A lot of people whom don't think for themselves believe that there are 10 things you can do that are "Good". Everything else is "Evil" read Leviticus. (If you breathe the wrong way, your blood be upon you and you will be stoned.)

Everyone else realizes that there are 2 Categories of Experience that you can fit in; Love your Neighbor as though he or she were yourself. (Note, it does not say "Love your Neighbor UNLESS SHE IS PAGAN." or "Love your Neighbor UNLESS HE IS GAY.")
and second; Love your Divinity with all your heart and mind.

The second one means you shouldn't have to "believe" ANYTHING. All you can do is "Know". If you "Believe in God", then you do not Love God. If you do not Love God, you are breaking God's Greatest Commandment. If you do not Know God, you have no purpose claiming any Theism or Theology. Your heart isn't in it.

That's greater than keeping holy some outdated and outmoded Sabbath that didn't even fall on a Gregorian Calendar.


-Edit-

Sorry, everyone. I just have to add this in here...
In response to Zylo;
[BUT if you were trying to talk to an oak tree on the other hand and the oak tree said, LOVE ME BE ONE WITH ME I WILL HELP PROTECT YOU, I WILL GIVE YOU PEACE, and it was the devil talking in actuality you would be much more inclined to listen to him. That is how the devil gets most of his devotees.]

He gets most of his Devotees by being nice to them when they try to talk to trees? If you're trying to talk to a tree, There's something already wrong with you. ;D

[Lucifer means "the morning star”]

...AaaaaaAAAAaaaAAAAaaand; LUCIFER was mentioned ONCE, ONLY ONCE, in the bible. Where? I'll TELL you where! "Lucifer" was mentioned in reference to THE PLANET VENUS. Now, go read the book again, and look for another "Lucifer" that doesn't mention Venus, and I'll believe anything you have to say.

I never said Lucifer in the first place, but are you referring to this:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


But I have heard Zylo's point of Satan being beautiful. But I havne't studied too much about it, so not sure if it is entirely true.

I will make my one comment on that pile of bulls*** Zylo, and you should feel ashamed for walking right into it:

So, your saying that it is Satan talking to me as the tree huh? So how do you know that it wasn't Satan talking to Moses from the burning bush? Or did you forget about the burning ush talking to him... my gods, it mentions talking plants in the Bible!

Also, as to the comment about not being able to prove the Ice Age was natural and global warming is man-made: You've never taken a geology class have you? The Earth has gone through many ice ages, the "Ice Age" being the biggest and most well known one. We're actually due for another one to be honest. What's next, you're going to tell me that earthquakes being caused by movement of tectonic plates is a lie as well? Get real.

Actually... And let me reiterate for everyone here...
I am a Christian. The only difference between you and I is that I actually THINK about the things in the bible, and put them into perspective.

The burning bush that spoke to Moses actually WAS Satan, or as he was referred to by one of his alternate names; "Elohim". The True God of Jesus is referred to only as "Theos" (or "Kurios"). Read the Original Hebrew Bible if you don't believe that.

Second: The Ice Age was natural and real, and it's accounted for in the bible as well. The End of the last Ice Age 10,000 years ago occurred at the same time as the Great Flood.

I hate being only 26 and knowing things that... you know, stuff most popes don't know. And they're like 90 or whatever.

The way I have heard it from a college professor that has studied the language is that in the Hebrew there is one word for God, one word for Lord, and one for LORD. Care to explain that one Lowell?

the flood was not 10000 years ago.... and the burning bush was not satan.... you're skewed ideas about the Bible sound almost as bad as Lightknight's....

and telling us that you think you know a whole bunch of stuff that most popes don't know makes you sound way too arrogant and makes me not believe most of the crap that comes out of your mouth

-The way I have heard it from a college professor that has studied the language is that in the Hebrew there is one word for God, one word for Lord, and one for LORD. Care to explain that one Lowell?

Your college professor speaks only from recent history, religion as churches teach it, recent hebrew, and hebrew as written in the bible. He doesn't take into account that at the time of the Old Testament (That's BC Era) that "Lord" could have meant something different to those people than it means to your average christian on the street. And it did. Lord meant YHWH, the regional manager of the Hebrew Lands, a member of the Anasazi group, assigned most likely to teach Humankind basic crafts and skills. To them, Lord was a physical person that you touch, and they saw him almost Everyday.

If any College Professor attempted to go public that he believed in a theory as radical as this one sounds, he would immediately be stripped of his position in an educational institution, because it doesn't "Line up" with what society believes. Likewise, when anyone in a position of any importance tries to bring attention to underwater pyramids, or pyramids in the thick of jungles, similar things happen, but the truth is there.

Geeogree-
I didn't say the burning bush was Satan until someone else mentioned it.
And yes, the flood WAS 10,000 years BC, or almost 12,000 years ago, corresponding to the end of the last ice age. Look it up. Science has it well documented, the era of "the flood" and "recession of the glaciers", as well as the fact that water from that flood still flows in our oceans.

I'm arrogant because I'm right. I deserve to be arrogant, as well, because I actually put THOUGHT and RESEARCH into my beliefs, AND because everyone else who pretends to be Christian on this site is arrogant with their beliefs (which they put neither THOUGHT or RESEARCH into). So I'll stop being arrogant when everyone else does.

That's all I have to say about that.

I'm not arrogant, at least I don't try to be.

Coming back to what you said. If I remeber correctly when Moses asked God what His name was God replied with "I AM." When we translated it into English we put the extra because it would sound kidna weird. I may be thinking of a different point in the Bible though. But I know it is in the Old Testament.

Originally posted by Belial

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Originally posted by Zylo

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I suppose I've already said all I should about being wary about where you get your super natural power. I choose not to believe that tree's have spirits and can talk. Does each individual weed have a spirit? I think when you delve into that kind of thing it opens up doors for satanic activity.

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Now, THAT is comedy. Your Satan trying to decieve us through -nature-? Nothing we do is 'supernatural', however it IS natural. Would it scare you to hear that you have the ability as well? Although once you question something, you lose your faith in it, so chances are, you are very brainwashed to believe that anything a Pagan does is 'evil'. Keep in mind we know we do not do evil. Helping one suceed in what they need to succeed has nothing to do with evil. Also, keep in mind that we do not believe in your God, or its counterpart, Lucifer.

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To Belial I will say this. I just don't draw my conclusions from the bible and what other people tell me. I've talked to Wiccans, and people who have naturalist religions (not druidic in particular) Who Now know they were actually getting their power from Satan. Now then, the point I was trying to make is that the devil gets at you from indirect ways. You and Elara should explecify What has a spirit and what doesn't. And what constitutes having a spirit so you can talk to them. If you can communicate with a tree telepathically then don't you think you could do so with other humans? It seems to me like you should communicate with something that could give you feedback. I don't think I'm brainwashed, I just realize the potential for death & Destruction. And since you don't believe in GOD or the Devil. How do you think the world got here? Just curious.


For Elara I will say that the bible also talks about a talking ass and no regular ASS can talk. God was speaking through the ASS. AND despite what your geology class tells you all of it is pretty much theories. They have no real clue on what happened. Carbon dating is pretty bogus (they take bones out of freshly killed seals and they date at 30,000 years) I believe the earth is not even close to a million years old. When scientists make statements like "It was the driest year that the UK experienced for 750 years" THEY ARE FULL OF CRAP. Most of them just pretend they know what they are talking about, and state their theories as fact. IE the Long Neck Dinosaur. All the proof we have of Human Evolution could fit in the back of a car. There are no real evolutionary jumps, like a fish growing lungs, or a starfish growing eyes. There are no Links. You basically flamed me Elara, then started talking Bogus theory crap. IF you say the stages of the Earth are Cytrical, then how do we know its our Aerosol cans that are heating up the earth?

Lastly it sounds like Lowell has some pretty radical ideas. I think you should expand on your topics and try to explain your theories... I'm interested, you can help enlighten us all.

Please point out to me in my last point where I mentioned carbon dating or evolution at all. Oh, look, I didn't. You're just spouting out a bunch of stuff to try to get me to flame you and it's not going to work Zylo, so quite trying. Also, what the heck is with the comment about the long neck dinosaur (which one? There was more than one you know).

It seems that it is pointless to try and explain anything to you because if it is remotely based on scientific research you call it bulls***. Perhaps if you took the classes you'd learn, but you chose to remain ignorant, so it's like arguing with a broken record. CFCs react with the ozone layer and weaken it. It's been 4 years since I took a chemistry class, so I forgot exactly how it happens, but I'll get back to you on that.

As for the things with a spirit: I look at it like this, there is natural energy in all things. Call it what you like, electromagnetic energy, souls, spirits, etc, whatever. It's there. There is a higher state which living things have. I'm sure you know the classification of what makes something living, however if you do not I can post the classifications. Anywho, these living things (Plants and animals. Rocks are made of minerals, which are not living. So neither rocks nor minerals are alive. Same goes for water.) can be communicated with. I can talk to Pocket's cats. I may not be able to have a philisophical discussion with them, but I can communicate with them. It's an empathy thing with me. Same goes with plants, though it's harder to communicate with plants than with animals. It is why we thank the plant for it's sacrifice when we take leaves or any other part of it for our needs (food, medicine, spells, etc).

There are many Christian Druids and Wiccans in the world just so you know. And they feel that when they talk to nature, they are talking to God. After all, God has talked to his people through nature before, so why should he stop now. You need to shift your paradigm and look at it from that way. Nature is not good, nor is it evil. Nature is neutral. It can heal and it can harm, it feeds and it kills, makes and destroys. Because it is different than what you've been exposed to, you see it as evil. You talk to people who were not strong in the Wiccan faith and most likely only tried to follow it to rebel from society, or because it was a popular fad (which is was and still is to a degree sadly).

As to how things came to being, that is a question that is hard to answer just like it is for any average person. What I think and what Belial thinks may be different. My own theory is one that I feel is right, and answers the questions for me. I will be honest with you, I believe in evolution. I do not feel that I need to explain to you why I do, but it just makes the most sense to me. As to before that: I believe in a Great Spirit, who manifests itself in the opposite polarities of the Goddess and the God (not to be confused with the Judeo-Christian GOD). I think that the Great Spirit is the universe, that it is everywhere, in everything. I think that the planets and stars are part of it and that the Goddess and God, exploring their creativity, gave life to organisms in the vast ocean of Earth long ago, and allowed for the creatures to grow and evolve, watching as their creations became what they are today. So there you have it, my believes are a combination of creationism and scientific ideals. I don't really know much about the Big Bang Theory or any others, so I can't really say I believe them.

First of all I was stating points not trying to say you said somthing that you didn't. The things I mentioned were pertanent to my point. I think the Dino I was talking about was the Brontasauras, or somthing like that. I do think alot of the textbooks are full of BS. But before I totally flame somthing I do look at it. I've probably spent more time listening to people talk about creation/evolution more than anyone. Not that that makes me qualified. But when I brought that stuff up, my point was you can't believe everything you learn in a Chemistry class. Take it with a grain off salt.

Of course you can mention Scientific research, just don't treat it as a fact untill it has been proven so. Like I said before, I think certain things humans do CAN affect the earth, but we are like small ants. We humans are pretty full of ourselves in thinking its all about us, and that we have everything learned and found out. I think that mother earth can easily take whatever we can dish out. (Not to say we shouldn't treat the earth nicely)

As for talking with animals and plants... I think we've hashed that one out to completion. I DO think alot of Wiccans get into it to rebel from society, like there parents want them to grow up in christianity and they go rebel. There are alot of beliefs on HOW god talks to a person. In a book called "Desicion making and the Will of god" It basically says that When god talks to you, you know that its god. There is no doubt. Why would god not let you know? Is he not powerful enough? And do you think if he has somthing he wants you to hear there is somthing you can do about not hearing? Well thats the main point in the book.

As for creation, from a secular world view I think there are too many Perfect creations, Too much harmony and unitry for there not be be a creator. The Flood in the old testament can explain many of the things why scientists think the world is so old. There are many, many Scientists who don't think the world is even CLOSE to a 100,000 years old. It has in no way been proven the earth is millions and trillions of years old. They get suppresed and laughed off the stage (so to speak) The hydrogen Shell many people think surrounded the earth can explain the reasons that scientists think the world is so old. This has already been discussed in a thread in the debate forum. So I guess it comes down to looking at the facts, and agreeing to disagree.

I am an Episcopal.


That's like Catholic Light, haha

Ha, Catholic light... never heard them called that before.

Anywho, Zylo, agreeing to disagree works fine by me. We're never going to get anywhere with this since both of us believe firmly in our opinions, so it is better this way.

LOl And we don't have to get soo worked up. But just for the record... I'm right

wow, I'm really starting to think this thread has run it's course....

I figure, if people want to talk about Pagan topics.... there is now a forum for it.... ask questions in there...


and if people want another christian thread.... then a new one can be started here or in debate....

a fresh start is probably better

*closey*

[edit] anyone has a problem with this.... PM me about it [/edit]