WHOA!.... and it begins!

the Bible does NOT say that! the verse you are refering to says to not add or take away from the words of the book....

now, when that verse was written, there was no book, namely, there was no bible, the bible became the bible 300 years later.... the book being refered to is the revelation John recieved....

a good way to prove this is in Deuteronomy 4:2 I believe, when Moses says a nearly identical statement. So, do we disregard everything after what Moses says? is the rest of the Bible addition that shouldn't be there? no I think not.

BTW, this whole post is directed at David, not LightKnight, I'll respond to you later, when I've found something about that.... like I said, I couldn't think of anything at the moment....

Originally posted by geeogree

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WHOA!.... and it begins!

the Bible does NOT say that! the verse you are refering to says to not add or take away from the words of the book....

now, when that verse was written, there was no book, namely, there was no bible, the bible became the bible 300 years later.... the book being refered to is the revelation John recieved....

a good way to prove this is in Deuteronomy 4:2 I believe, when Moses says a nearly identical statement. So, do we disregard everything after what Moses says? is the rest of the Bible addition that shouldn't be there? no I think not.

BTW, this whole post is directed at David, not LightKnight, I'll respond to you later, when I've found something about that.... like I said, I couldn't think of anything at the moment....

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I don't understand what your arguing here, are you saying that we CAN add and take away from the bible?

WOW ok, I was like what the heck is he talking about.

Who is Jehova?

Here's a page I found on their beliefs...

http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/Beliefs/their_beliefs.htm



My friends mom is a JW and he says that their sorta like a cult, but maybe it's just certain JW's...

We obsolutly can NOT! Talking about taking away from the Bible. As for the Jehovah, I'll answer that soon. I g2g now.

And another URL...


http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/reasons.html
"Heaven is limited only to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses"
Find that one in the bible for me

well, yes and no.... let me explain....

the point of that verse that John wrote, was not about the entire Bible, but about his revelation. That does not mean that I believe that people can just tamper with the Bible. I think that is wrong as well. However, I do believe that eventhough the Bible may be complete, I do not believe it is the exclusive scripture out there.

The "jews" were only 1 tribe of the house of Israel that exists. There are 10 (or 11, depending on who you ask) tribes that were taken from Israel and scattered among the world. I don't see why they couldn't have made records about possible dealings that they had with God....

Oh, and one other thing. Who wrote books in the Bible? Basically, prophets did. So, it makes sense to me, that if anything was going to be written, it would be done by a prophet.

So, yes teachings from God can be "added", but no one should be changing what is already from God.

Here are the beliefs of Jehova Witnesses on that site I found...



1. Jehovah God is not a Trinity
2. The doctrine of the Trinity is inspired by Satan
3. Jesus Christ is a created being, who at one time did not exist (a.k.a.Michael the archangel)
4. The Holy Spirit is not a person but is "God's active force" i.e. gravity, electricity etc.
5. Heaven is only for select Jehovah's Witnesses
6. Heaven is limited only to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses
7. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians
8. There is no Hell (It is simply the grave)
9. There is no life after death (except for the 144,000)
10. Salvation is by good works not by Grace
11. You cannot be sure of salvation
12. Jesus is not to be worshiped or prayed to
13. Jesus did not rise from the dead bodily but as a spirit being
14. You are discouraged from attending college
15. The "first resurrection" occurred in 1918
16. All pastors are the "Antichrist"
17. All churches are of Satan
18. All governments are controlled by Satan
19. You cannot take a blood transfusion
20. You cannot be a police officer
21. You cannot salute the flag, stand for the national anthem, or own a flag
22. You cannot serve in the military
23. You cannot buy girl Scout cookies
24. You must attend five meetings per week
25. Jesus'second coming occurred in 1914 (only known to Jehovah's Witnesses)
26. You cannot marry a non-Jehovah's Witness
27. If one does not follow the rules of the Watchtower they will be shunned
28. You cannot read Christian literature from a Christian book store
29. You cannot be a cheerleader
30. You cannot celebrate any holidays (Christmas, Easter, etc.)
31. You cannot celebrate your birthday
32. You cannot run for or hold a political office
33. You cannot vote in any political campaign
34. You cannot serve on a jury
35. You are discouraged from giving to charity (except Watchtower causes)
36. You cannot speak to former members who are shunned (disfellowshipped)
37. You cannot accept Christmas gifts
38. You must read and study Watchtower literature regularly
39. Only Jehovah's Witnesses can understand the Bible
40. Angels direct the Watchtower organization
41. Jesus did not die on a cross but an upright pole
42. You cannot own or wear a cross
43. You must report your witnessing activity to the elders
44. You must go from door to door weekly to gain converts
45. You cannot have friends who are not Jehovah's Witnesses
46. You must refer to all Jehovah's Witnesses as "brother" or "sister"
47. You cannot play chess*
48. You cannot understand the Bible without Watchtower literature to explain it
49. A child abuser is reported to Watchtower elders and not the police
50. You must forgo vacations to attend annual conventions
51. You are discouraged from buying a two door car-A "Theocratic" or "spiritually strong" Jehovah's Witness will have a full size car for the door to door work
52. Men cannot wear beards
53. Men must wear short hair
54. Women cannot pray in the presence of men without a hat
55. You cannot have a tattoo
56. You forbidden to use any tobacco products
57. Only officially approved sexual practices are allowed in marriage
58. You must appear before a Judicial committee if you are caught breaking Watchtower rules (Secret files are kept on all members which record these meetings-these files are kept in New York and are never destroyed)
59. You must not own wind-chimes (they are for chasing away evil spirits)*
60. You cannot read any anti-Jehovah's Witness material
61. You cannot use pet foods made with blood or blood products
62. You cannot join any clubs or sports teams
63. You cannot wear jade jewelry*
64. You cannot purchase Christian products (books, music, plaques, pictures etc.)
65. You cannot wear any Christian jewelry
66. Jehovah's Witness meeting places have no windows
67. If you see another Jehovah's Witness breaking the rules you must turn them in to the elders to be interrogated
68. Jesus could have sinned and failed in his mission
69. Jesus was not born the savior but became the savior at his baptism
70. The Watchtower organization is God's prophet on earth today
71. Women must submit to Watchtower elders
72. You cannot support your country
73. One must study Watchtower books at least six months before he can be baptized
74. Before baptism, one must answer over 80 questions in front of a panel of elders
75. Most of The Book of Revelation applies to the Jehovah's Witnesses
76. You cannot celebrate Mothers or Fathers day (it may produce pride)
77. Kingdom Halls cannot have pews for seating
78. JWs are are fobidden to say "good luck"
79. God is not omniscient "all knowing"
80. God is not omnipresent
81. God only speaks through the "Governing Body" in Brooklyn, New York
82. The Holy Spirit is only for select Jehovah's Witnesses
83. The Lord's supper is only to be eaten by select Jehovah's Witnesses (144,000 group-99.99% of Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden from taking the Lord's supper)
84. The Lord's supper can only be offered once per year
85. JWs in times of crisis, are strongly discouraged from consulting with family counselors, including mental health professionals who are not Jehovah's Witnesses
86. Only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon
87. If you have a non-Witness spouse your first loyalty is to the elders over your spouse
88. Jesus was equal to Adam (just a man)
89. Judgment day is 1000 years long
90. If you leave Jehovah's Witnesses or are expelled from the organization you will not be resurrected
91. Only Jehovah's Witness prayers are heard by God
92. Man's salvation is secondary in God's plan; Jesus was sent to "vindicate Jehovah's name"
93. God will destroy all non-Jehovah's Witnesses at armageddon
94. You forbidden to say "God bless you" when someone sneezes.
95. You must never enter a church building
96. You must never attend a church service
97. You cannot be involved in martial arts, boxing or wrestling
98. You cannot participate in a school play
99. You cannot donate blood or your organs when you die
100. You can never question what is printed in Watchtower literature
10l. You are forbidden to attend a funeral of an ex-Jehovah's Witness

wow, I can pick dozens of things in that list that most likely don't have any sort of biblical foundation to them...

but, everything you believe is in the bible.... okay!

Originally posted by geeogree

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the point of that verse that John wrote, was not about the entire Bible, but about his revelation. That does not mean that I believe that people can just tamper with the Bible. I think that is wrong as well. However, I do believe that eventhough the Bible may be complete, I do not believe it is the exclusive scripture out there.

The "jews" were only 1 tribe of the house of Israel that exists. There are 10 (or 11, depending on who you ask) tribes that were taken from Israel and scattered among the world. I don't see why they couldn't have made records about possible dealings that they had with God....

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First why do you think that the verse only refers to Revelation?

Second, what are some of the other tribes you are talking about?

Vash: because there is a verse in the Bible, Deuteronomy 4:2, like I said in a previous post, that says the same thing that the verse in Revelation says. So, to assume that the first one doens't apply, and the Revelation one does, has no basis.

The Deuteronomy verse refers to the law of Moses, and the Revelation one refers to the book of Revelation.

Also, the book of Revelation was not written last, according to scholars. So, we should toss out the Gospel of John, and his later Epistles.

Oh, and again.... the Bible did not become the bible until about 300 years after the last parts were written....

think about it!!

I swear every religious topic resorts to some form of Christianity. O.o ... *clears throat*

All gods are one God.

well, Belial.... the majority of us here are either Christian, or from Christian backgrounds.... we don't really want to all talk about Wicca, or Hinduism, if we know nothing about it.... if we wanted to know, we'd go read about it....

OK befor answering the question about the 144 000. I must say that about a quarter of the JW rules you got of the internet were false or exjajerated. These are the ones that were not totally of track, I could see how they might think that: 16, 24, 43, 67, 77, 84, 89, 90, 99. Th ones that were plan old wrong were: 10, 14, 23, 29, 34, 35, 37, 45, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 58, 62, 66, 71, 72, 74, 75, 79, 85, 87, 91, 95, 98, 100. Boy I never knew how bad the rumors really are. As for the rest, they are Mostly right, and if you want, you may ask why one at the time, and I will show you from the Bible. Well lests say the holidays, sense it has pagan roots we don't celibrate it, so I wouldn't really show with the Bible, I would get proof they are paygan. You know what I mean... but ya I could proove from the Bible every one that I believe in... I might of missed a few though.

Edit: Ok now I'm ready to tell you why I believe there is only 144,000 going to heaven. To make it easier to understand, I divided it into paragraphs; I was kind of hurried doing this so I put mostly only scriptures (From the new world translation; you can look in your copy of the kings James if you want, it’s mostly the same).

Do all good people go to heaven?

Acts 2:34: “David [whom the Bible refers to as being ‘a man agreeable to Jehovah’s heart’] did not ascend to the heavens.”
Ps. 37:9, 11, 29: “Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth . . . The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”
So some will posses the earth.

Must a person go to heaven to have a truly happy future?

I will repeat Ps. 37:11: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”
Rev. 21:1-4: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth . . . I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’”
Mic. 4:3, 4: “They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble; for the very mouth of The Lord of armies has spoken it.”

Is heavenly life set out in the New Testament as the hope for all Christians?

John 14:2, 3: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.” (Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. But he does not here say how many others would also go to heaven.)
John 1:12, 13: “As many as did receive him [Jesus], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (Notice that the context, in verse 11, refers to Jesus’ “own people,” the Jews. As many of them as did receive him when he came to them in the first century became God’s children, with heavenly life in view. The verbs in the text are in the past tense, so this passage is not referring to all people who have become Christians since then.)
Rom. 8:14, 16, 17: “All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (At the time this was written it was true that all who were led by God’s spirit were God’s sons whose hope was that they would be glorified with Christ. But this had not always been true. Luke 1:15 says that John the Baptizer would be filled with holy spirit, but Matthew 11:11 makes clear that he will not share in the glory of the heavenly Kingdom. So, too, after the gathering of the heirs of the heavenly Kingdom, there would be others who would serve God as followers of his Son and yet not share in heavenly glory.)
What specific references are there in the New Testament to a provision for Christians to be rewarded with eternal life on earth?
Matt. 5:5: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”
Matt. 6:9, 10: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (What is God’s will regarding the earth? What do Genesis 1:28 and Isaiah 45:18 indicate?)
Matt. 25:31-33, 40, 46: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. . . . The king will say to them [the sheep], ‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ And the goats will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones [the sheep] into everlasting life.” (Notice that these “sheep” are not the same as the King’s brothers, who are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” [Heb. 2:10–3:1] But these sheeplike ones would be alive during the time that Christ was on his throne and during the time when some of his “brothers” would still be experiencing hardship on earth.)
John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (Who are these “other sheep”? They are followers of the Fine Shepherd, Jesus Christ, but are not in the “new covenant” sheepfold, with hope of heavenly life. Yet they do come to be closely associated with those who are in that sheepfold.)
2 Pet. 3:13: “There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.” (Also Revelation 21:1-4)
Rev. 7:9, 10: “After these things [after the apostle John saw the full number of “sealed” ones who had been “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion; see Revelation 7:3, 4; 14:1-3] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’”
To how many does the Bible hold out hope of heavenly life?
Luke 12:32: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”

So it’s little, how little?

Rev. 14:1-3: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.”

Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?

The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”

Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?

Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.
The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e•no´pi•on tou thro´nou; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33.
The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible. (Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37) . Ok now is there anything else you don’t agree with.

okay, I will challenge you....

#8.... no hell, at all? so, certain people go to heaven, and the rest do what... cease to exist?.... please explain that one to me

oh, and #13 and 15 as well

Ok, # 13 isn't really accurate... we believe he came back in a body first, then went to heaven in a spirit form, you probably believe the same thing, so there’s no need it explaining it to you now, I missed that one, I probably did miss a lot of them, but I’ll tell you when we get to them. And I'll discus #15 in my next post; as for hell…People often forget they have brains when it comes to a topic such as hell. Oh, many persons will ponder on financial or other matters, but when hell is the subject they seem to prefer that someone else do the thinking. They may even push all hope of reasoning aside and declare, as one hell-fire believer did, that if he did not think the Bible taught a literal, red-hot, soul-scorching hell he would throw his Bible into the ash can. That is an extreme case. But it reflects a modern-day tendency to try to make God conform to man’s ideas of how things should be run. These opinionated persons go to the Bible, not to weigh all the evidence, but to pluck out a few texts that seem to support their view of things; and so new religions start. True Christians, however, will “let God be found true, though every man be found a liar.” (Rom. 3:4, NW) That is what we propose to do, appealing, at the same time, to common sense, as we let the Bible answer the question: Is hell hot?
From the frequency of the expression “hot as hell” it is apparent that many people view hell as being red-hot. This view has been fostered by the clergy teaching that hell is a fiery place of eternal torment for human souls. Tons of leaflets teaching a blazing hell have been printed and distributed. If you have read any of these you may have noticed that almost all point to the same four or five “proof” scriptures, such as Jesus’ story of the rich man in hell, the undying worms and unquenchable fire of Mark 9:44, the “everlasting punishment” of Matthew 25:46 and the “lake of fire” five times mentioned in the book of Revelation. We want to examine these texts. But first, to have a thorough look at the subject, let us go to the Hebrew scriptures.
Turning to the book of Genesis, we read about the creation of the earth, seas, fish, animals and even the sun and the moon. Yet nowhere do we read about God’s creating a special underworld compartment for the broiling torment of man. It seems strange that, if he made one, God did not have recorded in the Bible the creation of such an important place as a burning hell. Yet suppose he did make one. Would not Jehovah’s love and justice have moved him to warn Adam of the full penalty of sin? Jehovah told Adam the consequence of sin was death. Are we really to think that, after Adam sinned, Jehovah changed his mind about the death sentence and decided to give Adam the torture treatment? The Bible answers: “I, The Lord, change not.”—Mal. 3:6, AS.
But does not “hell” appear in the Hebrew scriptures? Yes. So let us do the logical thing and pry into the background of that word “hell.” Webster’s unabridged dictionary tells us that hell corresponds to the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades. It also says that hell comes from the English word helan, meaning “to conceal.” So we have found that the early meaning of the word “hell” carried no thought of any kind of heat. It merely meant “concealed.” We have found, too, that the original Hebrew word, usually translated “hell” in English Bibles, is Sheol. Now what does Sheol mean? It simply means “a hollow place.” So the original Hebrew word perfectly corresponds with the original or early meaning of the English word “hell.”
Now that the clergy have put fire into the word “hell,” the vital question is, Did the inspired Hebrew Bible writers say that conscious life and red-hot activity exist in Sheol or hell? No, quite the opposite! Instead of blazing fire it is described as a “land of darkness.” (Job 10:21) Instead of a place of soul-chilling shrieks it is described as a place of “silence.” (Ps. 115:17) The Catholic Douay Bible, at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, says: “The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more. Neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten. Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge, shall be in hell [Sheol, AS], whither thou art hastening.” So, since the “dead know nothing more,” or as the King James Version says, “the dead know not any thing,” it would be impossible for them to know conscious torment. And since there is no work in hell, how can there be activity, red-hot or otherwise?

Now let us examine what Jacob said concerning hell. After hearing that his son had seemingly been killed by a beast, Jacob said: “I will go down to my son into hell [Sheol, AS], mourning.” (Gen. 37:35, Dy) Did Jacob visualize his son in a steaming, scorching fire? And did Jacob expect to go to such a place? Clearly, Jacob did not view hell as being red-hot.
After the prophet Jonah had been swallowed by a big fish, Jonah prayed: “I cried out of the belly of hell [Sheol, AS]: and thou hast heard my voice.” (Jonas 2:3, Dy) Was it red-hot where Jonah was? No, it must have been damp and dark, although warm at fish-body temperature. Jonah spoke the way he did because he understood hell or Sheol to be the grave. For, had not Jehovah delivered him, the fish’s belly would certainly have become Jonah’s grave. If hell were eternal, Jonah would not have gotten out.
Job was a faithful servant of God. Trying to break Job’s integrity, the Devil placed Job in a miserable state of affairs. So the suffering Job prayed to God: “Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell [Sheol, AS], and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (Job 14:13, Dy) Since Job was already being tormented by the Devil, would he pray to be “protected” in, of all places, a Devil-managed compartment of red-hot coals? Hardly! Job would not pray to go from the frying pan into the fire! Job understood hell to be the common grave of mankind where he would rest until the resurrection.
The prophet Amos records Jehovah’s words to those who would try to escape the Almighty’s wrath: “Though they go down even to hell, thence shall my hand bring them out.” (Amos 9:2, Dy) Would the wicked, trying with all their might to flee from the wrath of God, dig into a place that would bring them only red-hot torture?
It has been said that only the children of the Devil go to hell. But if that is true, why did Job pray that he might rest in hell? And if hell were a place just for the wicked, why would God send his Son to hell? For Jesus went to hell and was there three days. At Psalm 16:10 it was prophetically written of Jesus: “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” Centuries later the apostle Peter showed, at Acts 2:31, that Psalm 16:10 had its fulfillment in Jesus, that he did indeed go to hell but that God raised him up out of that condition. So hell could not be eternal.

How does Almighty God look upon the idea of roasting men and women in fire? Well, man is made in the image of God. Yet we would not torture a man or a woman, even for one day! Why, the man who would torture a cat is, we say, a fiend. This is natural, since man does not love fiends; he detests them. Fiendishness repels. It is repugnant to God. For when the Israelites religiously burned their children in fire, Jehovah said: “They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind.” (Jer. 7:31, AS) Fiendishness does not even enter the mind of the Creator. And no wonder, for “God is love.”—1 John 4:8.
Thus far we have learned four things: (1) God detests fiendishness, (2) the good as well as the bad go to hell, (3) hell is not eternal, and (4) the Hebrews viewed hell or Sheol, not as a place of red-hot fire, but as the cold, silent grave.
Turning now to the Christian Greek scriptures, we find that the word translated “hell” and that corresponds to Sheol is the Greek Hades. Does the literal meaning of Hades carry the thought of glowing fire? No, it simply means “the unseen state.” As with Sheol, there are no live people in Hades. “Death and Hades [hell, AV; Dy] gave up those dead in them.” (Rev. 20:13, NW) Since at the resurrection Hades gives up its contents of “dead” people, it is not eternal.

does not the Bible speak of “hell-fire”? Yes, but the word “hell-fire” is not a translation of the Greek Hades. “Hell-fire” is translated from the Greek Gehenna. Gehenna occurs twelve times in the Bible. But the average reader does not know this, since Bible translators have rendered Gehenna as “hell” or “hell-fire.” This has caused a lot of confusion. Says the Encyclopedia Americana (1942 ed., v. 14, p. 81): “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”
Jesus referred to Gehenna at Mark 9:47, 48 (NW): “It is finer for you to enter one-eyed into the kingdom of God, than with two eyes to be pitched into Gehenna [hell fire, AV], where their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” Now Gehenna was a place for dumping refuse, outside the walls of Jerusalem. Its fires were kept burning to prevent pestilence. Sulphur or brimstone was added to help the burning. Bodies of executed criminals, thought to be unworthy of a resurrection, were sometimes thrown into Gehenna. But live persons were never cast there. When bodies or garbage fell upon the edges of Gehenna, the exposed matter would putrefy and breed worms. The worms finally destroyed the matter. So there were always worms and always fire to destroy matter. Jesus used Gehenna as a symbol, not for everlasting torment, but for everlasting destruction.
The “lake of fire” is also a symbolic term for everlasting destruction: “Death and Hades [hell, AV] were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” (Rev. 20:14, NW) So the “lake of fire” means “the second death,” a destruction that lasts forever and ever, with no hope of a resurrection.
Note that hell or Hades is eternally destroyed. For hell, says Revelation 20:14, must be hurled into the “lake of fire.” If hell is the lake of fire, as many say, how can it be cast into itself?
As to the “everlasting punishment” of Matthew 25:46, the original Greek word does not carry the idea of torment but of a cutting off from life. Thus the New World Translation renders it correctly as “everlasting cutting-off.”
But what of Revelation 20:10 about the Devil’s being “tormented day and night for ever and ever”? In Jesus’ time jailers were called “tormenters.” So when the scripture says he will be “tormented day and night for ever and ever” in the “lake of fire,” it means that the Devil will be restrained in a never-ending detention of destruction. Indeed, it will be “for ever and ever.”
The Bible has answered our question. It has shown that Hades, Sheol or hell is the common grave of mankind. At the resurrection hell gives up its dead. Jehovah destroys hell, for it is cast into the “lake of fire.” Gehenna represents the state of destruction that lasts forever and ever. There is no hope of a resurrection for those in Gehenna. So the fiery hells are only pagan hells. The Bible hell (Sheol-Hades) is not hot, but is the dark, silent grave. Now you may not believe that, but to me, I proved it from the Bible, I didn’t say I was going to make you believe it.

[sigh].... I had trouble following your post, since it was so bloody long and drawn out....

however, the way you proved it, does not prove the non-existance of hell (in my opinion) it only proved that hell is not neccesarily the burning lake of fire etc etc that most people think of when they hear hell....

it might be worthwhile to post shorter, so that people can actually read it and take it in, and can have an easier time picking things apart....

but, then again, that might explain why your post is so long

[edit] oh, and the bodily ressurection.... and then spiritual ascension? how do you explain that? I don't believe that.... I believe Jesus has had a physical body of flesh and bones since the day he was ressurected until now.... [/edit]

No you are right we do believe in hell, but not as a place where of live torment. Wait for my edit to answer the jesus' body question.

so what happens to your spirit? do you just cease to exist if you "go to hell"....

Ok, will answer these questions and hope it covers anything about Jesus' body. What happened to the perfect fleshly body of Jesus after his death? Was it preserved so that in time men will look upon it in worship? or does Jesus still have this fleshly body in the heavens, “spiritualized” so that it can be seen and worshiped? Neither. The scriptures answer: It was disposed of by God, dissolved into its constituent elements or atoms.
Jesus was the antitype foreshadowed by Moses, the great mediator and leader of the congregation of Israel. God himself disposed of Moses’ body by burial, and “no man knoweth of his sepulchre”. (Deut. 34:5, 6) Later, one of the Christian writers says that Michael had a dispute with the Devil over the body of Moses. (Jude 9) The Devil desired to get the body of Moses the great leader and to use it as an object of worship to draw the Israelites away from their true invisible Commander and Leader, God. With stronger desire the Devil wanted to obtain the fleshly body of Jesus after his death to induce some to worship it and use it for indecent false religious purposes, thus reproaching God. But he thwarted the Devil’s purpose in both cases by disposing of the bodies of these two faithful men.
Moses’ body returned to the dust by process of decay, as all human bodies do, but not so in Jesus’ case, for it is written: “For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.” (Ps. 16:10, AS; Acts 2:31) So God caused Jesus’ body to disappear, but not corrupt, meaning that it was dissolved, disintegrated back into the elements from which all human bodies are made.—John 20:1-13.
The resurrected Jesus was given a spirit body: “He being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 3:18, NW) “Whom not one of men has seen or can see.” (1 Tim. 6:16, NW) Paul merely caught a glimpse of the glory of Jesus’ spirit body and was blinded. (1 Cor. 15:8; Acts 9:17, 18) At the resurrection of his faithful followers in whom God has cultivated heavenly hopes they will be given, not fleshly, but glorious spirit bodies. We all know what a fleshly body is like. But John says: “Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.”—1 John 3:2, NW.
When Jesus was on earth he was said to be “lower than the angels”. Man is lower than angels. Certainly one who is in the flesh is lower than one who is in the spirit. God often contrasts flesh and spirit. (Ps. 8:4, 5; Heb. 2:9; Isa. 31:3) Could you believe that Jesus Christ, the majestic King of the new world, made higher than all other creation, would remain in a body of flesh? He would be inferior to a spirit and far too limited to accomplish the marvelous things required of such King, among them the destroying of the mighty spirit person Satan the Devil.
A human body requires earthly elements for its continued existence. It is made for the earth and must subsist upon the things produced from the earth. (1 Cor. 15:40, 47; Isa. 45:12, 18) God does not violate his own laws that he has established to govern natural things. Therefore he would not take a human body out of its proper habitation and transfer it to the heavens, the realm of spirit persons.