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Asperger's(Warning: Pushing my agenda)

 

09-22-13 02:13 AM
MoonCanvas is Offline
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I may not think Asperger's is real, but I can explain its mechanics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGciSThF3N4
I may not think Asperger's is real, but I can explain its mechanics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGciSThF3N4
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09-22-13 06:29 AM
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Not only does this post/ video seem a little insensitive, but I hardly see where you've proven anything.  One point is that not ALL light is artificial at this point.  To say that nocturnal tendencies are due to artificial light seems a little short sighted.

Also, if Asperger's syndrome is simply the way very intelligent people act, then why don't ALL intelligent people act that way?  Why do kids with Asperger's syndrome have trouble with some very ordinary things despite their intelligence?  Where is the science that proves your theory?

Saying "I believe these common characteristics debunk this myth" seems like a rather silly thing to do.  It's like me saying "Dinosaurs nearly all had scaly skin, but only a small portion of the animal kingdom today has scaly skin.  Due to these characteristics, I have successfully debunked the theory of evolution."

It just doesn't work that way. With all due respect, can you provide us with some evidence or research you have done that leads to your belief. I know the end of your video flashes a few articles, but we can't tell what those articles are, what they say, where they came from, or if they're even reliable resources.

I know this isn't a debate thread, but it just seems a little counter-intuitive to push something like this out into the Web Splurge area with the idea of 'pushing your agenda', and not even backing it up....
Not only does this post/ video seem a little insensitive, but I hardly see where you've proven anything.  One point is that not ALL light is artificial at this point.  To say that nocturnal tendencies are due to artificial light seems a little short sighted.

Also, if Asperger's syndrome is simply the way very intelligent people act, then why don't ALL intelligent people act that way?  Why do kids with Asperger's syndrome have trouble with some very ordinary things despite their intelligence?  Where is the science that proves your theory?

Saying "I believe these common characteristics debunk this myth" seems like a rather silly thing to do.  It's like me saying "Dinosaurs nearly all had scaly skin, but only a small portion of the animal kingdom today has scaly skin.  Due to these characteristics, I have successfully debunked the theory of evolution."

It just doesn't work that way. With all due respect, can you provide us with some evidence or research you have done that leads to your belief. I know the end of your video flashes a few articles, but we can't tell what those articles are, what they say, where they came from, or if they're even reliable resources.

I know this isn't a debate thread, but it just seems a little counter-intuitive to push something like this out into the Web Splurge area with the idea of 'pushing your agenda', and not even backing it up....
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09-22-13 07:01 AM
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I know you mentioned the articles weren't good enough evidence(for you) but I may as well leave them here for everyone to visit. I also think it's a common trick for others to try relating autism-skepticism to religiousness in general, there's a few hints you tried doing so to me. I'm not upset about it though, I'm partially here to say autism-skepticism can be a rational view in spite of all the dumb people who 'share' the same stance.

This is story time: I know you know I have different reasons for thinking stuff like Asperger's ain't real(I think it's a natural state of mind and thus invalid as a disorder, and really through technical means), but I'd like to separate myself from all the others claiming "autistics are just faking" which is the dumbest way to say autism isn't real.

I and a few acquaintances were diagnosed with autism but dealt with the stigma associated with it, then later(individually) came to our conclusions. Some were harsh. I was told my entire life I couldn't do much of anything, and I believed it, it was when I quit adhering to the diagnosis that my shackles were finally released(in all fairness to you, this could be possible even IF autism is real, cause you know, stigma). Others are still being thought of to have no future, people who are highly intelligent and only socially outcast for their own social preferences. They're presumed by family members to have no future, and probably spend their entire lifes living off their family because they were never given a chance.

The point I'm getting at, is... Well, nothing. Just felt like rambling. But I'll just say this; there are plenty of people diagnosed with high-functioning autism who are saying autism doesn't exist, and the ones who do say it exists are in full support of the neurodiversity movement which aims to remove autism from the DSM. It is inevitable autism will no longer be recognized as a disorder.

Actually I think I just wasted your time because I'm being chatty and pointless. Here are below articles for others who didn't read these yet. Premise; intelligence causes novel thinking and social awkwardness.

Intelligence & Evolutionarily Novel Traits:
http://phys.org/news186236813.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm
http://findmuck.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/the-intelligent-are-evolutionary-deviants/

Intelligence & Social Awkwardness:
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Correlation_between_intelligence_and_social_deficiency
I know you mentioned the articles weren't good enough evidence(for you) but I may as well leave them here for everyone to visit. I also think it's a common trick for others to try relating autism-skepticism to religiousness in general, there's a few hints you tried doing so to me. I'm not upset about it though, I'm partially here to say autism-skepticism can be a rational view in spite of all the dumb people who 'share' the same stance.

This is story time: I know you know I have different reasons for thinking stuff like Asperger's ain't real(I think it's a natural state of mind and thus invalid as a disorder, and really through technical means), but I'd like to separate myself from all the others claiming "autistics are just faking" which is the dumbest way to say autism isn't real.

I and a few acquaintances were diagnosed with autism but dealt with the stigma associated with it, then later(individually) came to our conclusions. Some were harsh. I was told my entire life I couldn't do much of anything, and I believed it, it was when I quit adhering to the diagnosis that my shackles were finally released(in all fairness to you, this could be possible even IF autism is real, cause you know, stigma). Others are still being thought of to have no future, people who are highly intelligent and only socially outcast for their own social preferences. They're presumed by family members to have no future, and probably spend their entire lifes living off their family because they were never given a chance.

The point I'm getting at, is... Well, nothing. Just felt like rambling. But I'll just say this; there are plenty of people diagnosed with high-functioning autism who are saying autism doesn't exist, and the ones who do say it exists are in full support of the neurodiversity movement which aims to remove autism from the DSM. It is inevitable autism will no longer be recognized as a disorder.

Actually I think I just wasted your time because I'm being chatty and pointless. Here are below articles for others who didn't read these yet. Premise; intelligence causes novel thinking and social awkwardness.

Intelligence & Evolutionarily Novel Traits:
http://phys.org/news186236813.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm
http://findmuck.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/the-intelligent-are-evolutionary-deviants/

Intelligence & Social Awkwardness:
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Correlation_between_intelligence_and_social_deficiency
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09-22-13 07:12 AM
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You didn't waste my time, but you did make a lot of assumptions that weren't true.

First, I didn't say the articles weren't good enough. I said that the way you provided them wasn't all that useful. I said we couldn't tell what those articles were because of the way you just flashed tiny screenshots of them at the end of your video. Never did I say they weren't good articles.

Also, I never related anything to religiousness at all. I have no idea where you even got that from, unless you're referring to my example of evolution. Even then, that has nothing to do with religion. I simply picked something commonly debated about... something many people take as fact or myth... and tried to provide an example of why your video wasn't very convincing.

It's also not very nice to use the word 'dumb' when describing your opposition, as it shows a sense of pride and closed-mindedness.

I wasn't trying to attack you or argue in any way. There are several people on vizzed that have been diagnosed with Asperger's, and my little brother also has asperger's we believe. I was genuinely interested in WHY you felt it is not a true disorder. I never said you couldn't convince me otherwise. I personally believe ADD and ADHD might possibly be a fabrication, but it doesn't mean I'm correct. I can't fully stand on that personal belief without many facts to back it up, now can I?

I'm very glad you never let other people's opinions set you back. You never should. Thousands of people get told that they can't do something because of this or that... and personally, I believe 'you can't' is something that should NEVER be said. There are too many amazing people that prove such statements wrong, and to tell someone 'you can't' or 'you'll never' is hugely demeaning to those successes.

Thank you for the articles. I'll look at them later if they relate to your standpoint.
You didn't waste my time, but you did make a lot of assumptions that weren't true.

First, I didn't say the articles weren't good enough. I said that the way you provided them wasn't all that useful. I said we couldn't tell what those articles were because of the way you just flashed tiny screenshots of them at the end of your video. Never did I say they weren't good articles.

Also, I never related anything to religiousness at all. I have no idea where you even got that from, unless you're referring to my example of evolution. Even then, that has nothing to do with religion. I simply picked something commonly debated about... something many people take as fact or myth... and tried to provide an example of why your video wasn't very convincing.

It's also not very nice to use the word 'dumb' when describing your opposition, as it shows a sense of pride and closed-mindedness.

I wasn't trying to attack you or argue in any way. There are several people on vizzed that have been diagnosed with Asperger's, and my little brother also has asperger's we believe. I was genuinely interested in WHY you felt it is not a true disorder. I never said you couldn't convince me otherwise. I personally believe ADD and ADHD might possibly be a fabrication, but it doesn't mean I'm correct. I can't fully stand on that personal belief without many facts to back it up, now can I?

I'm very glad you never let other people's opinions set you back. You never should. Thousands of people get told that they can't do something because of this or that... and personally, I believe 'you can't' is something that should NEVER be said. There are too many amazing people that prove such statements wrong, and to tell someone 'you can't' or 'you'll never' is hugely demeaning to those successes.

Thank you for the articles. I'll look at them later if they relate to your standpoint.
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(edited by Singelli on 09-22-13 07:12 AM)    

09-22-13 07:19 AM
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I'm also stepping away from a debate, as this specific thread is not meant to be a debate. When I win arguments, people's feelings get hurt, and we don't need it in this thread too. Go here to debate: http://www.thescienceforum.com/health-medicine/36911-autism-discrimination.html

It is nearly 500 posts long, if you wish to challenge me then you can. Just remember I am not entirely entitled to hold true to my stance, as I will say autism exists if you can convince me. Seeing as how I have switched from previously thinking it exists(younger years) to not thinking it exists.

Update- I never read your last post, this recent post(posted before I got a chance to read your new post) was mainly meant for others in general. I have to say, when I said "dumb" I didn't refer to people who say autism is real, I referred to the gay-bashing bible thumpers who claim autistics are fakers. It's still bigoted of me but whatever, nobody likes gay-bashers anyways.
I'm also stepping away from a debate, as this specific thread is not meant to be a debate. When I win arguments, people's feelings get hurt, and we don't need it in this thread too. Go here to debate: http://www.thescienceforum.com/health-medicine/36911-autism-discrimination.html

It is nearly 500 posts long, if you wish to challenge me then you can. Just remember I am not entirely entitled to hold true to my stance, as I will say autism exists if you can convince me. Seeing as how I have switched from previously thinking it exists(younger years) to not thinking it exists.

Update- I never read your last post, this recent post(posted before I got a chance to read your new post) was mainly meant for others in general. I have to say, when I said "dumb" I didn't refer to people who say autism is real, I referred to the gay-bashing bible thumpers who claim autistics are fakers. It's still bigoted of me but whatever, nobody likes gay-bashers anyways.
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(edited by MoonCanvas on 09-22-13 07:28 AM)    

09-22-13 08:50 AM
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My question is how many people have you personally worked with with Aspergers? I worked in a mental health center for nearly 5 years, Aspergers being one of the disorders I have worked with. If you genuinely believe it is no different than high intelligence, you clearly have not seen more than a few non severe examples. But I can understand why people would say Aspergers is not actually a real thing because so little is known about it. But you really think Autism is not real? That is a debate you cannot win because that is not just psychology science, that is neurology. 

The ticks that you commonly see on the different autism spectrum of autism is only a symptom. You can see the cause of those results. It is a synapse development disorder. The neurons do not organize and connect normally, resulting in interference with processing information. You say that it is just 'high intelligence'. But what you fail to address is that those with Autism or Aspergers are not overall geniuses. Typically, they have a few things that they are geniuses over. They commonly borderline Sevants, in which they have something specific in which they are a prodigy, but low functioning in almost anything else. 

But you are specifically talking about Aspergers, not autism, so I'll only continue that if you wish.

The fact that you think that Aspergers trait are exactly the same as those with high intelligence are the same (social awkwardness, outspoken, reclusive), you obviously have not been around TRUE Aspergers cases. There are a laundry list of things that happen with Aspergers. It, like autism, is also a hinder on the neuron development that allows information processing. Those symptoms you specified in your video are not even really a part of the psychological diagnosis. First, the high intelligence argument you brought up. Those with aspergers are often high intelligence in specific things, but are often low functioning on most others. Again, they are along the same lines of a Sevant. But when it comes to your more day to day things, they are often severely lacking in capability to learn. I have worked with a case where he knew the latin name for every dinosaur, the time period in which they exist, and any arbitrary detail about all of them. But he could not work out math problems that are 3rd grade level, and he is 13 years old. Aspergers syndrome usually have something as a coping tool. They hone in on it and anything about it just clicks with them like a prodigy. But other things take high level therapy just to get them remotely coherent to the concepts. Their brains literally cannot process the information of other things (even average day to day information).

You specified that their 'social awkwardness' is just the same as a high intelligence person. That is far from it. The problem is that you just define it as social awkwardness, and that is just a massively broad term that applies to anyone who isn't exactly social. But try looking closer at the specifics, and there are differences. Those with autism are often incapable of showing empathy. That isn't just a matter of not being able to talk to people without upsetting them. That is literally unable to comprehend the idea that other people have emotional responses to things. That is why they often do not even realize people are making fun of them or teasing them unless they are using specific words with bad meaning. They take things severely to the literal sense. The ability to apply emotional context to words is severely hindered, even incapable for some, by the processing neurons of the brain. Sarcasm is wasted on them. They can't detect sincerity because they are unable to process emotional context.

Again, your problem is that you are just seeing them as socially awkward. There is a difference between just not being able to relate to others because of interests or comfortable behaviors. This is the inability to show empathy because your brain is unable to process emotional context, making literal words the only thing that makes sense. Everything is taken in the literal sense because it is the only way your brain can process information.

You say outspoken is the same thing as what those with autism deal with. But imagine for a second, obsessive compulsive disorder. Many just think that being a germ free neat freak is OCD, but that is not the case. That is just a common characteristic. Not all with OCD are neat freaks. OCD means that they have compulsive rituals that they obsess over. They cannot focus or function if their ritual is not done. I worked with one kid who had to repeat almost all of his movements 5 times. He would flip off lights 5 times, slip his shoes off and on 5 time, etc. If he had to clear his throat, he had to do it an extra 4 times. If he stubbed his toe, he had to do it 4 more times. If you kept him from completing his compulsive ritual, he could not function because that is all he could think about. He had to complete it to move on. Autism is somewhat similar in that. They have very fixed focus on things. They aren't the same thing as rituals (all the time) but obsessive compulsions, very much. Once they have an expectation, that expectation must be fulfilled. Otherwise, they become obsessive and incapable of processing something different happening. You might see it as outspoken when they begin to make a scene about something that they disagree with. But the difference is simply outspoken is due to being highly opinionated. In Autism, they are not capable of handling something unexpected. Even something small that should not be significant in their life for that day can bring their world crashing down on them. That small detail MUST happen or they cannot move on with the next thing. 

Now, this is getting lengthy, and I can go all day with this. So I'll cut this here and move on to you specifically. You might take offense when I said you have not worked with people with true autism. You mentioned you and some others you knew were diagnosed with autism. You were able to overcome the stipulation by making the conscious decision to not adhere to the common stigma of it. If that is the case, you are either on the more than capable high functioning end of the spectrum or were misdiagnoses. Working in the mental health center, I have seen true cases. But I have also seen the truth that autism is one of the most over-diagnosed thing I have seen. It has become a cop out diagnosis. Parents think that because their kid has some unusual or awkward tendencies, there must be something wrong with them. So they GET them diagnosed. Many are more than willing to say "Oh, this kid fits some of the small characteristics that kids with autism show, so he/she must have autism". That just means they have another client to bill. It is a money game, and it is sickening. 

This over-diagnosing has caused this idea that it is all fake, and it is just horrible for those who truly need the care. You were not one of those cases. You were probably one of the over-diagnosed people. I have seen too many kids diagnosed who shouldn't have been. Many were just kids who needed more active parents (not saying that is your case, just to clarify that). But it shed bad light on the diagnosis for those who have the true condition that cannot be overcome like you did.

What you overcame was stigma and stipulation, not neurological disorder. And it is good that you broke away from it because it is sick that any kid who is awkward is being diagnosed with autism or aspergers. 

But don't let your personal experience be what makes your decision on the entire diagnoses. It is a real thing, but MANY with the diagnosis are misdiagnosed. 

All of your arguments point to people telling you the wrong information about what autism and aspergers REALLY are, and just applied it to you. But this whole social awkwardness, reclusive, etc are just broad labels. They are not symptoms. The true symptoms are the neural aspects in which the brain does not process specific kind of information. Sorry that label was slapped on. But it exists.
My question is how many people have you personally worked with with Aspergers? I worked in a mental health center for nearly 5 years, Aspergers being one of the disorders I have worked with. If you genuinely believe it is no different than high intelligence, you clearly have not seen more than a few non severe examples. But I can understand why people would say Aspergers is not actually a real thing because so little is known about it. But you really think Autism is not real? That is a debate you cannot win because that is not just psychology science, that is neurology. 

The ticks that you commonly see on the different autism spectrum of autism is only a symptom. You can see the cause of those results. It is a synapse development disorder. The neurons do not organize and connect normally, resulting in interference with processing information. You say that it is just 'high intelligence'. But what you fail to address is that those with Autism or Aspergers are not overall geniuses. Typically, they have a few things that they are geniuses over. They commonly borderline Sevants, in which they have something specific in which they are a prodigy, but low functioning in almost anything else. 

But you are specifically talking about Aspergers, not autism, so I'll only continue that if you wish.

The fact that you think that Aspergers trait are exactly the same as those with high intelligence are the same (social awkwardness, outspoken, reclusive), you obviously have not been around TRUE Aspergers cases. There are a laundry list of things that happen with Aspergers. It, like autism, is also a hinder on the neuron development that allows information processing. Those symptoms you specified in your video are not even really a part of the psychological diagnosis. First, the high intelligence argument you brought up. Those with aspergers are often high intelligence in specific things, but are often low functioning on most others. Again, they are along the same lines of a Sevant. But when it comes to your more day to day things, they are often severely lacking in capability to learn. I have worked with a case where he knew the latin name for every dinosaur, the time period in which they exist, and any arbitrary detail about all of them. But he could not work out math problems that are 3rd grade level, and he is 13 years old. Aspergers syndrome usually have something as a coping tool. They hone in on it and anything about it just clicks with them like a prodigy. But other things take high level therapy just to get them remotely coherent to the concepts. Their brains literally cannot process the information of other things (even average day to day information).

You specified that their 'social awkwardness' is just the same as a high intelligence person. That is far from it. The problem is that you just define it as social awkwardness, and that is just a massively broad term that applies to anyone who isn't exactly social. But try looking closer at the specifics, and there are differences. Those with autism are often incapable of showing empathy. That isn't just a matter of not being able to talk to people without upsetting them. That is literally unable to comprehend the idea that other people have emotional responses to things. That is why they often do not even realize people are making fun of them or teasing them unless they are using specific words with bad meaning. They take things severely to the literal sense. The ability to apply emotional context to words is severely hindered, even incapable for some, by the processing neurons of the brain. Sarcasm is wasted on them. They can't detect sincerity because they are unable to process emotional context.

Again, your problem is that you are just seeing them as socially awkward. There is a difference between just not being able to relate to others because of interests or comfortable behaviors. This is the inability to show empathy because your brain is unable to process emotional context, making literal words the only thing that makes sense. Everything is taken in the literal sense because it is the only way your brain can process information.

You say outspoken is the same thing as what those with autism deal with. But imagine for a second, obsessive compulsive disorder. Many just think that being a germ free neat freak is OCD, but that is not the case. That is just a common characteristic. Not all with OCD are neat freaks. OCD means that they have compulsive rituals that they obsess over. They cannot focus or function if their ritual is not done. I worked with one kid who had to repeat almost all of his movements 5 times. He would flip off lights 5 times, slip his shoes off and on 5 time, etc. If he had to clear his throat, he had to do it an extra 4 times. If he stubbed his toe, he had to do it 4 more times. If you kept him from completing his compulsive ritual, he could not function because that is all he could think about. He had to complete it to move on. Autism is somewhat similar in that. They have very fixed focus on things. They aren't the same thing as rituals (all the time) but obsessive compulsions, very much. Once they have an expectation, that expectation must be fulfilled. Otherwise, they become obsessive and incapable of processing something different happening. You might see it as outspoken when they begin to make a scene about something that they disagree with. But the difference is simply outspoken is due to being highly opinionated. In Autism, they are not capable of handling something unexpected. Even something small that should not be significant in their life for that day can bring their world crashing down on them. That small detail MUST happen or they cannot move on with the next thing. 

Now, this is getting lengthy, and I can go all day with this. So I'll cut this here and move on to you specifically. You might take offense when I said you have not worked with people with true autism. You mentioned you and some others you knew were diagnosed with autism. You were able to overcome the stipulation by making the conscious decision to not adhere to the common stigma of it. If that is the case, you are either on the more than capable high functioning end of the spectrum or were misdiagnoses. Working in the mental health center, I have seen true cases. But I have also seen the truth that autism is one of the most over-diagnosed thing I have seen. It has become a cop out diagnosis. Parents think that because their kid has some unusual or awkward tendencies, there must be something wrong with them. So they GET them diagnosed. Many are more than willing to say "Oh, this kid fits some of the small characteristics that kids with autism show, so he/she must have autism". That just means they have another client to bill. It is a money game, and it is sickening. 

This over-diagnosing has caused this idea that it is all fake, and it is just horrible for those who truly need the care. You were not one of those cases. You were probably one of the over-diagnosed people. I have seen too many kids diagnosed who shouldn't have been. Many were just kids who needed more active parents (not saying that is your case, just to clarify that). But it shed bad light on the diagnosis for those who have the true condition that cannot be overcome like you did.

What you overcame was stigma and stipulation, not neurological disorder. And it is good that you broke away from it because it is sick that any kid who is awkward is being diagnosed with autism or aspergers. 

But don't let your personal experience be what makes your decision on the entire diagnoses. It is a real thing, but MANY with the diagnosis are misdiagnosed. 

All of your arguments point to people telling you the wrong information about what autism and aspergers REALLY are, and just applied it to you. But this whole social awkwardness, reclusive, etc are just broad labels. They are not symptoms. The true symptoms are the neural aspects in which the brain does not process specific kind of information. Sorry that label was slapped on. But it exists.
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09-22-13 10:05 PM
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I've read your post. I will remain non-argumentative as promised(this sound awkward but whatever). I will, however, answer your maybe-rhetorical question; "My question is how many people have you personally worked with with Aspergers". If you mean worked with as a professional, then none since I've never had a job or graduated college.

Exposure is an entirely different story. I spent my entire education in special day class, where I got to see a decent number of individuals diagnosed with autism. Speaking of which, I feel special education wasted my life. Continuing, I suffered exposure in the most embarrassing ways possible, as you can tell. Since I'm also an obsessed nut who watches autism videos frequently, well, wait this sentence has nothing to do with anything.

I have a crackpot theory; because average people are so much not-smarter than really smart people, the really smart people are viewed as not-smart since average people are too average to realize really smart people are smart. But really smart people baffle the average people by achieving so much. "There has just GOT to be something wrong with them" claims the average people.
I've read your post. I will remain non-argumentative as promised(this sound awkward but whatever). I will, however, answer your maybe-rhetorical question; "My question is how many people have you personally worked with with Aspergers". If you mean worked with as a professional, then none since I've never had a job or graduated college.

Exposure is an entirely different story. I spent my entire education in special day class, where I got to see a decent number of individuals diagnosed with autism. Speaking of which, I feel special education wasted my life. Continuing, I suffered exposure in the most embarrassing ways possible, as you can tell. Since I'm also an obsessed nut who watches autism videos frequently, well, wait this sentence has nothing to do with anything.

I have a crackpot theory; because average people are so much not-smarter than really smart people, the really smart people are viewed as not-smart since average people are too average to realize really smart people are smart. But really smart people baffle the average people by achieving so much. "There has just GOT to be something wrong with them" claims the average people.
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Affected by 'Laziness Syndrome'

Registered: 07-30-13
Last Post: 2755 days
Last Active: 2338 days

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