so, I'm only insane if I talk to myself?

news flash... everyone talks to themselves... and most of them do it out loud too....

and you are right, you don't.... but I never said God had an accent....

and you have to admit that the accent comment was damn funny

I did not intend it to be humorous, but I understand from an outside perspective how it could be seen as funny. However you called my connection to trees and speaking ot them a load of BS. You don't know anything about that connection so claiming that it's BS is insulting.

the fact that you talk to trees is insulting to me.... so feel free to dislike it all you want....

I still think it is BS and neither of us have proof that you can do it.... nor will anyone have enough proof that someone will believe that you do it...

well, only newbie pagans or something

so Gee, are you just an insulting bastard by nature or did you have to work at it?

How is the fact that I feel a connection to trees and nature insulting to you? That's just stupid on so many levels it's not even funny.

see, "connecting with nature" is okay.... it's the idea that you can talk to trees that I find totally asinine

HMMMMM Indeed, I talk to my... MOM and I also end of yelling at my t.V. Screen when I'm getting my ass kicked on Halo. But no, they don't talk back to me. Tree's don't have spirits... They have energy in the fact that all living things OR absolutely everything has kinetic or potential energy. I thought the line was funny... Didn't think Geo was too insulting...

Lets say if you can talk to trees then can you talk to a computer? What gives tree's a spirit so they can talk? They are a living sentiment? Sounds pretty crazy I'll go home and try though.

THE LITTLE TREE PEOPLE ON PRINCESS MONONOKE ARE TAKING ME AWAY!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHhh wheres my chainsaw? JK but is it wrong to cut tree's down then Belial since we don't have dominion over them? Are you using a wood desk right now?

There is a difference between the energy coming from a computer, than the energy that life has, whether that life is a tree, a blade of grass, a human, or any other animal. Rocks and stones have their own kind of magick.

As for cutting down trees and such: It is wrong if it is for the wrong reasons. You don't cut down a tree for the hell of it. You would use it, then recycle it. Everything goes back to the earth at some point in time.

Any energy coming from a computer would be electronic: Electrons are negative particles which cause harmful electro-magnetic fields when they are channeled through circuits, most especially those found in screens and monitors that have CRT(Cathode-ray tubes). LCD screens are the healthier option.

Energy that comes from lifeforms such as humans and trees and animals and plants is organic, an energy field caused by impulses travelling through "wetware"; neural receptors, muscle tissue, and the brain. All living things have a locally contained energy field which doesn't immediately affect it's environment but can be affected by things like harmful electro-magnetic fields, or other organic energy fields (in such practices as reiki).

Just thought I'd clarify all that.

Thank you Lowell, at least someone has some sort of understanding about energy.

Pockets, just ignore him. It seems painfully obvious that many people on this board will insult any religion that is remotely different than their own because they do not understand it and refuse to try. We talk to trees and animals and nature in general, they talk to an invisible "God" in the clouds. Of course, they don't see it that way, they see it as talking to someone, just as we see talking to nature that way. So we seem to be at a dead end. Of course, at least we don't insult them for praying, but then again we accept other people's choice to follow their own path.

My, it does feel nice to speak my mind on that.

Re: God made man with Dominion...

Perhaps this is the great test...
We are greater than all other animals by our reasoning power, and by our long-term-memory, and by our traditions...

If we can learn to live spontaneously against all tradition, then we pass the test. (IE:Clothing happened because of sin, therefore to cast away sin, one must learn to cast away clothing!)

I mean: Perhaps we are more complicated, just to see if we can choose to NOT destroy our ecosystem. We have traditionally made giant corporations and societies which have hundreds of ways to destroy the ecosystem, by taking too much, by wasting too much, and ruinning too much... But if we can learn to banish, to cast aside these impoverishing systems of tradition... Then maybe that will be the test...

If we have intellect enough to see our mistakes, and reason enough to realize that we can change our fate (the destruction of the world), then we need to step up and take responsibility, and actually do the drastic things that will affect our ecosystems for the better!

In closing: Dominion over all the earth does NOT mean that we are supposed to destroy it. It means that we are capable of each destroying, repairing, altering, and creating the ecosystem that is our planet.

Dominion is what a Monarch has. A Good King has the goodwill of his people at the forefront of his mind, always, or else he finds a knife in his back. Therefore, he does good, and so should we!

Ha its been along time since I looked at this thread...

First thats a decent answer about the "energy a computer has, or put out" But what constitutes if somthing is living? A rock? I'm not trying to bash your religion ELARA, I know enough people do it already. I think that it is "wrong" and I am entitled to my opinion. There are many numerous and complex reasons why talking to god is different than talking to a tree. The two main ones in my mind are this. One time a person in our church got a tumor, We all went up there and prayed for her. Later that day when they anyalized her it was gone. Miricles do happen every day. I used to have a Sunday school teacher who was really in tune with the holy spirit. It would guide her in alot of things, and tell her alot of things. SHE KNEW exactly what was going on in everyone of the students lives, including mine, things my parents didn't know. Secondly, no tree has written a book thats infallible and hasn't been able to be proven wrong in.... A long time. My Science teacher always said people prove things by trying to disprove them(like when they were trying to all disprove newton about his theories, they ended up just proving he was write) They do experiments to disprove peoples theories. People have tryed for hundreds of years to do this with the bible... I did a report on it once. Most of the people who try, and FAIL don't even make public what they find. But it is all out there... yes indeed, perhaps I will scan my report.

My only thoughts on our effect on things is this, we are not as big and powerful as we think we are. I feel strongly that as of yet the human race has effected the earth very little. I think the earth is very very powerful and we have to much self importance. What you ask? The world is getting warmer? Well 10,000 years ago N. America was covered in Glaciers so those cavemen must have been using some potent arosol. Even with the oil tanker spills, if you give it time everything will be repaired back to normal, The earth is a wonderful creation.

I guess one more comment, Jesus walked the earth... There are credible non-biased accounts that Jesus did RISE FROM THe dead. There are credible accounts that he was crucified. God is more than clouds (Jeez Elara, insulting my religion again?)

I never said that Jesus was not real. I believe he is a historical figure, as to more than that, I do not know. I also didn't say that God was clouds, I said in the clouds since it seems to be a held notion that God is up above and when ever you see Heaven depicted it is in the clouds.

You know, I could get really techical about the tree writing a book since books are made of paper and paper comes from trees... but I think I will remain content to point out that humans wrote the Bible, not God. Unless you are saying that God miraculously appeared wrote every word himself, he did not write it. In fact, arent there books written by John, Mathew, etc? Are you saying that they did not write them? Please be more careful with your symantics.

Case in point: For Pagans, our gods are in nature, they ARE nature. Your faith healing is the same that we get from channeling energy from natural things (like trees). Animism is a very ancient concept and I doubt that you really know much about it, therefore I understand that you don't really know the meaning behind my words... but I try. I have healed people through my magick just like you have through prayer, the methods are slightly different, but what we are doing is pretty much the same thing.

I'm a biology major, so I do know about the scientific theory and that you cannot do experiments to prove theories, only disprove them. It is known that the Bible cannot be proven nor disproven. As for the human's effect on the earth, the Ice Age and it's end were naturally occuring. Modern polution is deteriorating our ozone layer, which is our protection from the UV rays of the sun, that was not something that happened before. It would take entirely too long for me to fully explain the greenhouse effect and ozone depletion, so I will just say this: Mother Earth is indeed very strong, and in time could heal herself... but the only way that that could happen is if we stop destroying it. Our continuous pollution and introduction of CFCs (chloroflorocarbons, the things in aresol cans that deplete the ozone layer) into our atmosphere is preventing the Earth from healing. It's like saying that you can heal a wound when you are constantly picking off the scab and making it bleed more. It won't heal until we stop, and even then there will still be a scar.

Ever notice that Satanism isn't really GOOD for anything except pissing off the Christians? That's all you're really doing if you join a satanist group. It's like someone inventing an Anti-science group that tries to pass commercial theories in science magazines based on complete lies that are practically the opposite of real theories. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if science actually does find out that they had everything backwards anyways). Anybody who says you worship Satan (Satan being a Christian Divinity akin to Buddhism's Shiva), is simply saying that you're Anti-christian.

But then, 9/10ths of Christians actually follow the Torah instead of understanding anything about Jesus. (ie: follow the 10 commandments instead of Jesus's 2 commandments). Jesus said "Disrespect your family by leaving them forever, and live the nomadic lifestyle."... How many Christians have you seen doing that?

Originally posted by Elara

---

Zylo, I know you don't mean to offend people but you did. It is the one thing that royally pisses me off when someone says that I worship Satan. There is no Satan in my view... besides, that is what Satanism is for. And before you even say one word, no it is not related to Wicca or Druidry and any Pagan would be deeply offended by what you said. How would you like it if I said you were the one following Satan? Not a nice thing to say now is it?

---

Lowell you forgot that Jesus said to love everyone, so you wouldn't really disrepect them if you were supposed to love them and do unto them as they would have them do unto you.

I think the part you are talking about Jesus is emphasizing that he is the Way and that if someone gets between you and Him it would be very bad for you. But that is just my interpretation. As for the nomadic part you are pretty much right. But it would be quite difficult to do today.

But I read this in a book the other day (you guys may want to read it it's called The Story We find Ourseleves In, by Brain D. McLaren, even the non-Christians may want to take a loot) I don't really agree with everything it says but it does have a point about the nomadic part. Remember Cain and Abel? What was Cain? A farmer. Where was Abel killed? A field. The author was saying that people started relying less on God because they didn't have to think about where their next meal was coming from like they did as nomads. And that property is often fought and killed over. (Remember Air Jordans when they came out? Starter Jackets? etc.)

Oh and Zylo remember there may not of even been 10,000 years ago. And to anyone else that is wondering what I mean if you believe there is a 10,000 years ago then you should believe there is a 70,000,000 years ago, just going back that far we find some scientific problems. Just to name onme the moon is supposedly going farther and farther away from the earth. 70,000,000 years ago it would of been so close it would of flooded the world twice daily. There is interesting evidence for both sides if you really look. As for what I think I am not sure either way really.

Oh and Lowell knowing what I know about you, you would probably like The Story We Find Ourselves In.

I might. You might like that book called "Ishmael". Talks a lot about "Cain" and "Abel" and the Agriculturalists vs. the Shepherders.

The way you think Lowell I really think you would like what the guy says in the book and how he thinks certain things are.

I think a lot of Christians get it wrong.

Originally posted by Lowell

---

Ever notice that Satanism isn't really GOOD for anything except pissing off the Christians? That's all you're really doing if you join a satanist group. It's like someone inventing an Anti-science group that tries to pass commercial theories in science magazines based on complete lies that are practically the opposite of real theories. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if science actually does find out that they had everything backwards anyways). Anybody who says you worship Satan (Satan being a Christian Divinity akin to Buddhism's Shiva), is simply saying that you're Anti-christian.

But then, 9/10ths of Christians actually follow the Torah instead of understanding anything about Jesus. (ie: follow the 10 commandments instead of Jesus's 2 commandments). Jesus said "Disrespect your family by leaving them forever, and live the nomadic lifestyle."... How many Christians have you seen doing that?

Originally posted by Elara

---

Zylo, I know you don't mean to offend people but you did. It is the one thing that royally pisses me off when someone says that I worship Satan. There is no Satan in my view... besides, that is what Satanism is for. And before you even say one word, no it is not related to Wicca or Druidry and any Pagan would be deeply offended by what you said. How would you like it if I said you were the one following Satan? Not a nice thing to say now is it?

---

---

Actually it would be Hinduism's Shiva, and he is actually still respected in the Hindu pantheon even though he is the one that will destroy the world. Buddhists believe in no gods. I do agree with you partially though, since that is the major thing that Satanists do. It still bugs me to call me Satan-worshiper though, since it's saying that I worship an evil diety of a religion I don't believe in.

Ahem ahem,

As to what Elara says about how we are scarring nature... I think the human race is a whole bunch of pipsqueaks compared to the earth. You can't judge the earth by our limited history. I am pretty sure you can't make claims that the ICE AGE was a natural cycle and that global warming today is man made. It is unproven and unlikely. Whenever there is a report about how 3 miles have been added to the ice shelf in the N. Pole you don't hear about it...

I suppose I've already said all I should about being wary about where you get your super natural power. I choose not to believe that tree's have spirits and can talk. Does each individual weed have a spirit? I think when you delve into that kind of thing it opens up doors for satanic activity.

Here is a theoretical; lets say if you try opening yourself up for a divine being to talk to you.... And the devil shows up and starts talking to you. He says I AM THE DEVIL WORSHIP ME!!!. Now you would probably run away. BUT if you were trying to talk to an oak tree on the other hand and the oak tree said, LOVE ME BE ONE WITH ME I WILL HELP PROTECT YOU, I WILL GIVE YOU PEACE, and it was the devil talking in actuality you would be much more inclined to listen to him. That is how the devil gets most of his devotees. He is the master deceiver. Lucifer means "the morning star” SO when he was an angel he was very beautiful and majestic. I would suppose he could still appear in the same guise today. The bible says if you believe and trust in him then he will protect you from the devil.

As for the BIBLE. So you say it can't be proven or disproved... Well if everything that people can check on HAS been checked on then I would say it’s true. Like all the old cities and the bricks of Jericho. References to the round earth... God himself didn't write it, but it was divinely inspired by god.

In an off topic little rant, Earlier in the debate forum I said that Tolkien used alot of Moral points, and political points in the LotR. You responded and said there was absolutely no allegory. I looked and couldn't find my original post but V V V V that is ELARA

*****Actually, the Lord of the Rings was not based on the Bible. That would make it allegory, and Tolkein abhorred allegory*****

First off all I didn't say anything about Allegory. After you quoted him writing that he abhorred allegory I looked it up and it was true. THEN afterwards, right afterwards he said that he believed that writers shouldn't shove it down the readers throat and they should be led to make their own conclusions. SO in my conclusion it seems to me THAT tolkien does have political points and moral points and War mongering points in LotR. He just let the reader find it themselves. It is written in the prelude to the hobbit. I will have to try to find the exact text. SOOOO I think you took your quote out of context about tolkien hating allegory since he knew of its existence....


As for most of the Christians following the torah... That’s an interesting way to put it. I think most of the Old Testament is still relevant, and the Ten Commandments are a good code to go by. It also establishes exactly what sin is. BUT Jesus did establish a new covenant.

Yeah. Most Christians do follow the Ten Commandments(except keeping the Sabbath). But like you have said and has been pointed out Jesus established the two new commandments. nine out of the Ten are more or less in the two that Jesus gave. Think about it not killing, stealing, etc. all go with Love your neighbor as yourself.

Originally posted by Zylo

---

I suppose I've already said all I should about being wary about where you get your super natural power. I choose not to believe that tree's have spirits and can talk. Does each individual weed have a spirit? I think when you delve into that kind of thing it opens up doors for satanic activity.

---

Now, THAT is comedy. Your Satan trying to decieve us through -nature-? Nothing we do is 'supernatural', however it IS natural. Would it scare you to hear that you have the ability as well? Although once you question something, you lose your faith in it, so chances are, you are very brainwashed to believe that anything a Pagan does is 'evil'. Keep in mind we know we do not do evil. Helping one suceed in what they need to succeed has nothing to do with evil. Also, keep in mind that we do not believe in your God, or its counterpart, Lucifer.