop posing questions as it is like trying to debate with a man who has no ears. Your way of looking at the Bible and Christianity seems quite different than others, maybe you are Catholic and believe that you are not Christian? I have heard this quite a few times.

That last thing I will pose to everyone here is, what good is having faith in something if you never question in? For without questioning your faith you are truly blind. Why do I say this because if you truly believe, that belief will only be made greater but if you doubt and slip you'll then know that you never truly did believe but were only lying to yourself.

Hoochman : Oh, you don't have to say you won't critize me, just don't do it. Now then, would you please explain your question better? I don't quite get it.

Mabus : The reason that I want to know your background of what your beliefs are is because I don't want to come of judging what you really believe in or who you are without knowing either how you are raised or any experiences that you encountered. If I just came up and said to you that reincarnation does not happen....when you are not a hindu, it would sound rather offensive, because I would be insinuating that you have that background when you don't. Sometimes if the person is a Christian but has a small misunderstanding of a certain doctrine, and if I immediately assumed that the person is not a believer, then it would be offensive. It would be judging through appearance and not by what they really believe. I ask that so that I can avoid that and so that we can see all sides of the picture.

"Is it the duty of Christians to save the souls of non-believers?" Actually this is another purpose for the thread: it is to share the gospel to those who may not have heard it complete or make sense to them. If Christians love God and love others, they would be willing to tell the truth to others, about the truth of the gospel. That is the Great Commission that Jesus gave in Matthew 28.

And I don't have all the answers, it would be arrogant to say so, and there are some things that God does not choose to reveal through God's Word. But a Christian understands that there is a source of authority, and that is from God's Word, the Bible. So if you have questions about Christianity, our answers would have to be based from the Bible, so that we would not be making stuff up for you.

"Your way of looking at the Bible and Christianity seems quite different than others,"
That is kinda sad to hear that, but I'm kinda not surprised...American Christianity has been affected by comfort, soft view of the gospel, lack of thought (emphasis on truth) and lack of action (showing God's love to nonbelievers) Americanized churches focus so much on getting more people to come to church, that they try to soften the gospel so that it would sound appealing to the public, but we should focus on giving the whole truth, and the decision of whether you believe in it or not is yours, but we need to at least be clear what Christians really believe.

Don't worry, I think all of us are commenting here with an open mind, but if there is something that is not true, we should comment about it. This is a place for you to ask questions about Christianity, and we are just answering it. The owner approves of this thread.

One more thing, and I think I can say this for every Christian who has been answering questions here. At some point, we all question our faith...some more than others, some happen younger than others, and some might struggle more than others. But I know that those who are truly saved and truly understand the gospel, and believe and trust in God, then even in doubt, they will come to Him and hold on to Him. And Christians know this, that God's Word would not disappoint.

This thread's purpose is share the truth of the gospel to those who read it, and to answer questions that have been answered through the study of the Bible. This is a team effort by all Christians to answer these questions to those who want seek the truth. This is also a team effort because if one of us said something wrong, other Christians can peer review it and show the error through scripture.

So if you seek truth, ask a question.

"'What is truth?' Pilate asked." (John 18:38)

This is what Jesus said a few chapters before it.

"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the TRUTH and the life." (John 14:6a)

Mabus says: "That last thing I will pose to everyone here is, what good is having faith in something if you never question in? For without questioning your faith you are truly blind. Why do I say this because if you truly believe, that belief will only be made greater but if you doubt and slip you'll then know that you never truly did believe but were only lying to yourself."

Every Christian has had to make the choice to receive Christ, for some it's an instantaneous decision and for some it requires extra questioning. But all have had to question the faith in the first place before they accepted it. As Christians, we believe that when we did accept it that it was a response to the actual calling of God. I say this because our conscience bears witness to our minds in regard to His calling, which is hearing His Word from the Bible, this is what we call faith; the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).

Some had to struggle with their conscience more than others, and at some point in the Christian's life he or she is going to question if they are really saved by God. But since they received Christ by hearing God's Word in the first place, but have doubts about it, the solution is to go back to the Word. The Word says this, He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (I John 5:10-13).

If you have enough faith in the first place to receive Christ, then you have the faith required to be reassured of it. Our faith has its resolve because we have the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God... (Romans 8:15,16). Some people wonder if their faith is strong enough to save them. These people miss the point. It is Jesus Christ who saves, not our feelings or actions, and He is strong enough to save us no matter how weak our faith is. Jesus offers us salvation as a gift, because He loves us, not because we have earned it through our powerful faith. What then is the role of faith--for the Christian, faith is believing and trusting in Jesus Christ; reaching out to accept His unmerited gift of salvation. Because God loves us, this faith is effective whether it is great or small because it exalts what God has done, not what we have done.
*Well in other words it's based on our relationship with God, not our performance for God.

Rasenganfan2 : Well, what I mean is where do you get your spirituality if you are no Christian and do not read the bible and are not religious. Would you be a non religious Christian?

Rasenganfan2 says "On to what I believe. I'm no Christian, but my beliefs are generally rooted on the Christian foundation. I'm not religious, but rather spiritual."

Well this statement is the general idea of Christianity. But what matters is if you have a right relationship with God. Here's what the Bible says in regard to this, Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does (James 1:21-25). Believers who hear the word of God must receive it with a teachable spirit, applying it to their daily lives. To hear and not obey is to be deceived. Thus it is important to know what the Bible says, but it is much more important to obey it.

Now on to the statement of "I'm not religious, but rather spiritual," this makes sense because Christianity isn't a religion. In fact, it's the opposite of religion. Religion tells us mankind can reach God through works. Christianity tells us mankind can never reach God thorough works. Religion tells us of man's endeavor to reach God. Christianity is God reaching down to us. "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16). One day the people asked Jesus, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent (John 6:28-29). Our works can't bring us into a relationship with God.

Thus Christians aren't religious, but rather spiritual, if indeed they have a right relationship with God by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and trust in God's provision for their sin through faith in Jesus *God's provision, through faith in Jesus, for their sin. If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9). If we believe in this forgiveness then we should have the desire to walk in the light as He is in the light which is repentance, and humility before Him.

*Well in other words the repentance and humility isn't what saves us, but if we are saved then it should be our desire to have repentance and humility before Him.

*Raseganfan2 also says, "Evil always seems to get away."
Why does God allow evil?

Hoochman : Well that's a good question. I wouldn't be a non-religious Christian, since my beliefs borrow from many other religions and my own beliefs. I believe in spirits who still roam the earth, angels, God, Jesus, heaven, the whole thing. I just believe in it in my own special, unique way.

Anyway, I'm terrible at this kinda stuff, so... I'm just gonna go...

Rasenganfan2 : It's ok. We can still talk about it.

Anyways, you said before that you believe earth is hell...so I was wondering where you think Hitler would go when he dies?

Also, with you believing in something in your own special way, do you think there is a possibility that you could be wrong about your beliefs?

play4fun : Actually, I was trying to get out of this thread, but...

Well, I guess Hitler would be reincarnated. Who knows, maybe God had special plans for Hitlet after all the people he killed in cold blood. Sure, he himself may not have directly killed people, but he killed thousands indirectly.

What's to say that Christianity is right, either? Same goes with Judiaism, or however it's spelled, Hinduism, Budaism, etc.. Nothing. So, in that since, who's to say I'm wrong either? I guess we'll find out what's true and what's false when we pass, won't we? This isn't to say that I'm right, but just to say that we all may be wrong.

Rasenganfan2 : Actually, you can. You look at the claims from these religions, and if you research these claims, you can make a decision by yourself on whichever one is right or not. That is why I asked you about that worldview that you have. Christianity made a claim that they are right, so you should look into the claims and see if they are true or not.

What is really important is knowing what isn't the message of Christianity so that you could not be easily deceived.