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Super Smash Bros Melee: Impressive AI!?

 

06-08-14 03:20 PM
Stevie 764 is Offline
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Me here, with a breaking surprise in the horribly flawed AI of Melee. It seems that yesterday, I went to practice as Falco on a level 5 Mr. Game and Watch CPU, and here is a list of some pretty impressive things the AI can do:

- Can read horizontal up-B recoveries and f-tilt/jab punish recoveries often (Against my Falco, and Captain Falcon)
- Can combo often (U-tilt juggle against Falco 3 times starting at ~48-51%) Also did a 4-hit combo that couldn't be escaped, that was probably a d-air > d-tilt > u-air > up-B At maybe atleast 60-70%
- Can read some recoveries very well via U-Smash KO.

I also have been KO'd often by pretty clever read N-airs at ~100%.
I don't really mind him ringing his bell to taunt me unless I am in a bad mood. I actually do get impressed and happy seeing him combo and read ledge punishing. He also caught on to u-tilt juggling, and n-air kills pretty well, using them when I can't even sheild to block. Also, he only n-airs during combo finishers and when he is trying to jump to me, it sometimes actually hits me, even when I sheild.

So guys, try experimenting with level 5-7 Mr. Game and Watch CPUs and see what they can do to you. Most of his combos are done on Pokemon Stadium when I rarely get them on other competitive stages. The u-tilt juggle was found on Final Destination.
Final word: All CPUs suck, but Mr. Game and Watch is sadly the best AI in Melee. Doing occasional combos and doing read kills on ledges and n-air KOs, he is an experimental AI you should practice with. (I've been playing since January this year, and do fairly well, except I can't DI 'cause reflex and reaction on DI is not good enough. I can DI long grab times, though.)
Me here, with a breaking surprise in the horribly flawed AI of Melee. It seems that yesterday, I went to practice as Falco on a level 5 Mr. Game and Watch CPU, and here is a list of some pretty impressive things the AI can do:

- Can read horizontal up-B recoveries and f-tilt/jab punish recoveries often (Against my Falco, and Captain Falcon)
- Can combo often (U-tilt juggle against Falco 3 times starting at ~48-51%) Also did a 4-hit combo that couldn't be escaped, that was probably a d-air > d-tilt > u-air > up-B At maybe atleast 60-70%
- Can read some recoveries very well via U-Smash KO.

I also have been KO'd often by pretty clever read N-airs at ~100%.
I don't really mind him ringing his bell to taunt me unless I am in a bad mood. I actually do get impressed and happy seeing him combo and read ledge punishing. He also caught on to u-tilt juggling, and n-air kills pretty well, using them when I can't even sheild to block. Also, he only n-airs during combo finishers and when he is trying to jump to me, it sometimes actually hits me, even when I sheild.

So guys, try experimenting with level 5-7 Mr. Game and Watch CPUs and see what they can do to you. Most of his combos are done on Pokemon Stadium when I rarely get them on other competitive stages. The u-tilt juggle was found on Final Destination.
Final word: All CPUs suck, but Mr. Game and Watch is sadly the best AI in Melee. Doing occasional combos and doing read kills on ledges and n-air KOs, he is an experimental AI you should practice with. (I've been playing since January this year, and do fairly well, except I can't DI 'cause reflex and reaction on DI is not good enough. I can DI long grab times, though.)
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06-11-14 04:18 PM
TheFadedWarrior is Offline
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Why is it that Melee AI has so many stupid bugs and flaws (they don't even shield, how stupid is that?), but there are some characters that are way OP as AI? Game and Watch is one of them, but Falco also makes one hell of an AI.

I'll try to do what you said. Does it have to be level 5-7 though? 5-7 are too easy
Why is it that Melee AI has so many stupid bugs and flaws (they don't even shield, how stupid is that?), but there are some characters that are way OP as AI? Game and Watch is one of them, but Falco also makes one hell of an AI.

I'll try to do what you said. Does it have to be level 5-7 though? 5-7 are too easy
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06-13-14 07:12 PM
Stevie 764 is Offline
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TheFadedWarrior : You can do level 8 and 9 to see pure grab spam, but for the best AI performance without grab usage, level 5 is the way to go. I have had some AI CPUs do ridiculous things beside the things in the thread post:

Examples include...

• level 4+ Fox AI shine kill when I Falco Phantasm into him at the ledge. shine gimp + Falco = Game Over for him.
• level 5+ Link, Marth, and Roy constantly jabbing me out of approach as Falco, C.Falcon, and a few others.
• Level 9 Mario edgekilled me from ~100% to ~150% a few months ago. Phantasm into his full jab combo. I then up-b to him and get f-tilted. I side-b because I was in ledge range, and I get hit by an inevitable fireball. Then, my up-b finally failed. I was mad for a good 2 hours after that. I'm sorry, but I've never had such slow painful deaths before in Melee, let alone a stupid AI which is the worst playable AI, where Big Rigs takes the cake for having no AI except in the latest version of it.

Scary stuff. I see Falco do stuff to me, but not much. He shines me if I side-b as either space furry (Fox, Falco) into him, and Falco's shine sends people at an angle between 45 and 90 degrees. Perfect for pillaring.

I ACTUALLY remember young link level 5 doing a wavedash on temple. There's already an existing video on YouTube titled with wavedashing SSBM AI. Did it once on me and I noticed he air dodged into the ground at a moment where you can get the best wavedash distance, which is the instant you can act out of a jump.
TheFadedWarrior : You can do level 8 and 9 to see pure grab spam, but for the best AI performance without grab usage, level 5 is the way to go. I have had some AI CPUs do ridiculous things beside the things in the thread post:

Examples include...

• level 4+ Fox AI shine kill when I Falco Phantasm into him at the ledge. shine gimp + Falco = Game Over for him.
• level 5+ Link, Marth, and Roy constantly jabbing me out of approach as Falco, C.Falcon, and a few others.
• Level 9 Mario edgekilled me from ~100% to ~150% a few months ago. Phantasm into his full jab combo. I then up-b to him and get f-tilted. I side-b because I was in ledge range, and I get hit by an inevitable fireball. Then, my up-b finally failed. I was mad for a good 2 hours after that. I'm sorry, but I've never had such slow painful deaths before in Melee, let alone a stupid AI which is the worst playable AI, where Big Rigs takes the cake for having no AI except in the latest version of it.

Scary stuff. I see Falco do stuff to me, but not much. He shines me if I side-b as either space furry (Fox, Falco) into him, and Falco's shine sends people at an angle between 45 and 90 degrees. Perfect for pillaring.

I ACTUALLY remember young link level 5 doing a wavedash on temple. There's already an existing video on YouTube titled with wavedashing SSBM AI. Did it once on me and I noticed he air dodged into the ground at a moment where you can get the best wavedash distance, which is the instant you can act out of a jump.
Vizzed Elite
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06-14-14 11:49 AM
TheFadedWarrior is Offline
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AI wavedashing? Really? Wow. I wonder if wavedashing was even purposely programed into Melee. AI almost never does it, and it's just air dodging into the ground. They slide because each character has their own friction. I'll go google it...

http://smashboards.com/threads/dispute-ended-new-sakurai-intervew-wavedashing-was-intentional.162416/

Yes, apparently wavedashing was intentional. But not completely. "we noticed that you could do that during the development period."
It sounds like it was unintentional, but the beta testers found out you could wavedash. The developers decided to leave it in and make it part of advanced competitive play.

And with your Fox AI shine killing... I don't know how, but Fox AI really know how to use shine (reflector). It's unrealistic. I'll be very close to a Fox when I'll shoot at him (usually I'll shoot Fox's blaster. Fox vs Fox), and he'll use shine and reflect it back at me. Melee's AI are too robot-like. They have no reaction time. You could probably be touching Fox when you shoot at him, and he'll still use his reflector.
AI wavedashing? Really? Wow. I wonder if wavedashing was even purposely programed into Melee. AI almost never does it, and it's just air dodging into the ground. They slide because each character has their own friction. I'll go google it...

http://smashboards.com/threads/dispute-ended-new-sakurai-intervew-wavedashing-was-intentional.162416/

Yes, apparently wavedashing was intentional. But not completely. "we noticed that you could do that during the development period."
It sounds like it was unintentional, but the beta testers found out you could wavedash. The developers decided to leave it in and make it part of advanced competitive play.

And with your Fox AI shine killing... I don't know how, but Fox AI really know how to use shine (reflector). It's unrealistic. I'll be very close to a Fox when I'll shoot at him (usually I'll shoot Fox's blaster. Fox vs Fox), and he'll use shine and reflect it back at me. Melee's AI are too robot-like. They have no reaction time. You could probably be touching Fox when you shoot at him, and he'll still use his reflector.
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06-14-14 12:50 PM
Stevie 764 is Offline
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Stevie 764
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TheFadedWarrior : I did find out how Fox and Falco's AI shines me if I side-b as either character. By looking into what you can put into the black hole, you can get Fox and Falco's side-b in there when you are invincible. It causes a image for the attack to freeze. Touching the side-b when it is in the black hole can hurt you. Therefore, it actually seems to be a projectile for the AI.

Something crazy happened in a level 4 AI Falco only FFA on Battlefield. One CPU was dead, and there are 2 CPUs fighting near the ledge where I got hit from to recover. BOTH CPUs used shine and I was about 1 bowser in distance away and I didn't even get hit, nor did the AI hit each other. From team battles, atleast twice every stock, my opponent is running right past my teammate ignoring him to attack me, while my partner tries to chase. Brawl's AI does that way far too much, because when there's one human in play, the AI will lockstep with each other to attack you and only you.

But back to melee AI, they apperently try to reflect your side-b which is aforementioned above. For more ridiculous CPUs, try level 8-9 Yoshis, level 9 Fox & Falco, level 9 Ice Climbers, or even Marth & Roy at level 7-9. Those CPUs know how to anger you way worse than you can do to them. Yoshi uses Egg Lay and his grab, but both animations are so similar it's impossible before it's too late. For Yoshi, almost everytime he Egg Lays you, he'll throw an egg at an angle which is inevitably the area you will mash out at, where it could be rumored at level 9 Yoshis that they can somewhat read you with their Egg Throw after they Egg Lay. Fox & Falco go too far with d-throw into shine. If you can even roll tech fast enough against Fox, you're okay from taking 5% more damage. I don't ever see Falco do d-throw. Fox also attempts to shine when he f-throws or even does a back throw. He fired his own blaster with his grab, and it's screwed up how he shines in that case. Prepare yourself for Ice Climbers, though.

I also noticed that the AI actually can tech. If they are hugging a wall and you attack them where they would normally tumble. I notice this with Fox and Falco easily if they are using up-b to go up and you attack as they attempt. It's fourside where it happens with both.

I remember level 5 Mario doing an up-b wall cancel on Pokemon Stadium during the rock stage. Still made it back even after he wall jumped. Up-b wall jump is a 4-frame time window in competitive play that can save Mario on Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams and even done for fun on Fourside or either Mushroom Kingdom stage between the walls for practice.
TheFadedWarrior : I did find out how Fox and Falco's AI shines me if I side-b as either character. By looking into what you can put into the black hole, you can get Fox and Falco's side-b in there when you are invincible. It causes a image for the attack to freeze. Touching the side-b when it is in the black hole can hurt you. Therefore, it actually seems to be a projectile for the AI.

Something crazy happened in a level 4 AI Falco only FFA on Battlefield. One CPU was dead, and there are 2 CPUs fighting near the ledge where I got hit from to recover. BOTH CPUs used shine and I was about 1 bowser in distance away and I didn't even get hit, nor did the AI hit each other. From team battles, atleast twice every stock, my opponent is running right past my teammate ignoring him to attack me, while my partner tries to chase. Brawl's AI does that way far too much, because when there's one human in play, the AI will lockstep with each other to attack you and only you.

But back to melee AI, they apperently try to reflect your side-b which is aforementioned above. For more ridiculous CPUs, try level 8-9 Yoshis, level 9 Fox & Falco, level 9 Ice Climbers, or even Marth & Roy at level 7-9. Those CPUs know how to anger you way worse than you can do to them. Yoshi uses Egg Lay and his grab, but both animations are so similar it's impossible before it's too late. For Yoshi, almost everytime he Egg Lays you, he'll throw an egg at an angle which is inevitably the area you will mash out at, where it could be rumored at level 9 Yoshis that they can somewhat read you with their Egg Throw after they Egg Lay. Fox & Falco go too far with d-throw into shine. If you can even roll tech fast enough against Fox, you're okay from taking 5% more damage. I don't ever see Falco do d-throw. Fox also attempts to shine when he f-throws or even does a back throw. He fired his own blaster with his grab, and it's screwed up how he shines in that case. Prepare yourself for Ice Climbers, though.

I also noticed that the AI actually can tech. If they are hugging a wall and you attack them where they would normally tumble. I notice this with Fox and Falco easily if they are using up-b to go up and you attack as they attempt. It's fourside where it happens with both.

I remember level 5 Mario doing an up-b wall cancel on Pokemon Stadium during the rock stage. Still made it back even after he wall jumped. Up-b wall jump is a 4-frame time window in competitive play that can save Mario on Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams and even done for fun on Fourside or either Mushroom Kingdom stage between the walls for practice.
Vizzed Elite
Vizzed's former Osu! player and TASer


Affected by 'Laziness Syndrome'

Registered: 05-28-10
Location: Enfield, CT
Last Post: 2860 days
Last Active: 2854 days

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