geeogree : what don't I understand? i don't get it...
DarkHyren : Alright, well, it's nice that you aren't directing that at me. However, most religions do have the same, in your words, "blackmailing" concept. I personally don't think it's blackmailing at all, and I don't see why you have to call it religious persecution. If you become Christian, you're encouraged to be a good person, and do all those good moral rights.
I just want to ask you one more thing. What if what I said was true? If that was true, then would you care at all? I just want to know. Because the way you talk about it reminds me of this analogy.
Imagine this, let's say, I say "I don't believe in traffic." Then I walk into the middle of a busy highway. What would probably happen? I'd probably get mauled and die. My point is, what you say, "Sure, your belief might tell you they are, but that's your opinion. Doesn't make it fact."... what if it is fact? If it isn't fact, then it wouldn't really impact me that much, now would it? But if it was, you'd probably regret it. Just because you don't believe in something, doesn't make it not fact.
I'm sorry if I seem like I'm trying to push it on you or something. But you obviously don't like the idea of eternal damnation, so I'm just backing up why I think it's true. And I'm not telling you this to condemn you or something.
Metal_25 : Yeah, I truly don't believe that Universal Reconciliation would be true. It just gives people false hope, like you said. God is a merciful god already. He loves us, or else why would He have had Jesus die on the cross in the first place?

really? Condemning people to hell because they don't believe in Jesus is love?

geeogree : Again...read my post first

play4fun : I read your post.

If I never knew Jesus existed then I'm going to hell.... that's not the God I believe in.

And why would God make humans just to send them to eternal damnation for not believing in him? That's ridiculous.

geeogree : "If I never knew Jesus existed then I'm going to hell.... that's not the God I believe in."

Two things,

1. It does not matter what you believe or not. What matters is whether what you believe is true or not.

2. You are assuming the reason that people are going to hell because they don't believe in God. That's not correct. The reason that people go to hell is because they sinned against God, and since God is just, he must punish those who sinned against him, or else it would go against His justice.

"And why would God make humans just to send them to eternal damnation for not believing in him? That's ridiculous."

Other than again assuming that the reason that people go to hell because they don't believe in God. Humans are made for a purpose and plan in this world. Man sinned against God by doing what their own desires support and it would seem to go against God's plan, but God already foresaw this and already had Jesus in His plan, and make His love more amazing by demonstrating to the world God's sacrifice for them. You should know John 3:16. That should already tell you that.

"But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed." (Isaiah 53:5)

He did that for YOU and EVERYONE ELSE.

If you read (James 2:19), belief in the existence of God does not mean that you would go to heaven. "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

mdynasty926 : See alot of what you say makes no sense.
You say "he loves us" yet if we don't believe in him we will be sent to hell?
That isn't love, it really isn't. Love would be coming to people that dont believe and saying "see, I'm real", not letting others talk for him and giving them every chance.

I'm sorry, but I just dont buy it.
That's like telling someone their child is dead. Alot of people wont believe it unless they see the body.

If what you said was true would I care?
Not unless god itself came down and had a heart to heart with me.
And even then, I would remain sceptical, because there are alot of scientific explanations for things.
Maybe I was dreaming, maybe I was drugged. Who knows.
So no, I would be the same as I am now. I wouldn't pray, I wouldnt go to church.
I would be me.

You talk about if it was fact, would I regret?
Depends. Would I have a face to face meet and greet beforehand?
If so I'd say "oh, so you're real are you? Well ok then"
If I was sent to hell, either after the meeting or without any meeting, I would hate this god person with every bit of myself I had left.
Not regret though. Why? Because someone that supposedly loves you shouln't want you to suffer.

I know it's not your fault you think that way.
I'm just sorry that you have been lead to think such evil thoughts about others because of what is written in a book

DarkHyren : Well, the reason we go to hell is because we sinned against God. In order to have salvation from Hell, we have to trust in Him and repent our sins. I'm sure you've heard of Adam and Eve.
I guess I can't really argue about it anymore. It's not like you'll listen anyway .
And I'm sorry that you think these thoughts are evil

DarkHyren : Let me ask you something? What would you think of God if He allowed murderers, rapists, theieves, you name it, into heaven?

If God loves those that are reconciled for their sins because they trusted God and surrendered to Him in repentance, would He allow those who did not come to God repenting to Him and relying on God to forgive them into heaven with those that are forgiven?

play4fun : wow. listen to you. Do you realise what you said?
I said why should good people that dont believe be punished.
There's a huge difference between rapists/murderers/theives and a non beliver.
Seriously, you just compared me to them. That was like...
Yeah, see this is why I thnk religion is a load of bull, it makes people say such evil nasty things like that

DarkHyren : If you really care about this issue, you would read this long post.

Actually no, if you read my post from the first page, I stated that there is no such thing as a good person. No one can meet up to God's standard of perfection, including myself. The Bible makes that very clear. All of us have to give an account to what we have done, and by relying on our own goodness, we reject God's offer of forgiving their sins unconditionally.

You ask a true Christian whether they are a good person or not, they will say no, why, because they know they by themselves cannot meet up to God's standard of good, which is morally perfect (In fact, dictionaries define a good person to be of "moral excellence")

If I look at the law and compared it to myself in the Bible. This would be what God would see me: A lying, thieving, adulterer and murderer-at-heart who dishonored his parents. A little harsh, you say? Not really. Let's look at the ten commandments and compare: I've lied and I've stolen. I have never cheated anyone or murdered anyone. However, Jesus said that whoever looked at a woman with lust has already committed adultery in his own heart. He also said that if you hated someone or called someone a fool, you are a murderer at heart and is subjected to judgment. I have done those things. And obviously I am not a perfect child, I have been disobedient to my parents many times in my life. So from all of this, I should have that title. With that title, I should be going to hell.

However, because God loves us soooooo much, Jesus Christ, God Himself, came to the earth and paid the punishment for our sins, and if we rely on Him through repentance and faith to to offer eternal life. The question is whether we choose to trust in Him or not, so in a sense, there is a choice for you, and if we refuse it, there is no excuse or blame that can be given to God, because the fact that you are living shows how merciful God is. Every day is a second chance.

And here's the thing about this gift. When receiving it, He's not going to see us as enemies of God anymore. When we sin, we are enemies of God, or what the Bible calls, "child of wrath." We were not children of God. Through receiving God's Grace, He forgives our sin and since His death was a sacrifice for our sins, our reception of His Grace means that he takes away that nasty title of mine, and instead of a "child of wrath," we are deemed "children of God."

So yeah, those who do not turn to God and trust in Him, would have to continue to be responsible for what they have done against Him, thus having that title. But those who become followers of Christ would be redeemed of what they have done. Since Jesus already paid for what they deserve, we are not seen by God as sinners who are sentenced to eternal death anymore, but reconciled as children of God and to be with Him in heaven. They will be transformed, and instead of loving the things that God hates, they would love the things that God loves, and hate the things that God hates, which includes sin.

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"


Final analogy if that does not make sense:

Imagine being in court, and you have committed a serious crime. The fine is sooo high, that you can't pay it with what you have. The judge is about to pass sentence, when someone you don't even know, walked in, and told the judge: "Judge, I love this person, and even thought I did not commit the crime, I am willing to sell everything that I have, and pay his overwhelming fine." The judge still sees you guilty, that has not changed, but he also sees something else. He sees that the fine has been paid. And because of that, you are free to go. What would your response be for the person? Highest Gratitude and would be willing to do anything for that person.

DarkHyren : here, let me explain it to you so that we can all understand.

If you don't believe in Jesus you go to hell.

That's basically all you guys have said this entire thread.

geeogree : Well if that were all true, I could have just summed it up like how you did. It is not that simple of an issue.

Plain and simple I'll tell you how it is:

Sheep go to heaven (People who follow others and believe what they say).
Goats go to hell (People who dont follow others and get treated bad for it).

That is odd cause here on earth it seems like hell when you follow others doesn't it?

-Follow your corporate job for years and get fed the end of a stick
-Follow leaders of this country and get lied to every step of the way
-Follow the court of law by putting your hand on a bible and swearing against your testimony and they will throw you in jail either way even if your christian or not
-Follow marriage and be deceived by your soulmate to screw you for have of everything you own
-Follow the system and pretend to be forgiven for sins while the system itself is a complete scam and will screw you bad whether your sorry or not
-Follow friends into sex,drugs,rock and roll.
-Follow people who we don't even know exist and take their word over your own
-Follow the tax code when there is no law that says you have to, but get punished for it if you dont.

I'm sure there's lots more to add to the list. I think the real system is backwards, honestly who would worship a guy who has been nailed to a cross and have that as a logo? That is sickening, who also would eat bread and wine and call it christs skin and blood.

No offense to christians (I am one I guess cause I got baptized when I was a child) but there is FARRRRRRRRRRRRR more deception going on then you realize. Being a sheep is not a good thing, especially on earth. You follow the system and you will get torn to shreds. Now its ok to follow religion but people should really pause for a moment and notice that anything that is popular and that lots of people follow usually leads them to a rabbit hole of hell And since the bible is mass media you can consider that the same as following the news or your leaders the same way. They will lead you to no where people!

Read the bible as you want, just saying be cautions of following it in the masses. Following something in the masses is usually a trick in deception and brainwashing. Not saying bible or christianity is bull what I'm saying is be your own believer and dont believe or follow what others say just cause the bible said so or because a christian friend said it.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelation 21:8; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) - I find it funny that practitioners of magic arts are sent to hell when for an outsider looking in Christianity is nothing but a magic art itself.

What geeo said is true play4fun. you've basically said that same thing through the entire thread. In my opinion God (if there is one) is not going to send good (which doesn't translate to perfect and is actually a debatable topic) people to hell just because they don't believe or have ever heard of him (which I find laughable call God a him). Just doesn't make sense to me. You have to keep in mind that the bible was written by man and I highly don't it hasn't been changed from it's original form throughout the centuries. Most of this was more than likely just scare tactic for getting people to join the religion, the same technique that some companies and politicians use today.

"Most of this was more than likely just scare tactic for getting people to join the religion"

I actually doubt this is true. I think the people who wrote what they did really believed it. I doubt most of the actual writers benefited from what they wrote. In fact if you look at the people who did the writing, most of them were killed by the political or religious leaders of the day. If they weren't killed they were at least persecuted.

But it is true that the Bible has been used by MANY people since it was written to control people. Just look at the history of the Catholic Church and you have more than enough evidence.

geeogree : I wasn't saying that they thought they would get something out of this, more like they thought they would help people by scarring them into what they thought was right.

oh, well, I still don't think that's true. But neither of us can prove what the writers motivation for writing the way they did.

All I can say is that fear is the wrong motive for following the rules. You're better off telling people of the benefits of "being good" rather than scaring them away from being bad. If that makes sense.

I think you're absolutely right with both of those statements. It's one of the reasons why my religious views aren't set in stone and change every so often.

Actually fear mongering is a perfect way to get people to do stuff and follow orders. Example, I will call the cops on you if you dont hand over my money. Or pay your insurance or get your drivers license suspended. Or you will go to hell if you have sex before getting married.

When you developing mass media such as the bible you need to make it stand out. If there was no fear mongering in the bible and no mention of negatives you think people would actually be following it? The whole thing is based on fear and sins. People who only listen to positives are the people who get scammed bad by stuff like "FREE IPOD IF YOU TAKE QUIZ".

Lets take a look at advertising as see how its done.

(Positive)
Geico: Could save you 15% or more on car insurance!

(Positive)
Axe: Buy our product and girls will wanna fk you!

then you got

(Negative)
ClickItorTicket: Wear seat belt or we will give you ticket!

(Negative)
Truth : In the U.S., about 50,000 people die each year from secondhand smoke-related diseases.

The solution is to ignore both That is why I don't follow religion. Your better of thinking for yourself then letting others trick you into right or wrong.

Wo, wo! This thread got out of hand man! Honestly, I'm a Christian. But I can't in 100% certainty prove to anyone that God or Jesus is real. I would also like to say most Christians nowadays are hypocrites. But I like to go with the winning odds. If I am right about God, then I go to heaven while nonbelievers go to hell. If I'm wrong, nothing happens to me. I really don't care what people believe because I can never physically prove Christianity. But it's the same for evolutionists that say evolution is a theory even though it's not proven. Because none of them can go back billions of years and watch and record species changing. Also if their was no God, there would be no sense of morals. Because morals can in circumstances get in the way of survival of the fittest.